Advance ticket in conjunction with delayed train

[OuluChris]

Hi,

On Friday evenings I collect my daughter for the weekend.

I travel from London Liverpool Street to Ipswich by myself and then make the return journey with her.

Because the Greater Anglia train from Liverpool Street is so often late arriving in Ipswich I have, until now, usually purchased my daughter a ticket that allows travel at any time. However, I've noticed that by specifying a particular train to travel on the costs are less.

So my train is supposed to arrive in Ipswich at 18:37 and, when things go according to plan, I take the 18:43 train back to London.

My question is this: if I purchase my daughter a ticket for the 18:43 train and she has to take a later train because my train didn't arrive from London on time can I be fined for this?

Thanks in advance for any replies.


Chris

 

[najaB]

My question is this: if I purchase my daughter a ticket for the 18:43 train and she has to take a later train because my train didn't arrive from London on time can I be fined for this?

I think you'll have to just play the numbers on this one. If your train to Ipswich is delayed you will be fine to take the later train back to London. However, your daughter's Advance ticket will not be valid. If you're lucky you'll get a guard who will let her travel, otherwise a new ticket will have to be purchased.

Ipswich is a Penalty Fare station for AGA, so she would be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if you don't get permission for her to travel so you would be best advised to buy a new ticket.

So it's a question of how often is the train late, would the potential savings be offset by having to buy new tickets when it is late?

I don't want to pry into your personal arrangements, but I'm guessing that your daughter's mother collects her from London? If you're each paying for a single ticket it may work out cheaper to alternate paying for a return ticket as in a lot of cases an open return is only slightly more expensive than the open single you've been buying. (Ignore this if you are already buying return tickets and are considering switching to two Advances).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It would probably be argued that once you have done your journey from London to Ipswich you are then starting a new journey in the opposite direction and using an Advance ticket it is your responsibility to get yourself to the specified train in time. The fact the you only arrived 5 minutes earlier by train, which was late, might be of no concern to the train company as that is two separate journeys. I shall await the forum response that "you can use more than one ticket for your journey...." (see posts passim), but it could equally be argued, I think, that this is not one journey using two tickets, this is more than one journey. However, many train companies do allow for a relaxation in the return leg of a journey using Advance tickets if your outward journey was delayed.

Your daughter however would be different. That is one ticket for one journey, and with Advance tickets it is your responsibility to get to that train on time. The fact that that ticket holder is waiting for somebody else who has got delayed on the way is irrelevant to be honest, in my view.

 

[Flamingo]

It would probably be argued that once you have done your journey from London to Ipswich you are then starting a new journey in the opposite direction and using an Advance ticket it is your responsibility to get yourself to the specified train in time. The fact the you only arrived 5 minutes earlier by train, which was late, might be of no concern to the train company as that is two separate journeys. I shall await the forum response that "you can use more than one ticket for your journey...." (see posts passim), but it could equally be argued, I think, that this is not one journey using two tickets, this is more than one journey. However, many train companies do allow for a relaxation in the return leg of a journey using Advance tickets if your outward journey was delayed.

Your daughter however would be different. That is one ticket for one journey, and with Advance tickets it is your responsibility to get to that train on time. The fact that that ticket holder is waiting for somebody else who has got delayed on the way is irrelevant to be honest, in my view.

Again, before all the cries of "but what about customer service" etc go up, I'd agree with this. It might seem a strict interpetation of the rules, but it would be a valid one, IMHO.

 

[clagmonster]

Indeed, I struggle to see how it could be deemed as one journey, with the origin and destination the same. However, just to extend the idea a little. At some stage it must become reasonable to expect to be allowed to return on a later train, should your arrival at your destination be delayed by more than your planned stay. At what stage does this occur. Minimum connection time? An hour. 2 hours? At some point, there will be a case where somebody has an advance, has a corking delay, and misses there return train. What do you do then?

 

[Jonfun]

It's not unknown for train companies to use discretion for that situation, and that was done to death on another thread not that long ago. But the situation in the OP regards someone making a single point to point journey on an advance ticket, and the rules are clear - booked train only.

