Advance Ticket LNER+Connections Query

[twpsaesneg]

Morning,

I found myself stung with purchasing an additional ticket this morning and I'm not sure if I should have been.

I am travelling on an Advance ticket from Ely to Leeds valid on East Coast + Connections. The itinerary gives a tight connection at Peterborough (1 min above minimum connection time) and I was early arriving at Ely so got the earlier EMR service which gives a lot more time.

I've always been under the impression that the Advance element applies to the main body of the journey rather than Connections to it (ie the "EC" bit rather than the Connections bit) so was slightly surprised to be charged for a new ticket from Ely to PBO by the EMR Guard.

Is this correct? It seems a bit rubbish considering my only reason for getting on said train was to avoid the potential of missing a connection and thus triggering delay repay.

 

[AlterEgo]

Morning,

I found myself stung with purchasing an additional ticket this morning and I'm not sure if I should have been.

I am travelling on an Advance ticket from Ely to Leeds valid on East Coast + Connections. The itinerary gives a tight connection at Peterborough (1 min above minimum connection time) and I was early arriving at Ely so got the earlier EMR service which gives a lot more time.

I've always been under the impression that the Advance element applies to the main body of the journey rather than Connections to it (ie the "EC" bit rather than the Connections bit) so was slightly surprised to be charged for a new ticket from Ely to PBO by the EMR Guard.

Is this correct? It seems a bit rubbish considering my only reason for getting on said train was to avoid the potential of missing a connection and thus triggering delay repay.

The EMR train is “reservable” and hence is not available to you to travel earlier on the “+CONNECTIONS” part of the ticket if you were not reserved on it.

This part of the Advance TnCs isn’t well explained so I would be tempted to write in to EMR and ask for a refund.

4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

(What an appropriate connecting train is isn’t explained well imo, but it’s basically what I’ve mentioned above)

 

[jfollows]

No, you are bound by the itinerary that was issued when you bought your ticket; in future you could ensure that the earlier train is used by specifying a longer connection time at Peterborough.

If “all” you had to do was pay for an additional ticket then you’re relatively fortunate, put it down to experience.

A few years ago the “and connections” worked as you say, but now that “counted place” reservations have been introduced on the connecting trains you’re considered to have a reservation on a specific train, albeit without a specified seat.

 

[twpsaesneg]

A few years ago the “and connections” worked as you say, but now that “counted place” reservations have been introduced on the connecting trains you’re considered to have a reservation on a specific train, albeit without a specified seat.

That will be what I was thinking of, I am clearly behind the times.

Thanks!

 

[AdamWW]

That will be what I was thinking of, I am clearly behind the times.

Thanks!

Is there not at least one company in the South East (I forget which) that has said that it doesn't require connecting trains to be on the correct itinerary on their services even though counted places exist?

No, you are bound by the itinerary that was issued when you bought your ticket; in future you could ensure that the earlier train is used by specifying a longer connection time at Peterborough.

Is that now standard with on-line ticket vendors if you dig into the advanced options?

 

[jfollows]

Is there not at least one company in the South East (I forget which) that has said that it doesn't require connecting trains to be on the correct itinerary on their services even though counted places exist?

• Where LNER is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa, e.g. “AP London-Reading”, or “AWC& Connections”, LNER waives the need to travel on the exact LNER train booked on this relatively short journey Stevenage ↔ Kings Cross, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.
• Where a passenger has a through Advance Ticket and reservations for a journey which involves using a Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern and / or Thameslink train, as a connection to or from a different operator’s train service.

For example, Advance Tickets routed "AP SLOUGH", “AWC &CONNECTIONS” or "LNER & CONNECTNS".

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/specified-train-connections-meaning.273224/page-2#post-6922125

GTR allow any train to be used where they are the connecting service into another operators service. EG, ‘LNER & Connections’, ‘AP Slough’, etc.

