Advance more expensive than flexible

[modernrail]

The fares booking engines seem to be getting more bonkers by the day, as well as completely unusable because of the amount of disruption.

What is this though? I have seen Advance fares prices ridiculously close to the flexible fare, which is blatantly out of order. Pricing at above the flexible fare though???

Also a note to guards out there. I have just witnessed a Dad with his 2 daughters being charged on an Avanti service from Stafford a fresh fare because he had a ticket for LNWR. The next 2 trains LNWR trains were cancelled. At a time when Avanti is pathetic, there is disruption on a particular day and there is general disruption because of your industrial action (which I make no judgement about) it would be nice if you could be a bit human and use your maximum discretion and just walk on.

The Dad in question has spent the rest of the journey visibly upset no doubt wondering how on earth he is going to afford the rest of the day our he had planned for his girls.

In most dimensions the railway would take responsibility for itself and not dream of recharging in such a situation. Not in the UK it seems.

 

[alistairlees]

So, what is the journey? The screenshot includes prices, but no details about the journey, date or time.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The fares booking engines seem to be getting more bonkers by the day, as well as completely unusable because of the amount of disruption.

What is this though? I have seen Advance fares prices ridiculously close to the flexible fare, which is blatantly out of order. Pricing at above the flexible fare though???

Also a note to guards out there. I have just witnessed a Dad with his 2 daughters being charged on an Avanti service from Stafford a fresh fare because he had a ticket for LNWR. The next 2 trains LNWR trains were cancelled. At a time when Avanti is pathetic, there is disruption on a particular day and there is general disruption because of your industrial action (which I make no judgement about) it would be nice if you could be a bit human and use your maximum discretion and just walk on.

The Dad in question has spent the rest of the journey visibly upset no doubt wondering how on earth he is going to afford the rest of the day our he had planned for his girls.

In most dimensions the railway would take responsibility for itself and not dream of recharging in such a situation. Not in the UK it seems.

As a Guard myself, I can assure you that the vast majority are prepared to show a bit of give and take (human decency!) in such situations - but don't forget there could well be more to that situation that you're not aware of. At the end of the day, they did have an invalid ticket, and the Guard was acting quite within his rights. I would, I think, have acted differently, however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't surprise me if this happened on Fridays if they have forgotten to remove the higher Advance quotas when they removed the Off Peak restrictions. Was it for a Friday formerly peak time?

 

[Class800]

We need to be more human. We need as a society to be fairer and more understanding. I would want to see situations like this Father described taken far more seriously. That's all I feel I can say on the matter

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2023 ==

As a Guard myself, I can assure you that the vast majority are prepared to show a bit of give and take (human decency!) in such situations - but don't forget there could well be more to that situation that you're not aware of. At the end of the day, they did have an invalid ticket, and the Guard was acting quite within his rights. I would, I think, have acted differently, however.

in front of children, this is quite concerning that this is permitted - although currently it is. I won't comment further on this, but it needs to change

 

[AlterEgo]

in front of children, this is quite concerning that this is permitted - although currently it is.

Why shouldn't you be allowed to sell a new ticket in front of children?

 

[modernrail]

Wouldn't surprise me if this happened on Fridays if they have forgotten to remove the higher Advance quotas when they removed the Off Peak restrictions. Was it for a Friday formerly peak time?

I had to think hard on that one as it has been an interesting week of booking with about 8 different journeys I don’t do frequently.

It is Alsager to London, for lunchtime today. I can’t remember the exact time of the service.

I am pretty sure I am seeing this happen more and more, but can’t be certain. Then again I thought I was imagining the Advance being 50p cheaper than the flexible ticket thing for ages before I realised, no they really are being that cynical and trying to trick you into worse T&Cs.

Which then results in exactly the sort of situation I witnessed on the Avanti service. Okay that was a ticket for a different operator but how many times do I have to see someone who has missed their advance booked service, that might have cost only 50p less, for them to be charged a whole new fare.

If guards really want to get the public on their side with strikes (and the question of whether there should be guards at all), they would do well to start to refuse to enforce some of these more ridiculous and cyclical situations.

 

[modernrail]

No believe me, this particular guard was enforcing everything to the letter.

