Advance Single for a Lumo Train that no longer exists

[Tom1791]

I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself may be able to help me out.

A while back I bought an advance single on the 6:14 Lumo service from Edinburgh to Kings Cross. I purchased the ticket on the Lumo app for travel on Tuesday. Yesterday I was looking at the new Lumo timetable that started on the 1st April and I saw that there is no longer any 6:14 departure from Edinburgh on Tuesdays. This train instead starts at Newcastle at 7:57.

My e-ticket is still visible in the app, dated for the correct day and time, yet the train won't be running. I've had no communication from Lumo at all, the only reason I know the train won't be running was because I looked at the timetable.

The first Lumo service to depart Edinburgh is at 9:11. I have a connecting train in London with GWR (also an advance single) that I will miss if I get the later service. Having to exchange and rebook a later train with GWR will cost me an additional £30.

I plan to contact Lumo customer services on Monday when they reopen after the weekend, but what rights do I have in this situation? Do I need to accept that I will miss my connection in London and have to fork out the extra £30, or should I be able to get ticket acceptance on another operator for a departure around 6:14 (even just to Newcastle to I can pick up the Lumo train from there). I would appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thank you in advance.

 

[DanNCL]

There’ll likely be two options available. One would be to take the first available Lumo service - as you’d arrive at your final destination nearly three hours late you’d be entitled to delay repay which would refund the full cost of your journey. You shouldn’t have to buy a new ticket for the later GWR service as it will be the railway’s fault you missed the booked service. GWR should accept the original advance on the later train with a simple explanation as to why you missed the original train (and on presentation of the Lumo advance).

Alternatively, as the train you have a ticket for is cancelled you could claim a full refund on your Lumo ticket now and rebook on an alternative train with LNER.

 

[realemil]

I have a connecting train in London with GWR (also an advance single) that I will miss if I get the later service. Having to exchange and rebook a later train with GWR will cost me an additional £30.

Most importantly, do not do this. You do not need to fork out any additional money to purchase new tickets.

I plan to contact Lumo customer services on Monday when they reopen after the weekend, but what rights do I have in this situation? Do I need to accept that I will miss my connection in London and have to fork out the extra £30, or should I be able to get ticket acceptance on another operator for a departure around 6:14 (even just to Newcastle to I can pick up the Lumo train from there). I would appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thank you in advance.

You should contact LNER and/or go to Edinburgh Ticket Office to see if you can get your ticket accepted on an LNER service around that time, 3 hours for the next Lumo service isn't acceptable.

Lumo may be able to also advise further on Monday if you contact them.

Keep in mind that Article 16(b) of the Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation says that if a delay of over an hour is expected, you should be rerouted at the earliest opportunity - so you should (legally) be rerouted, however, how that will work out is another question.

Logic says you should be put onto an LNER train to your Lumo destination, and go onwards from there.


If you do miss your GWR train, you should most importantly not purchase a new ticket. Your old ticket is 100% valid for the next GWR service to your destination, just board it. If somebody tries to sell you a new ticket, explain the situation; if they don't take it, (personally), I'd kick up a fuss, but I recommend you just purchase a new ticket and appeal it via GWR Support to obtain a refund.

One would be to take the first available Lumo service - as you’d arrive at your final destination nearly three hours late you’d be entitled to delay repay which would refund the full cost of your journey

With the new NRCoT, you're not entitled to Delay Repay, however, it's likely it would still be paid out - but who knows!

 

[Watershed]

I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable than myself may be able to help me out.

A while back I bought an advance single on the 6:14 Lumo service from Edinburgh to Kings Cross. I purchased the ticket on the Lumo app for travel on Tuesday. Yesterday I was looking at the new Lumo timetable that started on the 1st April and I saw that there is no longer any 6:14 departure from Edinburgh on Tuesdays. This train instead starts at Newcastle at 7:57.

My e-ticket is still visible in the app, dated for the correct day and time, yet the train won't be running. I've had no communication from Lumo at all, the only reason I know the train won't be running was because I looked at the timetable.

The first Lumo service to depart Edinburgh is at 9:11. I have a connecting train in London with GWR (also an advance single) that I will miss if I get the later service. Having to exchange and rebook a later train with GWR will cost me an additional £30.