 

[maniacmartin]

I am also of the opinion that the return journey is a totally separate journey and you would technically have to buy new tickets if the outbound service was late.

However, this doesn't look good from a customer service point of view, and if you write to AGA outlining the problem, there is a (slim) chance they might be willing to make an exception in your case.

 

[34D]

How old is the daughter (I ask both from the perspectives of the age of criminal responsibility and perhaps the view of what age is appropriate to make that kind of journey solo)?

 

[OuluChris]

Thanks for all the replies everybody - very helpful.

As the difference is only usually a few quid I will continue to purchase tickets which don't specify which train you travel on.

I make the same journey (again!) on a Sunday when I take my daughter home so I wouldn't have objected to the chance of saving a few quid though!

I'm not totally surprised by the answers explaining that the train company might not have great customer service. In my experience Abellio Greater Anglia is possibly the worst company in the world. I have still not forgiven them for abandoning my daughter and I in a train station car park, without access to seats, toilets, or anything else really, for three hours one Sunday.

My daughter is 11 by the way and I don't anticipate her making the journey by herself for a few years yet!

Thanks again.

 

[Flamingo]

How old is the daughter (I ask both from the perspectives of the age of criminal responsibility and perhaps the view of what age is appropriate to make that kind of journey solo)?

That's a fair point.

IF the disruption is that bad, and I was the OP I would ask a member of staff (or Twitter team if appropriate), and explain the situation, if possible before the time of the departing/returning train, definitely before boarding the later train. Get the ticket endorsed by whoever says yes.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm not totally surprised by the answers explaining that the train company might not have great customer service. In my experience Abellio Greater Anglia is possibly the worst company in the world..

The ticketting rules that were discussed upthread are not specific to Abellia Greater Anglia - most Advance tickets for travel by any Train Operating Company in mainland Britain are subject to the same rules

 

[Flamingo]

The ticketting rules that were discussed upthread are not specific to Abellia Greater Anglia - most Advance tickets for travel by any Train Operating Company in mainland Britain are subject to the same rules

Wot he said...

 

[najaB]

I am also of the opinion that the return journey is a totally separate journey and you would technically have to buy new tickets if the outbound service was late.

Without wanting to derail the thread, why does the fact that the origin of the first ticket and destination of the last ticket are the same make it different to any other split ticket itinerary?

 

[londonbridge]

Indeed, I struggle to see how it could be deemed as one journey, with the origin and destination the same. However, just to extend the idea a little. At some stage it must become reasonable to expect to be allowed to return on a later train, should your arrival at your destination be delayed by more than your planned stay. At what stage does this occur. Minimum connection time? An hour. 2 hours? At some point, there will be a case where somebody has an advance, has a corking delay, and misses there return train. What do you do then?

If your outward train was delayed to the extent that it rendered your entire trip pointless, the better option might be to abandon the journey and claim a refund on the return portion.

 

[najaB]

If your outward train was delayed to the extent that it rendered your entire trip pointless, the better option might be to abandon the journey and claim a refund on the return portion.

What if the delay occurs during the outward jouney, but after you have passed what would have been your return train?

 

[34D]

My daughter is 11 by the way and I don't anticipate her making the journey by herself for a few years yet!

Thanks again.

I've started a separate thread to discuss this.

Going back to topic, do you have a railcard?

 

[OuluChris]

I have a network railcard which I use to purchase tickets from London to Manningtree and I then purchase separate tickets from Manningtree to Ipswich.

I must further investigate the split ticketing thing now that Shenfield has been brought into TfL. Perhaps in future an additional split might be useful? Use my Oyster card to get to Shenfield, my network rail card to get to Manningtree, and pay full price from Manningtree to Ipswich? It's worth investigating.

Incidentally I saw a TV documentary a few weeks ago where the point was made that customers should be offered a split fare if there's a saving. Despite having purchased tickets at Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Stratford, and Ipswich, I have never been offered a split fare even when I've specifically asked for it.

 

[bb21]

Incidentally I saw a TV documentary a few weeks ago where the point was made that customers should be offered a split fare if there's a saving. Despite having purchased tickets at Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Stratford, and Ipswich, I have never been offered a split fare even when I've specifically asked for it.

