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Advance tickets and connecting trains
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Firstly, the Clacton trains and some Ipswich trains are also reservable.
Secondly, at what point is a journey a "local" one. Chelmsford is still 30 miles from London. That is more than sufficient distance for it to be reasonable to restrict someone to a particular train. It is particularly important in the direction towards the other service as if you were to have more freedom to travel on any train, you may choose to take a tighter 'connection' and miss the other service. Who then has the liability for that missed connection?
Finally, it should be noted that some operators use reservable services to 'block' through advance tickets to stop people undercutting the 'proper' fare to London using them. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-advance-fares.22707/#post-303056
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But Advance tickets aren’t designed to allow flexibility. The whole point of them is a fixed itinerary - agreed to in advance - in return for a cheaper fare.
Good point, LU clearly couldn’t be booked/reserved in the same way as National Rail services but as you still get an indicative itinerary for that leg of the journey you could print it out in the same way and I’d expect to have to follow that but more as a time period in which to complete the leg rather than a specific LU train or trains to catch.
krus_aragon
Established Member
It's similar on a Sunday if you're coming from South Wales and want to head down the coast: a four minute connection isn't officially enough at Crewe, though it's usually doable, so you need to wait another hour for the next train.
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In the confirmation I received, Avanti didn’t give any times on their itinerary relating to the first leg (see image).
Going off-piste a bit here, but with this ticket what is the Delay Repay / entitlement to travel on the next service situation in the event of a delay on the tube. Also is travel before 9.30 permitted?
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There is no time restriction on the Underground.
I don't know which station you are boarding at, but it may be prudent (or even essential) to depart before 0930 in order to have sufficient interchange time at EUS.
It’ll be Finchley Central, so should be 20 minutes maximum (direct on the Northern Line).
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gray1404
Established Member
You need to plan to be at Euston no later then 10.25 in order to catch your train from there at 10.40. This is because Euston has a 15 minute minimum connection time. Based on the current TfL journey planner data there is an 10.08 Northern line service from Finchley Central which arrives at Euston at 10.25 You would need to ensure you are at Finchley Central in time to catch the 10.08 in order to have a valid itinerary and be covered in the event of any delays getting to Euston.
Also, I'd check the TfL journey planner nearer the date of travel for the most accurate data in case LU change their times slightly.
Also, I'd check the TfL journey planner nearer the date of travel for the most accurate data in case LU change their times slightly.
I agree, but the itinerary that Avanti gave them doesn't actually state any of that and just lists the LU arrival and departure times both as 1040. Even if it showed an arrival at Euston of 1025 - to give the 15 minute connection time - it would be an improvement but, as it stands, seems to suggest that they can leave their origin station at 1040. I wonder how many people do that - thinking they can't leave any earlier as it's an Advance ticket - and then find themselves missing their train from Euston?
It’s a good point. Obviously I’m aware that the reservation is on the 1040 from Euston, but some might not.
I was planning on getting the tube at around 0930, but now that Yorkie has confirmed my ticket is valid on LU in the peak, I might leave a little earlier.
I’m still interested to know however in the hypothetical scenario where the tube is suspended and I was to miss the 1040 from Euston, how I could convince Avanti to allow me to use the ticket on say either the 1100 or 1120 departures and could I claim Delay Repay from TFL or whoever?
gray1404
Established Member
Provided you allowed enough time (see my previous post about the latest time you can start the tube leg of your journey by) then AWC are obliged to accommodate you on the next service to Manchester. It is NOT for you to prove to them the delay occurred in order to be afforded your rights. However, collecting some proof, like a photo of a departure board or similar showing the tube as delayed or cancelled, or asking a member of tube staff at the time to confirm the delay by writing on the back of your ticket or a screen shot on your photo taken at the time showing the tube as disrupted on an official website can be useful.
My understanding is that LU will only compensate for delays of 15 minutes or more to their services (i.e. an actual 15 minute delay on the tube and not say a 5 minute delay on the tube that caused your to arrive at your overall destination on the National Rail network 15 or more minutes late), and as they are not part of National Rail, the compensation they pay out will be based solely on the cost of the tube leg of your journey and not your overall cost of your journey. This is totally different to how it would work for a journey between two stations on the normal rail network.
My understanding is that LU will only compensate for delays of 15 minutes or more to their services (i.e. an actual 15 minute delay on the tube and not say a 5 minute delay on the tube that caused your to arrive at your overall destination on the National Rail network 15 or more minutes late), and as they are not part of National Rail, the compensation they pay out will be based solely on the cost of the tube leg of your journey and not your overall cost of your journey. This is totally different to how it would work for a journey between two stations on the normal rail network.
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This whole thing is a grey area but I would be leaving Finchley Central earlier than 1000 to avoid any doubt as to the validity/reasonableness of the connection at Euston.
Also as you booked through Avanti direct you won't have had access to the seat selector, and the allocated seat may not match preferences, so you may want to give yourself plenty of time to board, to find an alternative seat if yours isn't any good.
Also as you booked through Avanti direct you won't have had access to the seat selector, and the allocated seat may not match preferences, so you may want to give yourself plenty of time to board, to find an alternative seat if yours isn't any good.
I was in something of a dichotomy with this booking. It was either book now with Avanti and take advantage of a very good price, or wait until Trainsplit were selling this date and take advantage of the seat selector that they offer (but in doing so run the risk that the very cheapest tiers of ticket had sold out). In the end I played around with the Avanti site, placing multiple seats in the basket until I got something I was relatively content with. Not ideal, but there you go.
gray1404
Established Member
If Avanti was able to sell the ticket to you why was it not possible to book the same on Trainsplit? That doesn't sound right.
These tickets are for use on 26th June. Trainsplit are currently only selling tickets into May.
I don’t wish to be critical of Trainsplit, but currently their booking window doesn’t match up with Avanti’s, so whilst their seat selector is a very welcome feature, it simply wasn’t available to me on this occasion.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
You only quote part of the condition:
(my bold).
I agree with you about pragmatism and staff being sensible (and I've only been denied travel once- from Hemel on an EC&Connections ticket Hemel to Newcastle, taking a slightly earlier train), the conditions do say you must take the trains shown on your tickets or an itinerary. The T&Cs don't provide for pragmatism; if staff show sensibility it's always a bonus and not a right.
But that could be taken to mean any valid connection that could be offered with that itinerary, for example if you make a journey from Manchester to Brighton and you hear that delays are occurring at St Pancras, it would make sense to go to Victoria instead. Clearly there is no intention that the "connections" part should be restricted by GTR train.
However unless formal ticket acceptance was in place, you would still be expected to go to Euston rather than St Pancras or King's Cross if delays were occurring on Avanti.
If there is no room for pragmatism, do tell me which platform you should go to (3, 7 or 10) for the 0951 from Clapham Junction to Waterloo, if you had a ticket from (say) Clapham Junction to Manchester.
And let's say your journey was from South Hampstead to Manchester and you turned up at 0900, to see the 0900 was approaching, the 0913 was running 20 mins late, would you seriously wait for the 0913 if that is what your itinerary showed?
I refuse to accept there is no room for pragmatism when it comes to "& Connections" tickets; the main aim of those tickets is to restrict the customer to a specific InterCity (or otherwise longer distance) trains and not to restrict the customer by connecting service.
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