I plan to contact Lumo customer services on Monday when they reopen after the weekend, but what rights do I have in this situation? Do I need to accept that I will miss my connection in London and have to fork out the extra £30, or should I be able to get ticket acceptance on another operator for a departure around 6:14 (even just to Newcastle to I can pick up the Lumo train from there). I would appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thank you in advance.

If you were to stick to the restrictions applying to your ticket, you would be delayed by around 3 hours. Therefore, as @realemil has said, Article 16(b) of the PRO entitles you to opt to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity.

That means that you would have to be rerouted on LNER, XC or TPE at least as far as Newcastle. Of course, if you turn up at Edinburgh in time for your originally booked train, you wouldn't be able to catch your booked Lumo service from Newcastle and so you'd have to be rerouted on LNER all the way to London as that would then be the earliest opportunity.

In practice, very few staff will be aware of the rights which the PRO gives, and industry training is still generally along the lines of the more restricted rights which the NRCoT enumerate. Therefore it's possible you will be (wrongly) refused rerouting. If that happens, make sure you have evidence of that refusal, as it will be part of the evidence you send to Lumo when you reclaim the additional fare(s) you are forced to buy to reroute at the earliest opportunity.

The GWR onward ticket shouldn't be too much of a problem as most staff are aware of the fact that you retain the same rights (including to take a later service if you miss a connection) when splitting. However if you are wrongly charged here, then again retain the evidence to claim this back from GWR.

Obviously all of this may cause some delay to your arrival. The NRCoT, and many TOCs' Passenger's Charters, now rather ludicrously state that delay compensation is only payable against the timetable in place at 10pm the night before. However, if you suffer a delay of 1+ hour, you also have the right to delay compensation under the PRO, which is not subject to this exclusion and instead is calculated against the "published timetable".

By any sensible interpretation this must mean the timetable advertised when booking your ticket. Claiming under the latter right is unlikely to be particularly straightforward, but I would certainly encourage you to raise a claim, if you do end up delayed. You only have 28 days to submit a claim so it's best to raise one, even if it's wrongly denied, as this can be appealed etc. after the fact - than to wait and then be out of time.

Unfortunately the industry is very poor at dealing with these kinds of issues, despite the fact that it's a relatively common occurrence. Sadly there is little likelihood of it improving anytime soon, and in the meantime you will just have to pay and claim back where necessary.

 

[Haywain]

You should contact LNER and/or go to Edinburgh Ticket Office to see if you can get your ticket accepted on an LNER service around that time, 3 hours for the next Lumo service isn't acceptable.

Lumo may be able to also advise further on Monday if you contact them.

This is not a delay but a planned cancellation and it should be entirely the responsibility of Lumo to make alternative arrangements. If the ticket has been bought directly from them it is very poor that they have not been in contact to advise if the change and the available options.

 

[realemil]

This is not a delay but a planned cancellation and it should be entirely the responsibility of Lumo to make alternative arrangements. If the ticket has been bought directly from them it is very poor that they have not been in contact to advise if the change and the available options.

I completely agree with you, but as this is the railway, things aren't always pro-passenger.

There's nothing on Lumo's JourneyCheck either, but I feel like that may be updated (one would hope)

 

[philthetube]

Suggest you print the relevant section of the rail passenger rights and carry that with you when visiting ticket offices.

 

[danielcanning]

If you were to stick to the restrictions applying to your ticket, you would be delayed by around 3 hours. Therefore, as @realemil has said, Article 16(b) of the PRO entitles you to opt to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity.

That means that you would have to be rerouted on LNER, XC or TPE at least as far as Newcastle. Of course, if you turn up at Edinburgh in time for your originally booked train, you wouldn't be able to catch your booked Lumo service from Newcastle and so you'd have to be rerouted on LNER all the way to London as that would then be the earliest opportunity.

In practice, very few staff will be aware of the rights which the PRO gives, and industry training is still generally along the lines of the more restricted rights which the NRCoT enumerate. Therefore it's possible you will be (wrongly) refused rerouting. If that happens, make sure you have evidence of that refusal, as it will be part of the evidence you send to Lumo when you reclaim the additional fare(s) you are forced to buy to reroute at the earliest opportunity.