On Avanti or TPE, there are no grounds for acting like that and there won’t be for a long time. People are still arriving at the station with no clue as to whether a train will pull up and if it does, if it will make it to its destination. It is no good just pretending none of that exists because your particular service is a guilded palace and managed to leave Manchester on time. In any case it didn’t, it was also running late.

 

[trainophile]

In a similar scenario, the other day (Thurs 16th Feb) when there was major disruption ex-Glasgow, due to an 'emergency services' incident at Motherwell, and everything was delayed, my booked Avanti train (Advance ticket) from Carlisle was running approx 40 minutes late, whereas the previous one, also severely delayed, was showing as due to arrive about five minutes from my arrival at the station from Newcastle.

I was told both on Twitter and on the station platform by an Avanti person with a clipboard that due to my type of ticket I must wait around for the train on my ticket. I found this extremely annoying and unnecessary, what was the point of hanging around for an hour when there was a train by the same operator departing within a few minutes?

I wouldn't have dreamed of expecting this sort of leeway if things were running to time, but in disruption it seemed petty in the extreme to deny me getting the earlier train even though it wasn't the one shown on my ticket.

 

[njr001]

Bonkers, I hope you claimed delay repay.

 

[trainophile]

It was only a cheapo ticket so not worth the hassle, but I do think it's crazy that they would rather pay out delay repay than go with the logical option.

 

[yorkie]

The fares booking engines seem to be getting more bonkers by the day, as well as completely unusable because of the amount of disruption.

What is this though? I have seen Advance fares prices ridiculously close to the flexible fare, which is blatantly out of order. Pricing at above the flexible fare though???

Also a note to guards out there. I have just witnessed a Dad with his 2 daughters being charged on an Avanti service from Stafford a fresh fare because he had a ticket for LNWR. The next 2 trains LNWR trains were cancelled. At a time when Avanti is pathetic, there is disruption on a particular day and there is general disruption because of your industrial action (which I make no judgement about) it would be nice if you could be a bit human and use your maximum discretion and just walk on.

The Dad in question has spent the rest of the journey visibly upset no doubt wondering how on earth he is going to afford the rest of the day our he had planned for his girls.

In most dimensions the railway would take responsibility for itself and not dream of recharging in such a situation. Not in the UK it seems.

I would encourage you to write to Avanti to voice your displeasure, not that they will care or do anything, but it's the principle.

As for the Guard having the right to do this, well that right should be removed from them in situations such as this.

I see people who act in this manner as enemies of the rail industry; they are selfish individuals who are after their own commission and satisfying their own egos.

They are a minority for sure, but a very noticeable minority, especially on Avanti.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I would encourage you to write to Avanti to voice your displeasure, not that they will care or do anything, but it's the principle.

As for the Guard having the right to do this, well that right should be removed from them in situations such as this.

I see people who act in this manner as enemies of the rail industry; they are selfish individuals who are after their own commission and satisfying their own egos.

They are a minority for sure, but a very noticeable minority, especially on Avanti.

He was literally doing his job, and shouldn't be demonised for that.

 

[MrJeeves]

He was literally doing his job, and shouldn't be demonised for that.

IMO, there are times when discretion should be shown, though, and, if this was the case, this would be one of those times. If the dad didn't explain the situation re cancelled LNR trains, then I wouldn't put any blame on the Avanti guard, however.

 

[Watershed]

Also a note to guards out there. I have just witnessed a Dad with his 2 daughters being charged on an Avanti service from Stafford a fresh fare because he had a ticket for LNWR. The next 2 trains LNWR trains were cancelled. At a time when Avanti is pathetic, there is disruption on a particular day and there is general disruption because of your industrial action (which I make no judgement about) it would be nice if you could be a bit human and use your maximum discretion and just walk on.

I'm presuming their booked train had been cancelled? LNR were obliged to arrange ticket acceptance (or otherwise buy passengers new tickets etc.) to allow passengers to travel on the Avanti service, as the cancellation of three consecutive services means that passengers would otherwise face a delay of more than an hour.

Whilst, in the absence of such ticket acceptance, passengers aren't just entitled to simply board the Avanti service - they would be entitled to claim back any costs they reasonably incur (e.g. a new ticket) if LNR has failed to arrange the required ticket acceptance.