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/specified-train-connections-meaning.273224/page-2#post-6921794

 

[Haywain]

Is there not at least one company in the South East (I forget which) that has said that it doesn't require connecting trains to be on the correct itinerary on their services even though counted places exist?

There is but it is very much not East Midlands Railway.

 

[WestAnglian]

Is there not at least one company in the South East (I forget which) that has said that it doesn't require connecting trains to be on the correct itinerary on their services even though counted places exist?

In August a zealous GA gateline chap refused to alow me onto the platform because I was earlier than my itinerary connecting train, for the same reason as the OP - a short connection, this time at Cambridge, as I made my way to York. The conversation was overheard by a senior member of the booking office staff who said that my GA connecting service coiuld be ANY train.

As to the idea that one should know enough about the system to explicitly request a longer connection time is, a moment's thought should show the absurdity of the suggestion. As has been said on here repeatedly in similar contexts a passenger really should not need to think about such things.

 

[AdamWW]

There is but it is very much not East Midlands Railway.

Obviously.

But I was responding to (what I took to be) a comment on the general terms for advance tickets.

 

[JonathanH]

As to the idea that one should know enough about the system to explicitly request a longer connection time is, a moment's thought should show the absurdity of the suggestion. As has been said on here repeatedly in similar contexts a passenger really should not need to think about such things.

A passenger can look at the overall schedule they are given by the booking engine at the time of booking and decide whether they think it suits their travel needs. That is not absurd.

What seems to be the ultimate cause of the issue here is that the connection times at Peterborough are too short for some passengers.

The contract made at the time of booking is to follow a given itinerary, not to choose one and then decide nearer the time that it isn't suitable. You are suggesting that someone knows enough about the system to decide that a longer connection is necessary but only on the day of travel.

In any case, a polite request to the guard before boarding may have been answered with a 'yes that is fine' or a 'no' if there had actually been disruption likely to result in a missed connection.

 

[robbeech]

Whilst it doesn’t change anything, I think (unless it has recently changed) that the EMR Norwich to Liverpool services have real seat reservations not just counted place.

If “all” you had to do was pay for an additional ticket then you’re relatively fortunate, put it down to experience.

I suppose this is probably the cheapest option (other than the approach of letting them travel), as there’s technically no TOC restriction on the connections they’d be entitled to an excess but this would almost certainly be more expensive than a single from Ely to Peterborough. And of course if the heavily anti passenger LNER get away with their hugely successful price gouge then this would end up being even more expensive.

 

[AlterEgo]

A passenger can look at the overall schedule they are given by the booking engine at the time of booking and decide whether they think it suits their travel needs. That is not absurd.

What seems to be the ultimate cause of the issue here is that the connection times at Peterborough are too short for some passengers.

The contract made at the time of booking is to follow a given itinerary, not to choose one and then decide nearer the time that it isn't suitable. You are suggesting that someone knows enough about the system to decide that a longer connection is necessary but only on the day of travel.

A lot of people aren't aware they can specify longer connections though. I'm not certain if or how the LNER site allows you to do that.

 

[jfollows]

As to the idea that one should know enough about the system to explicitly request a longer connection time is, a moment's thought should show the absurdity of the suggestion. As has been said on here repeatedly in similar contexts a passenger really should not need to think about such things.

Maybe, but there's no requirement for a passenger to think about these things, but the alternative is to travel under a valid itinerary, be delayed, and the industry response is "Delay Repay". Not much good if you have a vital appointment you don't want to be late for. Which is possibly the reason @twpsaesneg took an earlier connecting train mistakenly.

 

[JonathanH]

A lot of people aren't aware they can specify longer connections though. I'm not certain if or how the LNER site allows you to do that.

Yes, most sites don't help with that at present. That is all part of the unfortunate dumbing down of passenger interfaces.

However, what I was referring to was passengers being aware of what they have booked including the changeover times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is but it is very much not East Midlands Railway.

