Advance on Heavily Delayed Train - What Can You Do?

[xotGD]

Hi All,
This morning the train I had an Advance ticket for was delayed by over an hour. Under such circumstances, do I have an automatic right to catch the previous or next train, or in theory do I have to sit there watching multiple trains depart until my booked service shows up?

As it was, I arrived at the station in time for the previous service and the guard said it was OK for me to board. But I am curious to know whether under such circumstances they could have said "No"?

Thanks!

 

[island]

Do you want to know what your theoretical legal rights are, or what happens in practice, because these widely diverge?

 

[yorkie]

Hi All,
This morning the train I had an Advance ticket for was delayed by over an hour. Under such circumstances, do I have an automatic right to catch the previous or next train, or in theory do I have to sit there watching multiple trains depart until my booked service shows up?

As it was, I arrived at the station in time for the previous service and the guard said it was OK for me to board. But I am curious to know whether under such circumstances they could have said "No"?

Thanks!

You have the automatic right to take the previous train if operated by the same TOC as your ticket allows.

If it's a different TOC involved, then although you have the right to be re-routed, this can be very complex in practice.

 

[xotGD]

You have the automatic right to take the previous train if operated by the same TOC as your ticket allows.

If it's a different TOC involved, then although you have the right to be re-routed, this can be very complex in practice.

Thanks yorkie. Same TOC in my case. So is there a minimum duration of the delay to the booked train before this right kicks in?

Do you want to know what your theoretical legal rights are, or what happens in practice, because these widely diverge?

Legal rights please. I want to know if I needed to get the permission of the guard on the earlier train, or whether I could have boarded with impunity.

 

[Watershed]

If the delay in arrival at your final destination was anticipated to be more than an hour, you were entitled to require the operator in question to re-route you at the earliest opportunity under Article 16 of the PRO. In other words, they would have to make arrangements (e.g. ticket acceptance) for you to be able to travel on the next available service towards your destination. This re-routing is unfortunately not something that you can simply take into your own hands - you have to request it, and you may even have to buy a new ticket and then later claim back the cost if it's wrongly refused. This is a powerful right on paper, but the practicalities render it feeble in many circumstances.

However, the Advance ticket conditions provide you with more assistance as they simply say:

5.1 ... If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

There has been some debate about exactly how this works, however it's clear that unlike the PRO right to re-routing, this isn't something for which you need to obtain prior permission. Certainly if I were taking an alternative train that complied with my ticket's route/operator restrictions, I would be happy to rely on this as justification.

Whilst on the one hand, asking the guard before boarding may give you the peace of mind that they won't try and charge you extra for taking their train, there's always the chance that they don't know the rules and claim you can't take their train. That could then lead to an awkward situation if you nevertheless board and they try and ching you for a new ticket.

I would probably be less worried about that sort of situation arising on a regional service, such as ScotRail or Northern, than on the likes of LNER or Avanti, who seem to have quite a few Train Managers who are itching to tell people their tickets are invalid.

 

[greatkingrat]

You have the automatic right to take the previous train if operated by the same TOC as your ticket allows.

If it's a different TOC involved, then although you have the right to be re-routed, this can be very complex in practice.

The problem with taking an earlier train is at that point you can't be certain if your booked train will be over an hour late or not. It may make up time en route.

Does the PRO apply to anticipated delays, or only to actual delays?

 

[MrJeeves]

The problem with taking an earlier train is at that point you can't be certain if your booked train will be over an hour late or not. It may make up time en route.

Does the PRO apply to anticipated delays, or only to actual delays?

You would know that it is disrupted at your origin, at which point the advance terms immediately come into play as that is a delay while travelling.

PRO applies to any time there is a reasonable expectation of a delay 60m+.

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may either choose to have a:

• refund of the fare when the journey will no longer serve the passenger’s originally planned purpose. The refund will include the return journey where appropriate

or

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at the earliest opportunity

or

• continuation or re-routeing under comparable transport conditions to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience

 

[Watershed]

The problem with taking an earlier train is at that point you can't be certain if your booked train will be over an hour late or not. It may make up time en route.

That's true. But it's not about whether or not it actually does arrive 61+ mins late, it's about whether:

it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes

Unless a train has a lot of 'slack' (e.g. pathing or excess dwell time) I think it would be reasonable to simply take the current delay and extrapolate that. Equally, taking the estimated new arrival time from industry sources (NRE, apps etc.) would also be reasonable in most cases.

Does the PRO apply to anticipated delays, or only to actual delays?

As above, anticipated delays count. But - crucially - it's the anticipated delay in arrival at the final destination that counts, not any delay in departure. And the cutoff is 61+ mins (i.e. cancellation of a clockface hourly service doesn't count), not 60 minutes as the Government guidance wrongly says.

 

[xotGD]

Thanks all. It sounds like a 1-hour delay to the booked service is an important threshold.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks all. It sounds like a 1-hour delay to the booked service is an important threshold.

For your (sometimes theoretical) PRO rights to kick in, yes. There's no specified threshold for the remedy under the Advance conditions to kick in, just as there's no threshold for abandoning your journey and claiming a full refund due to a delay.

 

[D6975]

The last time this happened to me and my son, we just stayed in Wetherspoons next to Temple Meads drinking coffee and hot chocolate. We then caught our late running train and I claimed back a large slice of our ticket prices. Great if you're not in a hurry, reduced my travelling costs significantly. Having the departure boards in the Spoons was very useful on this occasion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last time this happened to me and my son, we just stayed in Wetherspoons next to Temple Meads drinking coffee and hot chocolate. We then caught our late running train and I claimed back a large slice of our ticket prices. Great if you're not in a hurry, reduced my travelling costs significantly. Having the departure boards in the Spoons was very useful on this occasion.