The GWR onward ticket shouldn't be too much of a problem as most staff are aware of the fact that you retain the same rights (including to take a later service if you miss a connection) when splitting. However if you are wrongly charged here, then again retain the evidence to claim this back from GWR.

Obviously all of this may cause some delay to your arrival. The NRCoT, and many TOCs' Passenger's Charters, now rather ludicrously state that delay compensation is only payable against the timetable in place at 10pm the night before. However, if you suffer a delay of 1+ hour, you also have the right to delay compensation under the PRO, which is not subject to this exclusion and instead is calculated against the "published timetable".

By any sensible interpretation this must mean the timetable advertised when booking your ticket. Claiming under the latter right is unlikely to be particularly straightforward, but I would certainly encourage you to raise a claim, if you do end up delayed. You only have 28 days to submit a claim so it's best to raise one, even if it's wrongly denied, as this can be appealed etc. after the fact - than to wait and then be out of time.

Unfortunately the industry is very poor at dealing with these kinds of issues, despite the fact that it's a relatively common occurrence. Sadly there is little likelihood of it improving anytime soon, and in the meantime you will just have to pay and claim back where necessary.

Or simply carry a copy of the PRO, show it to the onboard staff and refuse to pay. If more passengers did this the TOC’s would soon learn their lesson…

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would contact Lumo amd ask what they expect you to do, much less hassle in the long run.

 

[Snow1964]

There is something seriously wrong with the Lumo App if it sold you a ticket for a train that is subsequently cancelled in advance, but although it knows you have the ticket, it hasn’t even given you a Heads Up.

I don’t mean the app should be finding an alternative, which might need human intervention, but continuing to advise all is ok is plainly wrong. It isn’t a hard process if a train is cancelled in advance to scan the existing reservations and send a warning.

In a perfect world wouldn’t be possible to cancel a train with reservations without the computerised booking noticing.

 

[jfollows]

It's not just Lumo, though, it's been documented here (by me, and by others) that Avanti do the same thing - book a ticket with them and they change its time but don't inform you of the change even though they have all the information they need to be able to do this.

 

[Haywain]

It's not just Lumo, though, it's been documented here (by me, and by others) that Avanti do the same thing - book a ticket with them and they change its time but don't inform you of the change even though they have all the information they need to be able to do this.

All very well but Lumo set out with the alleged intent to attract people away from airlines rather than from other train operators, so they should be acting in the way that airlines do.

 

[jfollows]

All very well but Lumo set out with the alleged intent to attract people away from airlines rather than from other train operators, so they should be acting in the way that airlines do.

Oh, I wasn’t meaning to excuse them in any way just because others are as bad as they are, I totally agree with you.

 

[trainophile]

It's not just Lumo, though, it's been documented here (by me, and by others) that Avanti do the same thing - book a ticket with them and they change its time but don't inform you of the change even though they have all the information they need to be able to do this.

Contrarily, I've had an email yesterday from TPE about the upcoming RMT weekend strike action, and including

and you are booked to travel on a service that will be affected.

Well I've checked my calendar and future tickets thoroughly, and I'm blowed if I can find a TPE booking that will be affected. I rarely travel at weekends anyway. So are they just including that as part of the general communication?

Can using the railways get any more complicated and frustrating?

 

[Blindtraveler]

My friend had this exact same situation on April 1st. Turned up for the 6 and when he couldn't find it on the boards went to the booking office as the customer service desk does not open at Edinburgh at that time. Was advised travel on cross countries 6:06 train as far as Newcastle. Having very briefly thrown it at the Trainline app it is now offering me a ticket from Edinburgh to kings cross starting on this service with cross-country and changing at Newcastle. Train line has even been clever enough to not offer me first class as obviously first class facilities are not available south of NCL LL


If this is the sort of stunt that lumo are going to pull on a regular basis, along with all their other assorted customer service misdemeanors then they will not last and quite frankly I wouldn't want them to if this is the level of service they wish to provide

 

[jfollows]

If this is the sort of stunt that lumo are going to pull on a regular basis, along with all their other assorted customer service misdemeanors then they will not last and quite frankly I wouldn't want them to if this is the level of service they wish to provide

It's almost impossible to imagine an airline doing the same, isn't it? Which Haywain points out is their competition. I don't like flying and many airlines have their faults, but not telling you about changes to their schedules is not normal.