Though one could be forgiven for getting confused given that the TOC that does (GTR) runs a fairly large chunk of its operation directly alongside EMR.

 

[AdamWW]

A passenger can look at the overall schedule they are given by the booking engine at the time of booking and decide whether they think it suits their travel needs. That is not absurd.

Or they can book a train that gets them where they need to be when they need to be there, and on the day look in a bit more detail (perhaps when checking for any disruption) and think...ooh...that's a tight connection.

Or just (since it's not exactly a well advertised option) they don't know that you can ask for a longer connection. (I didn't know it was possible other than on Trainsplit).

 

[JonathanH]

Or just (since it's not exactly a well advertised option) they don't know that you can ask for a longer connection. (I didn't know it was possible other than on Trainsplit).

I think the only other place it can be done is the 'accessible booking tool' version of the mixing deck booking engines which has an 'extended station change times' option.

 

[WestAnglian]

In any case, a polite request to the guard before boarding may have been answered with a 'yes that is fine' or a 'no' if there had actually been disruption likely to result in a missed connection.

Tricky, if they won't let you through the gateline.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2024 ==

Or they can book a train that gets them where they need to be when they need to be there, and on the day look in a bit more detail (perhaps when checking for any disruption) and think...ooh...that's a tight connection.

Precisely. And if you use public transport to get to the station and find that you can catch an earlier connecting service then why would you be prohibited? How does that benefit anyone? You're still tied to the booked LNER service so are not gaming the system in any way, just trying to mitigate the risk of disruption causing you to miss your booked long-distance service.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whilst it doesn’t change anything, I think (unless it has recently changed) that the EMR Norwich to Liverpool services have real seat reservations not just counted place.

No - I think 'real' reservations on this route ceased in covid and never came back (as in no paper slips on seats are used any more). Assuming this is what you mean by real seat reservations of course.

 

[Royston Vasey]

No - I think 'real' reservations on this route ceased in covid and never came back (as in no paper slips on seats are used any more). Assuming this is what you mean by real seat reservations of course.

Yes counted place only now.


On the flip side of this but related to the thread, tomorrow I have an LNER & Connections ticket from Retford to Cambridge. My itinerary includes the 1750 GA Colchester service, from Peterborough to Ely which is unreservable and therefore not listed on my mandatory reservations.

There is a 1744 EMR within the minimum connection time, that also calls at Ely but is reservable.

As I have no mandatory reservation from PBO-ELY, i just want to double check that my ticket is valid on the earlier EMR? Before reading this thread I wouldn't think twice about this, and certainly wouldn't before every regional operator slapped reservation availability/restrictions on every train!

 

[AdamWW]

Yes counted place only now.


On the flip side of this but related to the thread, tomorrow I have an LNER & Connections ticket from Retford to Cambridge. My itinerary includes the 1750 GA Colchester service, from Peterborough to Ely which is unreservable and therefore not listed on my mandatory reservations.

There is a 1744 EMR within the minimum connection time, that also calls at Ely but is reservable.

As I have no mandatory reservation from PBO-ELY, i just want to double check that my ticket is valid on the earlier EMR? Before reading this thread I wouldn't think twice about this, and certainly wouldn't before every regional operator slapped reservation availability/restrictions on every train!

That's an interesting one.

I saw someone in trouble once on an LNER+connections advance ticket because they'd caught a (reservable) LNER train north of Edinburgh instead of the unreservable Scotrail train on their itinerary. The guard told them that their LNER ticket could only be used on non LNER services. (A bit counter-intuitive).

(May not have been LNER - I forget just when it was and the franchise used to change rather a lot).

 

[Watershed]

Yes counted place only now.


On the flip side of this but related to the thread, tomorrow I have an LNER & Connections ticket from Retford to Cambridge. My itinerary includes the 1750 GA Colchester service, from Peterborough to Ely which is unreservable and therefore not listed on my mandatory reservations.