Certainly if not in a hurry just waiting for it and claiming the Delay Repay for a free trip can be a good option! Though if an announcement is made instructing passengers to take an earlier train you might find it's a hassle getting it.

 

[xotGD]

Certainly if not in a hurry just waiting for it and claiming the Delay Repay for a free trip can be a good option! Though if an announcement is made instructing passengers to take an earlier train you might find it's a hassle getting it.

You could end up in a ridiculous situation where you are delayed by almost an hour because your train is very late, but you would have only been delayed by 10 minutes if it had been cancelled and you were able to take the next available service.

There ought to be a rule along the lines of "if the train after the one you are booked on comes first, you are able to travel on it" possibly extending to "and under these circumstances, if you are there in time for the previous train, you can travel on that too".

So let's say there is 10:00, a 10:15 (for which I have an Advance) and a 10:30. The 10:15 is shown as running 20 minutes late, and is expected at 10:35, while the other two services are running on time. Under these circumstances, I should be able to travel on the 10:30, and potentially also the 10:00 if we extend the rule, without having to seek permission.

 

[MrJeeves]

There ought to be a rule along the lines of "if the train after the one you are booked on comes first, you are able to travel on it" possibly extending to "and under these circumstances, if you are there in time for the previous train, you can travel on that too".

Isn't this basically exactly what the advance ticket terms say?

5.1 ... If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

 

[voyagerdude220]

5.1 ... If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Whilst I think the wording could be improved, I get the impression this clause is simply in place to reassure passengers holding Advance tickets for journeys which involve more than one train that they won't be charged for new tickets in the event of their first train being delayed and them missing their booked connection.

(Not simply giving passengers holding Advance tickets permission to get any train which may turn up before their booked train).

 

[MrJeeves]

Whilst I think the wording could be improved, I get the impression this clause is simply in place to reassure passengers holding Advance tickets for journeys which involve more than one train that they won't be charged for new tickets in the event of their first train being delayed and them missing their booked connection.

(Not simply giving passengers holding Advance tickets permission to get any train which may turn up before their booked train).

I'd probably take the plunge and risk it. I think it could be argued that a delay while travelling would include the first leg of your journey. The moment you enter the station, I would say you have started travelling.

Whether that's the intent of the rule or not, I don't think you'd have much trouble if you said "my train was 60 mins late so I got this one at roughly the time of my advance" in reality.

 

[pelli]

Whether that's the intent of the rule or not, I don't think you'd have much trouble if you said "my train was 60 mins late so I got this one at roughly the time of my advance" in reality.

However, in the case (admittedly involving a much smaller delay than an hour) of "I was booked on the 16:46 but it was 11 minutes late and I mistakenly boarded the 16:30, as it was delayed and pulled in to the station at the time of my expected train" then expect to be served an Unpaid Fares Notice which after a failed appeal and refusal of payment naturally escalates towards prosecution.

 

[158801]

This is where the railway fails.

Phrases like

"If you are delayed you can take the next available train"

"If your train is delayed you can get a full refund if you decide not to travel'.

There should be specifics.

I'm booked on the 11:15. It's one minute late. So that entities me to take the next train or get a full refund!

There needs to be an advertised timescale

 

[317 forever]

I'll give you an example where Delay Repay, even if granted, is worthless.

Suppose you are having a day out in London from Leicester and you have Advance Singles both ways. The line has a delay due to signal failure for example, and you arrive in London an hour late.

They do allow you Delay Repay (sometimes) for the delay on the outbound leg. What they never allow, as far as I know, is for you to have the length of day in London you paid for. So, the railway may cause you to reach London an hour late but they do not allow you to catch the return train an hour later to recoup the lost hour in London.

 

[Watershed]

I'll give you an example where Delay Repay, even if granted, is worthless.

Suppose you are having a day out in London from Leicester and you have Advance Singles both ways. The line has a delay due to signal failure for example, and you arrive in London an hour late.

They do allow you Delay Repay (sometimes) for the delay on the outbound leg. What they never allow, as far as I know, is for you to have the length of day in London you paid for. So, the railway may cause you to reach London an hour late but they do not allow you to catch the return train an hour later to recoup the lost hour in London.

You're right - however, the Delay Repay from the outbound journey may be sufficient to pay for your return Advance to be changed to a later departure or 'excessed' to a walk-up ticket.

This is one area where Advances being single tickets (effectively deemed separate journeys on your outward and return legs) is disadvantageous; for flights, you're entitled to insist on being rebooked to a later flight to maintain your length of stay if you have a return booking and your outward flight is cancelled or severely delayed.

 

[miklcct]

This is one area where Advances being single tickets (effectively deemed separate journeys on your outward and return legs) is disadvantageous; for flights, you're entitled to insist on being rebooked to a later flight to maintain your length of stay if you have a return booking and your outward flight is cancelled or severely delayed.

Even if the pair of Advance tickets is bought as a single return journey from the online retailer?

 

[Watershed]

Even if the pair of Advance tickets is bought as a single return journey from the online retailer?

There's clearly the right to refund both, but I don't see that there's a right to extend your stay fee-free.

 

[Haywain]

What they never allow, as far as I know, is for you to have the length of day in London you paid for. So, the railway may cause you to reach London an hour late but they do not allow you to catch the return train an hour later to recoup the lost hour in London.

Have you asked? When there is severe disruption this may be accommodated.