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Advance ticket confiscation

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mervyn72

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Recently I was on a journey and ticket inspector came round and checked the tickets of a lady who presented her advance ticket for the 1522 LIV-SCA but we were on the 1322 LIV-SCA.

So he explained that the ticket vas invalid which she understood and that she would have to purchase a new ticket.

The lady asked if she could have a return to Warrington and go back to Liverpool to use her 1522 advance.

NO, was the answer as her 1522 ticket is now confiscated as she had tried to use it fraudulently.

Was this correct from the guard as I've never seen this before?
 
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yorkie

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Recently I was on a journey and ticket inspector came round and checked the tickets of a lady who presented her advance ticket for the 1522 LIV-SCA but we were on the 1322 LIV-SCA.

So he explained that the ticket vas invalid which she understood and that she would have to purchase a new ticket.
That part is correct; the cost of the new ticket is the cheapest available (ie, Off Peak), and with Railcard discount (if applicable).
The lady asked if she could have a return to Warrington and go back to Liverpool to use her 1522 advance.

NO, was the answer as her 1522 ticket is now confiscated as she had tried to use it fraudulently.

Was this correct from the guard as I've never seen this before?
I do not see how that can possibly be correct. I hope this is reported.

Also if a ticket is confiscated, a receipt needs to be issued. Do you know if this was done?
 

mervyn72

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Also if a ticket is confiscated, a receipt needs to be issued. Do you know if this was done?

No it definitely wasn't. I advised the lady to contact TPE customer services but obviously don't know the response.

In the end she bought a single to Malton anyway from the guard...
 

AlterEgo

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Do you know if there was anything else involved, such as issuing a zero-fare excess, or a TIR being completed?

Ordinarily in the circumstances you describe there wouldn't really be any need to confiscate the ticket.
 

mervyn72

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Do you know if there was anything else involved, such as issuing a zero-fare excess, or a TIR being completed?

Ordinarily in the circumstances you describe there wouldn't really be any need to confiscate the ticket.

No, there was nothing else. He was very rude and was insinuating that she was a criminal for trying to use a ticket fraudulently.
 

AlterEgo

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No, there was nothing else. He was very rude and was insinuating that she was a criminal for trying to use a ticket fraudulently.

Fraud is a very strong word and he should definitely not have used it unless he was absolutely sure the customer intended to misuse the ticket.
 

robbeech

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Unfortunately there are a small number of staff from every TOC that can be unnecessarily rude with situations like this, sometimes what they are doing is the correct procedure but badly executed and sometimes, like I am sure it is in this situation it is the wrong procedure, also badly executed. I have had a recent situation with TPE where the wrong procedure was executed though it's important to point out that on this occasion the member of staff was friendly and was appearing to be lenient (though in reality they were wrong so their course of action was correct but for the wrong reasons).
 

Master29

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Fraud is a very strong word and he should definitely not have used it unless he was absolutely sure the customer intended to misuse the ticket.

The OP didn`t actually say he used that word directly; merely insinuated it.
 

Bletchleyite

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TBH I really can't see why he didn't sell an Anytime (Day) Return to Warrington as requested, she was from the story willing to go back. Even if she was trying it on confiscation was a bit extreme.
 

AlterEgo

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The OP didn't actually say he used that word directly; merely insinuated it.

The OP doesn't quite say that. Read it again. The insinuation was that the passenger was a criminal. (Semantics, but important)

In the first post the word fraudulently was also used.
 

Llanigraham

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And the whole thing is being reported by an uninvolved third party, so we will never know the full facts of what really happened or was said.
Speculation, all is speculation.
 

bb21

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If misuse if suspected then the ticket can be withdrawn. If she purchased a new ticket for the journey then no receipt needs to be provided, as the sole purpose of the receipt is to enable the customer to complete his journey.

There are too many factors missing to say anything for definite. Were there previous opportunities to regularise her situation? If so then I can well see why plonking herself on the train regardless can be seen as an attempt to try and get away with it. There may be certain body language that gave away her intentions, or a number of other things a bystander may not have observed.

Whether the guard was right or wrong, none of us knows.
 

Bletchleyite

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If misuse if suspected then the ticket can be withdrawn. If she purchased a new ticket for the journey then no receipt needs to be provided, as the sole purpose of the receipt is to enable the customer to complete his journey.

Is it? I thought it was also evidence that the ticket *was* held in order that no misunderstanding could occur later.
 

Greenback

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I agree with bb21. I have no reason to disbelieve anything that mervyn72 has posted, but it's possible that they missed something in the situation that contributed to the outcome.
 

Master29

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The OP doesn't quite say that. Read it again. The insinuation was that the passenger was a criminal. (Semantics, but important)

In the first post the word fraudulently was also used.

I agree but in a court situation?
 