In a similar scenario, the other day (Thurs 16th Feb) when there was major disruption ex-Glasgow, due to an 'emergency services' incident at Motherwell, and everything was delayed, my booked Avanti train (Advance ticket) from Carlisle was running approx 40 minutes late, whereas the previous one, also severely delayed, was showing as due to arrive about five minutes from my arrival at the station from Newcastle.

I was told both on Twitter and on the station platform by an Avanti person with a clipboard that due to my type of ticket I must wait around for the train on my ticket. I found this extremely annoying and unnecessary, what was the point of hanging around for an hour when there was a train by the same operator departing within a few minutes?

I wouldn't have dreamed of expecting this sort of leeway if things were running to time, but in disruption it seemed petty in the extreme to deny me getting the earlier train even though it wasn't the one shown on my ticket.

The Advance ticket terms say:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Therefore the platform and Twitter staff were completely incorrect to tell you that you had to wait for your booked service. You were entitled to travel on the "next available train(s)" once your train became delayed.

He was literally doing his job, and shouldn't be demonised for that.

He was doing his job in a manner likely to bring the industry into disrepute. He deserves every bit of flak he gets!

 

[yorkie]

He was literally doing his job, and shouldn't be demonised for that.

That's not doing the job properly if common sense is applied.

Avanti train managers are employed in a people oriented role; they need to be able to raise the bar, and are required to deliver a level of excellence in customer service.

They are not in any way required to act in the manner described in the opening post, which would appear to be contrary to the company's values and risks brining the entire industry into disrepute.

 

[InkyScrolls]

That's not doing the job properly if common sense is applied.

Avanti train managers are employed in a people oriented role; they need to be able to raise the bar, and are required to deliver a level of excellence in customer service.

They are not in any way required to act in the manner described in the opening post, which would appear to be contrary to the company's values and risks brining the entire industry into disrepute.

At no point have I said I agreed with his actions - in fact I stated in my first post on this thread that I would have acted very differently - but that doesn't change the fact that the train manager was undertaking his role correctly, if ticket acceptance has not been arranged.

 

[yorkie]

At no point have I said I agreed with his actions - in fact I stated in my first post on this thread that I would have acted very differently - but that doesn't change the fact that the train manager was undertaking his role correctly, if ticket acceptance has not been arranged.

I'm not convinced that doing a role correctly involves going against the core values of the role, but we should agree to disagree as we are going round in circles.

 

[JamieL]

The situation described in the OP sounds very disappointing. Not in anyway to undermine what must have been a frustrating situation for all, would the person not get a full refund on their LNWR ticket though via delay repay? I appreciate that not everyone knows about delay repay.

It does show the difficulty with advance tickets though. Great when everything runs on-time as expected but things can go south pretty quickly when any unexpected complexity is added be that though delays, cancellations and other frictions. Also, it seems to me that many people don't understand advance tickets. On so many journeys I have overheard a guard having to explain what an advanced ticket is and how it is only valid for one specific train - often to customers who simply don't compute why their ticket for the 0832 is not valid on the 0802 service! If I have heard it many times as a passenger, I can only imagine how exasperated staff must get explaining it time and again.

Perhaps there should be better explanations when buying an advance ticket with additional focus on what happens if there is disruption in the journey. Perhaps there should be a rule that if the original train is delayed or cancelled the advance defaults to an Anytime/Off-Peak Anytime etc.

 

[30907]

Belatedly back to the topic as per the thread title -

Wouldn't surprise me if this happened on Fridays if they have forgotten to remove the higher Advance quotas when they removed the Off Peak restrictions.

A look at BRFares shows the maximum Advance fare being £176 which is well above the Anytime single. This suggests it is Avanti policy not an error.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I'm not convinced that doing a role correctly involves going against the core values of the role, but we should agree to disagree as we are going round in circles.

I understand where you're coming from - I suppose it's spirit vs. letter of the law! As I say, it's certainly not what I would have done, but I would still say the guard was technically doing his job exactly as intended.