 

[realemil]

This service appears to have been completely removed from Tuesday 5th until Sunday 24th.

So many people will be having similar issues I suspect

 

[AlterEgo]

It's almost impossible to imagine an airline doing the same, isn't it? Which Haywain points out is their competition. I don't like flying and many airlines have their faults, but not telling you about changes to their schedules is not normal.

Lumo's main competition is the long distance bus, not airlines.

 

[JonathanH]

This service appears to have been completely removed from Tuesday 5th until Sunday 24th.

So many people will be having similar issues I suspect

I'd imagine that, as the last train from London to Edinburgh, the 2018 has to terminate at Newcastle because of an engineering possession, and as a result, there is no unit for the 0614 from Edinburgh. Either that or it is just cut to save a crew diagram.

 

[jfollows]

Lumo's main competition is the long distance bus, not airlines.

You're probably right. The only time I've done the journey I flew from Edinburgh to London City Airport, so I'm probably biased by my memory.

 

[JonathanH]

Lumo's main competition is the long distance bus, not airlines.

I'd imagine it is LNER more than either coaches or airlines despite the claims that yielded them the paths.

Even fewer people use coaches between London and Edinburgh than aircraft and many more already use the train.

 

[Silver Cobra]

It's not just Lumo, though, it's been documented here (by me, and by others) that Avanti do the same thing - book a ticket with them and they change its time but don't inform you of the change even though they have all the information they need to be able to do this.

Avanti did notify me of the cancellation of the train I was booked to travel on back on the 19th March (the 1635 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, as for that day Avanti cancelled all of the xx35 MAN - EUS services), but I will admit they only notified me by email less than 24 hours before I was due to travel. Had I not checked my emails in time, I would have been none the wiser until turning up at Piccadilly to see the train cancelled.

 

[LowLevel]

Or simply carry a copy of the PRO, show it to the onboard staff and refuse to pay. If more passengers did this the TOC’s would soon learn their lesson…

Does the PRO give you the right to board any train of your choosing and wave it's paper manifestation at a ticket inspector with impunity though, or does it simply give you the right to insist to your train operator that they reroute you - whether that be in the form of arranging ticket acceptance with a particular operator, buying you a ticket for another operator, or paying for you to travel in a taxi?

As per others, my suggestion would be to do as has been done - contact Lumo, tell them the situation, remind them of the rules and allow them time to sort the issue out.

I've had issues with passengers travelling with Hull Trains before where their train has been cancelled and contrary to jumping on LNER and waving paperwork at them, the response from Hull Trains has been to put their passengers in a minibus to Peterborough and arrange ticket acceptance with Thameslink. It is still a rerouting after all.

 

[Starmill]

Does the PRO give you the right to board any train of your choosing and wave it's paper manifestation at a ticket inspector with impunity though, or does it simply give you the right to insist to your train operator that they reroute you - whether that be in the form of arranging ticket acceptance with a particular operator, buying you a ticket for another operator, or paying for you to travel in a taxi?

Indeed. Unfortunately you need to contact customer relations (for example, via twitter direct message or calling them), or speak to the staff at the station to ask for advice. Only if both options are impossible, or if both tell you that you don't have any travel options, would it be reasonable to just board. Though others have said essentially this already.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

Contrarily, I've had an email yesterday from TPE about the upcoming RMT weekend strike action, and including

Well I've checked my calendar and future tickets thoroughly, and I'm blowed if I can find a TPE booking that will be affected. I rarely travel at weekends anyway. So are they just including that as part of the general communication?

Can using the railways get any more complicated and frustrating?

That's a very strange one. It's definitely worth bearing in mind that timetables for strike days are usually uploaded with little advance notice and commonly are only uploaded the day before, I'm surprised you'd be notified if you're not travelling on any days a strike has been announced.

How odd.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2022 ==

There is something seriously wrong with the Lumo App if it sold you a ticket for a train that is subsequently cancelled in advance, but although it knows you have the ticket, it hasn’t even given you a Heads Up.