No, that is not correct. Don't believe crap that journos like to spout to attract attention.

Placing obligations on the ticket office to offer split tickets is neither practical nor reasonable. There is no such requirement.

 

[Flamingo]

I have a network railcard which I use to purchase tickets from London to Manningtree and I then purchase separate tickets from Manningtree to Ipswich.

I must further investigate the split ticketing thing now that Shenfield has been brought into TfL. Perhaps in future an additional split might be useful? Use my Oyster card to get to Shenfield, my network rail card to get to Manningtree, and pay full price from Manningtree to Ipswich? It's worth investigating.

Incidentally I saw a TV documentary a few weeks ago where the point was made that customers should be offered a split fare if there's a saving. Despite having purchased tickets at Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Stratford, and Ipswich, I have never been offered a split fare even when I've specifically asked for it.

just remember the requirements for the train to stop at the splitting point.

TOC employees are not required to offer a split ticket. Indeed, they are specifically NOT allowed to offer it in a lot of cases. You weren't looking closely at the particular programme. (There is a thread on here about what a waste of good cathode rays that particular program was.)

 

[OuluChris]

Okay - thanks.

I felt sure that the documentary did say that you were supposed to be offered a split fare but I'm prepared to admit I was only half watching it.


Chris

 

[Flamingo]

Okay - thanks.

I felt sure that the documentary did say that you were supposed to be offered a split fare but I'm prepared to admit I was only half watching it.


Chris

no worries

There are people on here who will happily tell you every possible permutation and saving possible on any journey you ever hope to make

The only caveat I will add to this is pretty much every saving is accompanied by extra restrictions on the time you can travel, the route you can take, the trains you can catch (or all three). It is worth weighing up in every case if the extra restrictions are worth the savings.

Sometimes the saving might only be a couple of pounds for a lot of extra restrictions that if you find you are unable to stick to will result in having to buy whole new tickets

 

[bb21]

Okay - thanks.

I felt sure that the documentary did say that you were supposed to be offered a split fare but I'm prepared to admit I was only half watching it.


Chris

Yes, they did, if you watched what I think you watched, and surprise, they were talking out of their backside.

 

[Greenback]

Quite. Just because something said on TV or in the newspaper doesn't mean it's true!

 

[34D]

I have a network railcard which I use to purchase tickets from London to Manningtree and I then purchase separate tickets from Manningtree to Ipswich.

I must further investigate the split ticketing thing now that Shenfield has been brought into TfL. Perhaps in future an additional split might be useful? Use my Oyster card to get to Shenfield, my network rail card to get to Manningtree, and pay full price from Manningtree to Ipswich? It's worth investigating.

Incidentally I saw a TV documentary a few weeks ago where the point was made that customers should be offered a split fare if there's a saving. Despite having purchased tickets at Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Stratford, and Ipswich, I have never been offered a split fare even when I've specifically asked for it.

Where in London is 'home'? Let's assume Liverpool Street for now.

Liverpool St -Manningtree off-peak period return (you only) out Fri night back Sun nite with Network Railcard £23.75 (though query afternoon peak restrictions)

Manningtree-Ipswich two singles (you only) total £10.60

Ipswich-London period return with family railcard for 1 adult 1 child £26.25 plus £7.55

I make that total £68.15 for the weekend - can anyone do something better?

Knowing your home station in London (and whether or not you hold a travelcard etc etc) would assist refining this.

Hopefully in a year or two you and her mother will be comfortable with her travelling by train solo, and you can have some very expensive bottles of champagne in one of the bars around liverpool street and save money.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite. Just because something said on TV or in the newspaper doesn't mean it's true!

But that nice Mr Murdoch is as honest as the day is long! (well maybe)

 

[OuluChris]

Thanks 34D that was really helpful.

The journey described doesn't quite match what I would want. However, what you've described is such a money saver that I want to ask people if they could help refine it.

I don't really want to take this thread over if this isn't the right place. Would it be better if I posed it in the "Fares Advice & Policy" section?

Thanks again,


Chris