Advance ticket question

[stevedb11]

Can anybody help, I have purchased a advance ticket from London Waterloo to Brockenhurst, this is because I can't get the same ticket to southampton, I was going to travel to Brockenhurst then get the next train back to Southampton,But.
The question is,what if I have purchased my Ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton, and don't use it,but get off at Southampton early, and use the Brockenhurst to Southampton Ticket to exit the automated barrier.

Thanks for any help.

 

[AndyLandy]

You're breaking the rules of your Advance Purchase fare by doing so. Whether anyone is likely to catch you doing so is a different matter.

 

[barrykas]

Doing so would be a breach of the Terms and Conditions of the Advance ticket you hold, which state that "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

As such, were you to be stopped by an Authorised Collector you would be liable to a Penalty Fare. For London to Southampton that would be £73.00, being twice the Anytime Day Single for the journey.

 

[Deerfold]

This has been debated numerous times here before.

Technically you're breaking the terms of the ticket and there's no doubt you should not just get off early with just an advance.

So long as you are paying for the journey between where the advance goes and where you're getting off there are those who are happy morally with that and feel a train company that attempted to prosecute would not get far.

There's an arguement for contacting the train company and asking for their opinion, given the cost to them is unaltered and they'll gain an extra seat each way. Of course if they say you can't then you really really shouldn't.

 

[wintonian]

There are barriers at Southampton Central so this would be picked up on.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Deerfold]

There are barriers at Southampton Central so this would be picked up on.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Not if the OP is using a ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton.

 

[bb21]

We have debated these before without reaching a consensus.

What the OP proposed is technically a breach of the conditions, however some people argue that since the correct fare has been paid, the railway company have not suffered a financial loss. In addition, whether doing what the OP proposes is enforceable or not is something I will leave the OP to decide.

 

[stevedb11]

Thanks for those replies, as the trip to Brockenhurst and back only adds 30 mins to my journey, I might do the right thing and use both tickets, it still only works out at £32 approx from London for 2 adults, so I'm not complaining.

Just to Add, I was a bit miffed really, because every year at Christmas my wife and I travel to London, and have always managed to purchase the £1 Megatrain tickets, but this year I have got them for the Trip outward, but they have not released any for the return on Fri 28th Dec when we have to travel:cry:, which is strange because they have released them for Sat the 29th Dec.

 

[wintonian]

We have debated these before without reaching a consensus.

What the OP proposed is technically a breach of the conditions, however some people argue that since the correct fare has been paid, the railway company have not suffered a financial loss. In addition, whether doing what the OP proposes is enforceable or not is something I will leave the OP to decide.

We can debate this until the cows come home but at the end of the day it comes down to conscience.

 

[Lee_Again]

Something else to consider.

If the Advance is on the (let's say) 12.00 and arr. Brockenhurst at 14.00, and you pass through the barriers at 13.30 (having BOJ at Southampton and at least 1 hour before it would be physically possible to do so) your defense won't work because technically you can't be there and they can prove you got off the train (BOJ). This is not allowed.

If you wait until 14.30 to leave the platform (so that BOJ can't be proved) then you may as well go to Brockenhurst.

The argument of buying a single back and defence of 'what difference does it make' will not work. Tickets are priced for a reason, and Advance tickets even more so.

 

[Deerfold]

Something else to consider.

If the Advance is on the (let's say) 12.00 and arr. Brockenhurst at 14.00, and you pass through the barriers at 13.30 (having BOJ at Southampton and at least 1 hour before it would be physically possible to do so) your defense won't work because technically you can't be there and they can prove you got off the train (BOJ). This is not allowed.

Well, no, because you'd be going through the barriers with a ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton as the OP mentioned in their original post and I mentioned in post number 6.

 

[michael769]

We can debate this until the cows come home but at the end of the day it comes down to conscience.

And potentially the courts in the unlikely event that it is somehow detected.

 

[jkdd77]

Doing so would be a breach of the Terms and Conditions of the Advance ticket you hold, which state that "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

As such, were you to be stopped by an Authorised Collector you would be liable to a Penalty Fare. For London to Southampton that would be £73.00, being twice the Anytime Day Single for the journey.

While I don't condone BoJ on advance tickets, I thought it had been firmly established that a passenger can't be PF'd for doing this, since NRCoC Condition 16 states:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in Conditions
10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

By omitting Condition 16, this implicitly excludes circumstances where Condition 16 applies.

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.

Except when he or she is applying rule 6.7, an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if this would conflict with the rights given to the person by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/rail-penalty-fares-rules.pdf

Furthermore, I believe yorkie has reported that a pair who were given a PF by SWT in these circumstances won their appeal on the above basis.

 

[island]

Quite possibly true, but as the old saying goes, you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride, and a passenger issued a PF in those circumstances would have to go to some lengths to get it overturned.