This is pretty normal. Only a handful of retailers let you know actively if your booking is affected by a late notice change. One is Avanti West Coast as several people have reported recently on the forum, LNER are also known to do it. There are likely to be a handful of others too, but in general alerts aren't sent. Even Avanti West Coast probably only let you know if it's a journey on their service. LNER did once get in touch to let me know about a strike on Northern however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the Lumo ticket to Kings Cross, and the GWR one from Paddington, i.e. there is a gap? It is far from clear that this would be treated as a through ticket. Some staff might, but the NRCoT does not make it clear.

Contacting Lumo and asking what to do is the best first plan. Make sure you tell them of the connection.

 

[maniacmartin]

This was what I was about to comment on too. Your rights would be much clearer if one of the Advances was to/from Zone U1

 

[Watershed]

Does the PRO give you the right to board any train of your choosing and wave it's paper manifestation at a ticket inspector with impunity though, or does it simply give you the right to insist to your train operator that they reroute you - whether that be in the form of arranging ticket acceptance with a particular operator, buying you a ticket for another operator, or paying for you to travel in a taxi?

As per others, my suggestion would be to do as has been done - contact Lumo, tell them the situation, remind them of the rules and allow them time to sort the issue out.

I've had issues with passengers travelling with Hull Trains before where their train has been cancelled and contrary to jumping on LNER and waving paperwork at them, the response from Hull Trains has been to put their passengers in a minibus to Peterborough and arrange ticket acceptance with Thameslink. It is still a rerouting after all.

It doesn't explicitly state that you can just get on, but it does state that you are entitled to re-routing at the earliest opportunity. Sending people in a minibus is highly unlikely to be the earliest opportunity unless there is disruption to LNER services. Not wanting to buy new Any Permitted tickets (if ticket acceptance is refused) isn't a good enough reason.

Is the Lumo ticket to Kings Cross, and the GWR one from Paddington, i.e. there is a gap? It is far from clear that this would be treated as a through ticket. Some staff might, but the NRCoT does not make it clear.

Contacting Lumo and asking what to do is the best first plan. Make sure you tell them of the connection.

Even if we were to accept that this means there is no through journey, the OP would still be entitled to be rerouted to London at the earliest opportunity.

So if they turn up to Edinburgh early, they should be rerouted onto the XC service connecting into their Lumo service at Newcastle. And if they turn up in time for their booked Lumo departure (thus meaning they can't connect into it at Newcastle), they should be rerouted on the next LNER service to London.

Either way, provided they allowed the minimum connection time across London, then they would likely arrive in plenty of time to catch their onward GWR service.

 

[Adam Williams]

There is something seriously wrong with the Lumo App if it sold you a ticket for a train that is subsequently cancelled in advance, but although it knows you have the ticket, it hasn’t even given you a Heads Up.

The problem is that each retailer has to independently implement all of this logic themselves and clearly it's historically not been an accreditation requirement to provide this sort of real-time service disruption notification to the customer, leading to the current mess we have now where it's horribly inconsistent and your experience during timetable cancellations / disruption varies based entirely on who you chose to book with. @Starmill has mentioned a few of the TOC retailers that'll do this properly - TrainSplit should and I am sure there are other independent retailers as well that have made a genuine effort here.

It's really no surprise the majority of customer surveyed in 2020 were unsatisfied with disruption-related information provisions.

We might start to see some improvements in this area with the delivery of the timetable comparator project, which may make some of the software development work slightly easier when it comes providing timetable change alerts, but it's frustrating to me that it's taken this long for the industry to realise there's a problem here.

 

[Kite159]

I'd imagine that, as the last train from London to Edinburgh, the 2018 has to terminate at Newcastle because of an engineering possession, and as a result, there is no unit for the 0614 from Edinburgh. Either that or it is just cut to save a crew diagram.

Or it's a way to save money on not having to book a hotel in Edinburgh for the staff who would be on the 06:14 from Edinburgh (and those who worked the train into Edinburgh assuming it's not the same staff).

 

[Haywain]

Even if we were to accept that this means there is no through journey, the OP would still be entitled to be rerouted to London at the earliest opportunity

I think it’s questionable whether a right to be rerouted can be taken to mean a right to just board another operator’s service.