There is a 1744 EMR within the minimum connection time, that also calls at Ely but is reservable.

As I have no mandatory reservation from PBO-ELY, i just want to double check that my ticket is valid on the earlier EMR? Before reading this thread I wouldn't think twice about this, and certainly wouldn't before every regional operator slapped reservation availability/restrictions on every train!

In theory the rule is that you can only take other services that are also unreserveable for the "connecting" part of your journey. Of course, between Ely and Peterborough the only unreserveable service is the GA one, which only runs every 2 hours - so in practice, you don't really have much choice.

If the 17:50 isn't shown on your ticket, you could argue that you didn't know you were bound to the 17:50 and just took the first available service; there's a chance your ticket would just be accepted. But if the guard looks at your ticket more closely they'd see you don't have a reservation for the 17:44, which means you weren't booked on it - and therefore aren't travelling in accordance with your itinerary.

Personally speaking I would speak to the EMR guard on the platform and ask them if it's OK, before boarding. If they say "no", you can then wait for the 17:50.

 

[Royston Vasey]

In theory the rule is that you can only take other services that are also unreserveable for the "connecting" part of your journey. Of course, between Ely and Peterborough the only unreserveable service is the GA one, which only runs every 2 hours - so in practice, you don't really have much choice.

If the 17:50 isn't shown on your ticket, you could argue that you didn't know you were bound to the 17:50 and just took the first available service; there's a chance your ticket would just be accepted. But if the guard looks at your ticket more closely they'd see you don't have a reservation for the 17:44, which means you weren't booked on it - and therefore aren't travelling in accordance with your itinerary.

Personally speaking I would speak to the EMR guard on the platform and ask them if it's OK, before boarding. If they say "no", you can then wait for the 17:50.

The EMR isn't reservation only of course, merely reservations available, so I'd feel aggrieved if turned away. The misused reservation only flag might I suppose be invoked if boarding an LNER train unreserved in @AdamWW 's example, but is not used by EMR.

Also how is a normal passenger to know what train is unreservable and reservable and the difference it makes, if any, when they have no reservation at all for a leg of their ticketed journey?

Another relevant factor is that I have paper tickets and the coupon makes no mention of Peterborough to Ely. I know for a fact (because I accidentally booked an eTicket which I cancelled and rebooked a paper ticket!) that on an eticket for the same journey, the GA leg is listed under "Mandatory Reservations" even though it isn't. So the guard can't use this against me either. This is a flaw of eTickets, as highlighted on here, giving less informed staff a reason to say no (or an excuse having already said no).

 

[JonathanH]

Also how is a normal passenger to know what train is unreservable and reservable and the difference it makes, if any?

At a basic level, the passenger doesn't need to know because they can reference the itinerary they booked and catch the correct service.

That arguably, rightly or wrongly, is why there isn't any guidance about catching trains which aren't on the itinerary.

 

[Royston Vasey]

At a basic level, the passenger doesn't need to know because they can reference the itinerary they booked and catch the correct service.

That arguably, rightly or wrongly, is why there isn't any guidance about catching trains which aren't on the itinerary.

But I could have bought my paper tickets in person without receiving any more of an itinerary at all? I just happen to have one because I booked online. Do ticket offices print a full itinerary?

 

[twpsaesneg]

Maybe, but there's no requirement for a passenger to think about these things, but the alternative is to travel under a valid itinerary, be delayed, and the industry response is "Delay Repay". Not much good if you have a vital appointment you don't want to be late for. Which is possibly the reason @twpsaesneg took an earlier connecting train mistakenly.

That was pretty much it. As people who know the route well will know, it's more than possible for a late running container train to be sent down the March line, which with the long block sections can cause significant delay. And the GA service on which I should have travelled doesn't seem to be seen as a particular priority, presumably as it has a longish turnaround at Peterborough. Lesson learned for me, I'll just make sure that I don't book Advance tickets for this routing.