 

[WAB]

The situation described in the OP sounds very disappointing. Not in anyway to undermine what must have been a frustrating situation for all, would the person not get a full refund on their LNWR ticket though via delay repay? I appreciate that not everyone knows about delay repay.

It does show the difficulty with advance tickets though. Great when everything runs on-time as expected but things can go south pretty quickly when any unexpected complexity is added be that though delays, cancellations and other frictions. Also, it seems to me that many people don't understand advance tickets. On so many journeys I have overheard a guard having to explain what an advanced ticket is and how it is only valid for one specific train - often to customers who simply don't compute why their ticket for the 0832 is not valid on the 0802 service! If I have heard it many times as a passenger, I can only imagine how exasperated staff must get explaining it time and again.

Perhaps there should be better explanations when buying an advance ticket with additional focus on what happens if there is disruption in the journey. Perhaps there should be a rule that if the original train is delayed or cancelled the advance defaults to an Anytime/Off-Peak Anytime etc.

Maybe they should be renamed to 'fixed' tickets, with anytime becoming flexible and off-peak becoming flexible? Particularly as the traditional peak is not as set as it used to be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe they should be renamed to 'fixed' tickets, with anytime becoming flexible and off-peak becoming flexible? Particularly as the traditional peak is not as set as it used to be.

Though they're not. Airlines would call them semi-flexible as they're changeable against a fee - fixed airline tickets are just that - totally fixed with no change of any kind possible. Though I do think that would be more understandable.

 

[yorkie]

Maybe they should be renamed to 'fixed' tickets, with anytime becoming flexible and off-peak becoming flexible? Particularly as the traditional peak is not as set as it used to be.

They already had a renaming exercise (branded "simplification"!) around 15 years ago.

 

[modernrail]

Belatedly back to the topic as per the thread title -

A look at BRFares shows the maximum Advance fare being £176 which is well above the Anytime single. This suggests it is Avanti policy not an error.

Well that doesn’t read well if I am understanding the post correctly. The legal definition of theft is an intention to permanently deprive. Is there any reason why this practice is not theft bearing in mind that any reasonable person, be they the man on the Clapham Omnibus or any breathing human, would expect the Advance to be at the very very least cheaper than the cheapest flexible ticket for that service.

As the Advance is literally only for that particular service, there can be no justification for this surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that doesn’t read well if I am understanding the post correctly. The legal definition of theft is an intention to permanently deprive. Is there any reason why this practice is not theft bearing in mind that any reasonable person, be they the man on the Clapham Omnibus or any breathing human, would expect the Advance to be at the very very least cheaper than the cheapest flexible ticket for that service.

As the Advance is literally only for that particular service, there can be no justification for this surely?

Why would anyone even buy it?

 

[yorkie]

Well that doesn’t read well if I am understanding the post correctly. The legal definition of theft is an intention to permanently deprive. Is there any reason why this practice is not theft bearing in mind that any reasonable person, be they the man on the Clapham Omnibus or any breathing human, would expect the Advance to be at the very very least cheaper than the cheapest flexible ticket for that service.

As the Advance is literally only for that particular service, there can be no justification for this surely?

Legally it is not theft.

It is not as uncommon as people sometimes think to have Advance fares priced higher than flexible walk up fares. Or, much more commonly, Advance fares to be only a nominal sum lower, which is extremely poor value given the loss of contractual rights.

I don't think there is anything that cancan realistically be done about such sharp practice, however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2023 ==

Why would anyone even buy it?

Some booking engines present Advance fares at the top of the results, regardless of price, and don't offer a warning if a cheaper flexible fare is available.

However, if presented with the choice in a manner that is easy to understand, no customer would make that choice.

 

[Trainbike46]

Belatedly back to the topic as per the thread title -

A look at BRFares shows the maximum Advance fare being £176 which is well above the Anytime single. This suggests it is Avanti policy not an error.

Why would anyone even buy it?

It makes me wonder, how long have these high advance fares been in the system, and if they have been added recently, whether they were added in anticipation of something happening to the flexible anytime/off-peak fares

 

[Haywain]

A look at BRFares shows the maximum Advance fare being £176 which is well above the Anytime single.

For which journey?

 

[yorkie]

Also just because a fare is in BRFares doesn't necessarily mean it's actually going to be offered for sale...