Bletchleyite

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That's an interesting point, is "trying it on" with a wrong-time Advance actually fraud? I wouldn't say it was - you aren't deceiving[1] anyone, just asking to be allowed to get away with something that you aren't entitled to.

Fraud would be modifying the ticket or attempting to hide the time on it - some means of deceiving the guard into thinking it was valid. Or deliberately buying that cheaper Advance on the assumption you would get away with it e.g. because tickets were rarely checked on a given train.

Did the passenger perhaps do something like that?

[1] Fraud is "obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception" - for a fraud charge to stick there *has* to be wilful deception involved, i.e. an intent to mislead in some way leading to the financial gain.
 
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Merseysider

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I'm on this route for 3 or 4 return journeys a week. In my experience the guards on TPE will always announce, sometimes twice, that "this is the 1322 Transpennine service to Scarborough. If you have booked an Advance ticket for any other train, it will NOT be valid and you will be required to buy a new ticket"

Then there's an automatic announcement stating that Advance tickets are only valid on the booked service and that if your ticket is for any other train "you may be required to pay an additional charge".

It's pretty hard to miss these announcements, even with headphones in.
bb21 said:
If misuse if suspected then the ticket can be withdrawn.
Exactly.
 

TrainfanBen

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TBH I really can't see why he didn't sell an Anytime (Day) Return to Warrington as requested, she was from the story willing to go back. Even if she was trying it on confiscation was a bit extreme.
The contract for the advance ticket had been breached the moment the passenger boarded the 13:22 rather than the 15:22. Ticket instantly invalid plain and simple.
I guess the guard was preventing another attempt at ticket being used in the same way in which case I would say that it was correct.

I guess the passenger may have had time to even try re-using the ticket on another earlier train? (I don't know the timetabling or journey times).

Possibly a failure of the "attitude test".
New thread idea:
"Does the attitude test actually exist; is being 'compliant'/'nice' etc irrelevant" Answers on a postcard.
 
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Cantab26

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The contract for the advance ticket had been breached the moment the passenger boarded the 13:22 rather than the 15:22. Ticket instantly invalid plain and simple.
I guess the guard was preventing another attempt at ticket being used in the same way in which case I would say that it was correct.

I guess the passenger may have had time to even try re-using the ticket on another earlier train? (I don't know the timetabling or journey times).

I'm not sure that this is really correct. The ticket is still evidence of a valid contract to travel, just not on that particular train.

Provided that time allows, there is no reason why a passenger could not alight and return to the point of origin and then validly travel on the correct train using that ticket.

Obviously the extra journeys would need to be paid for in addition to the cost of the Advance fare, but I see no reason why an Advance ticket is somehow invalidated because of ticketless travel on a different service.

There is also no obligation on the passenger to travel at all using the Advance ticket, so a failure to travel on the booked service would not in itself be a breach of contract.
 

Cantab26

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That's an interesting point, is "trying it on" with a wrong-time Advance actually fraud? I wouldn't say it was - you aren't deceiving[1] anyone, just asking to be allowed to get away with something that you aren't entitled to.

Fraud would be modifying the ticket or attempting to hide the time on it - some means of deceiving the guard into thinking it was valid. Or deliberately buying that cheaper Advance on the assumption you would get away with it e.g. because tickets were rarely checked on a given train.

Did the passenger perhaps do something like that?

[1] Fraud is "obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception" - for a fraud charge to stick there *has* to be wilful deception involved, i.e. an intent to mislead in some way leading to the financial gain.

For the purposes of fraud, it does not matter if anyone is as a matter of fact deceived. The offence is entirely focused on the conduct of the defendant.

The offence of fraud by false representation is made out if the defendant:
  • made a false representation;
  • dishonestly;
  • knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading; and
  • with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss.

A representation may be express or implied and can be communicated by conduct. Therefore, proffering an invalid ticket may constitute a representation for the purposes of the offence.

A representation is "false" if:
  • it is untrue or misleading; and
  • the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

The test for dishonesty is that set forth in R v Ghosh [1982] 1 QB 1053 and has two limbs:
  • was what was done dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people?
  • must the defendant have realised that what he was doing was, by those standards, dishonest?

Actual knowledge that the representation is or might be untrue is required, not awareness of a risk that it might be untrue.

Intent to make a gain includes keeping what one has and intent to cause a loss includes depriving the other person of what he would otherwise have had (i.e. not having to pay for a new ticket).

Therefore, if the jury concludes that as a matter of fact the Defendant knew that the ticket was invalid on that service, but proffered it anyway with the intent that he would not be charged for a new ticket, this is perfectly capable of constituting a fraud.