 

[Lrd]

Furthermore, I believe yorkie has reported that a pair who were given a PF by SWT in these circumstances won their appeal on the above basis.

Wasn't that on a Megatrain ticket?

 

[wintonian]

Wasn't that on a Megatrain ticket?

The case of the Prof. I assume?

 

[Deerfold]

The case of the Prof. I assume?

No, that was on East Coast.

 

[AndyLandy]

As I recall, there was a story of a couple with a Megatrain ticket from Waterloo to Southampton who got off at Eastleigh and were stopped at the gateline and told they had to pay for a new ticket (whether that was an open, or a PF, I don't remember)

The press got hold of it and there was outrage about them being charged for getting off the train early, the assumption being that this was an utterly ridiculous state of affairs.

 

[wintonian]

This one?

 

[AndyLandy]

This one?

Yep, that was the story. Thanks for the link.

 

[barrykas]

Having just consulted with my Revenue Protection colleagues, it does indeed appear that I'm being too harsh and they'd just charge an Excess in such a situation. Mea culpa.

 

[wintonian]

Having just consulted with my Revenue Protection colleagues, it does indeed appear that I'm being too harsh and they'd just charge an Excess in such a situation. Mea culpa.

Well it does seem draconian unless the passengers makes a habit of it.

 

[trainophile]

You could be caught out if there was an RPI exercise at Brockenhurst that day, e.g. issuing leaflets there to prove that was where you boarded. (As per a thread recently where someone was caught out saying they had boarded at the stop before Liverpool Lime Street, when such an exercise was taking place, and their lack of a "leaflet" proved they couldn't have).

 

[wintonian]

You could be caught out if there was an RPI exercise at Brockenhurst that day, e.g. issuing leaflets there to prove that was where you boarded. (As per a thread recently where someone was caught out saying they had boarded at the stop before Liverpool Lime Street, when such an exercise was taking place, and their lack of a "leaflet" proved they couldn't have).

As far as I know SWT haven't gone down that road yet, of course that doesn't mean to say they won't at some point.

 

[cookiescrumble]

Can anybody help, I have purchased a advance ticket from London Waterloo to Brockenhurst, this is because I can't get the same ticket to southampton.

There are no SWT advance tickets to/from Southampton Central because of the Megatrain tickets available. Advance tickets are available from Brockenhurst and most stations all the way down to Weymouth, but as already stated these aren't valid for travel to/from Southampton Central. I work at Southampton and have turned many people away who have advance tickets from Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Christchurch etc to Waterloo. If someone has come off the train with these tickets then as stated the excess has been issued in the situations I have witnessed.

 

[Lee_Again]

Well, no, because you'd be going through the barriers with a ticket from Brockenhurst to Southampton as the OP mentioned in their original post and I mentioned in post number 6.

Nobody is doubting the fact that the ticket would work the barriers.

The problem occurs if a you are stopped before that situation occurs and are seen alighting from the London train. You will not then have a valid ticket.

If the sole purpose is to pass through the barriers why not just buy the cheapest ticket available. Why bother with a single from Brockenhurst?

 

[bb21]

If the sole purpose is to pass through the barriers why not just buy the cheapest ticket available. Why bother with a single from Brockenhurst?

It could be argued that by doing so, the TOC has not really lost out financially (although I have no desire to reopen the debate here).

It is a completely different kettle of fish if you purchase the cheapest ticket solely to get out of the gates.

 

[LexyBoy]

If the sole purpose is to pass through the barriers why not just buy the cheapest ticket available. Why bother with a single from Brockenhurst?

A single from Brockenhurst is absolutely valid in combination with the Advance ticket for travel Waterloo-Brockenhurst-Southampton. It therefore doesn't seem unreasonable to buy this ticket and just not make the extra journey - the TOC hasn't been done out of any money compared to the OP actually making the extra bit of the journey, whereas using any old ticket to work the barriers would lose them money. (Not that it is technically permitted).

You could be caught out if there was an RPI exercise at Brockenhurst that day, e.g. issuing leaflets there to prove that was where you boarded. (As per a thread recently where someone was caught out saying they had boarded at the stop before Liverpool Lime Street, when such an exercise was taking place, and their lack of a "leaflet" proved they couldn't have).

If you just went from platform to platform then it's entirely plausible that you'd not be given a so-called "leaflet".

 

[AndyLandy]

If you just went from platform to platform then it's entirely plausible that you'd not be given a so-called "leaflet".

For this scheme to be at all reliable, you'd have to be 100% efficient at issuing these leaflets. And what if a passenger throws it away? Absence of a leaflet isn't proof of not being somwhere.

 

[wintonian]

Neither is absence of one in itself a reason to deny the sale of a ticket from such a station - assuming a passenger did not board there and such a ticket would be valid for the journey being undertaken.