Fiddling about with the ticket provides evidence on which the jury could in theory infer:
  • dishonesty, because ordinary people don't fiddle with tickets;
  • knowledge, because why would he fiddle with the ticket unless he knew it was invalid; and
  • intent, because why would he fiddle with the ticket unless it was an attempt to get out of buying a new one.

On a practical level, I can't really see why a prosecutor would rely on a fraud charge when the railway legislation provides a much simpler means of pursuing fare evaders.
 

Bletchleyite

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This would rather depend on intent. If the passenger thought the guard might not notice, that would fit your destination. If they thought the guard might let them off, I don't believe it would - there's nothing dishonest about handing over an invalid ticket that the guard is likely to notice is invalid (only a truly incompetent guard wouldn't notice this) and letting them decide on charging extra or whatever.

OTOH, I did note the passenger was on the 13xx and booked on the 15xx...could have said something like "I thought that meant 3:nn" knowing full well it didn't. That would be fraud.

On a practical level, I can't really see why a prosecutor would rely on a fraud charge when the railway legislation provides a much simpler means of pursuing fare evaders.

I agree, I just brought it up in the context of the possible libel of openly accusing someone of fraud.
 

thejuggler

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How different from an East Coast guard I came across.

A couple were on the incorrect Lds - London service for their ticket, despite plenty of announcements. He advised them to alight at Wakefield and either wait the hour for their train, or to fill some time, travel back to Leeds on a single ticket and get the service the ticket was valid for.
 

najaB

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...there's nothing dishonest about handing over an invalid ticket that the guard is likely to notice is invalid (only a truly incompetent guard wouldn't notice this) and letting them decide on charging extra or whatever...
There is if you present it as a valid ticket, with the knowledge that it isn't. Intent is inferred from action and there's no difference in action from someone who is trying it on.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is if you present it as a valid ticket, with the knowledge that it isn't. Intent is inferred from action and there's no difference in action from someone who is trying it on.

As a criminal prosecution is to the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt", that dichotomy would mean a fraud charge would fail, because the other explanation (error, or handing the ticket over for the guard, who is likely to notice, to decide what to do) is possible, therefore there is reasonable doubt.

That would be totally removed by pointing out its invalidity, but even without that there is still reasonable doubt that the intention is to defraud, rather than for the guard to offer leniency.
 

6Gman

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How different from an East Coast guard I came across.

A couple were on the incorrect Lds - London service for their ticket, despite plenty of announcements. He advised them to alight at Wakefield and either wait the hour for their train, or to fill some time, travel back to Leeds on a single ticket and get the service the ticket was valid for.

And I was on a VT Chester-Euston train where somebody offered tickets for a train two hours later. Despite some "jobsworth" jibes at the TM she offered them the option of the full fare (c.£300 for the two of them) or alighting at Crewe to enjoy its delights for two hours! They chose the latter, and alighted.
 

Bletchleyite

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And I was on a VT Chester-Euston train where somebody offered tickets for a train two hours later. Despite some "jobsworth" jibes at the TM she offered them the option of the full fare (c.£300 for the two of them) or alighting at Crewe to enjoy its delights for two hours! They chose the latter, and alighted.

This, in practice, is the most sensible, pragmatic solution, as the passenger still doesn't get where they are going until the paid-for time so gains nothing.

BTW, two hours at Crewe at a mealtime isn't all bad, there's a good curry house up the road.
 

yorkie

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And I was on a VT Chester-Euston train where somebody offered tickets for a train two hours later. Despite some "jobsworth" jibes at the TM she offered them the option of the full fare (c.£300 for the two of them) or alighting at Crewe to enjoy its delights for two hours! They chose the latter, and alighted.
Was this a service for which a Chester to London Off Peak would have been valid?

If so, the TM was not a "jobsworth" as a "jobsworth" is "an official who upholds petty rules even at the expense of humanity or common sense" and would, in some ways, have been worse than that; I'm not sure what the word is for an official who does not uphold the rules correctly, as the rules state that in these circumstances the appropriate fare would be charged (including Railcard discounts where applicable).

However it is good to hear they had the option of awaiting the correct train at Crewe, and that most certainly is common sense.

So they weren't a jobsworth for two reasons ;)
 

najaB

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As a criminal prosecution is to the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt", that dichotomy would mean a fraud charge would fail, because the other explanation (error, or handing the ticket over for the guard, who is likely to notice, to decide what to do) is possible, therefore there is reasonable doubt.
I don't know if I can agree with that - in essence you are shifting the blame in a genuine intent to defraud from the fraudster to the defrauded: "They should have noticed it was fake/invalid".
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know if I can agree with that - in essence you are shifting the blame in a genuine intent to defraud from the fraudster to the defrauded: "They should have noticed it was fake/invalid".

I don't think blame is relevant - it's whether there is reasonable doubt, and in my view there is.
 
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