Advance missed connection.

[faddy]

My daughter was travelling yesterday from Blackheath to Liverpool and a delay in the Blackheath departure caused her to miss her connection at Euston. She travelled on PAYG Oyster to Euston and held on her phone an e-ticket First Advance issued by Virgin's website.

She explained her situation to the very busy Virgin help desk at Euston, who told her that her e-ticket could only be used on the booked train. She therefore purchased a Standard Class Off-Peak Return (she already had an Standard Class Advance for the return leg but planned to use the return portion of the new ticket for future travel). She took the next departure from Euston and bought a Weekend First upgrade onboard.

If she contacts Virgin now would they be under any obligation to provide a refund on either ticket, or failing that are they likely to do so as a goodwill gesture (she is a regular customer of Virgin's website)?

As evidence she has a screenshot from NRE showing the delayed departure from Blackheath, her Oyster history, and her timed receipt for the Weekend First upgrade.

 

[causton]

With Oyster, unfortunately there is no obligation. If it is around the same price next time, she should buy a through advance from Blackheath to Liverpool as this would have then covered her for the delay.

If you drop Virgin an email they will probably give you something for your troubles - as they are known for compensating people even if they are not strictly obligated to, you may get a voucher or a free first class upgrade or something

 

[island]

No refund entitlement if she chose to use Oyster PAYG for part of the journey. Had she purchased a paper ticket from Blackheath to Zone U123* Londn (or indeed an advance ticket from Blackheath through to Liverpool Stations) then she would have been able to have the ticket endorsed onto the next relevant Virgin train, assuming that she allowed enough time for her cross-London transfer. Reviewing delays on Blackheath to London services yesterday, there was only one more than ten minutes or so late (which was in any event overtaken by an on-time service) so I think she probably cut it too tight and would not have been entitled to anything.

For future reference, the minimum connection time from London Bridge to London Euston is 53 minutes. Also, she could if she wished have amended her return ticket (if not an e-ticket) to an off-peak return in the opposite direction, paying the fare difference plus £10. The same option would have been available at (say) London Bridge booking office if she had a traditional ticket and had arrived there before her outbound departure from Euston.

 

[faddy]

With Oyster, unfortunately there is no obligation.

Although this wasn't the reason for Virgin's refusal at Euston - they showed no interest in how she'd travelled from Blackheath. A paper ticket Blackheath ->Euston would have covered her? If she had had a paper ticket and had been refused travel on the next Euston departure would she be eligible for a refund?

If it is around the same price next time, she should buy a through advance from Blackheath to Liverpool as this would have then covered her for the delay.)

Do these come out of the same quota as London -> Liverpool Advances?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Unlucky. About 18 months ago I had a similar situation from Southall to Carlisle. Advance ticket from Euston and Contactless across London. Heathrow Connect delayed by 45 minutes after passing Acton and consequently missed my train from Euston. Explained the situation at Euston, they looked up the delay and endorsed my ticket for the next train at no extra charge.

 

[faddy]

Reviewing delays on Blackheath to London services yesterday, there was only one more than ten minutes or so late (which was in any event overtaken by an on-time service) so I think she probably cut it too tight and would not have been entitled to anything.

She travelled on the 16:15 from Blackheath which was shown as running 11 minutes late when she got to the station. Where does one look up yesterday's running times?

For future reference, the minimum connection time from London Bridge to London Euston is 53 minutes.

She'd used the TfL travel planner, requesting a journey that would have arrived Euston 7 minutes before departure for Liverpool and it returned a journey that should have arrived approx 15 minutes before departure. Presumably she should have used the NRE journey planner to get an itinerary that encompasses National Rail minimum connection times?

 

[yorkie]

See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1179550#post1179550

From the Advance Fare FAQ:

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office,
change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.

There is - and I strongly disagree with this - an exception for "Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards" however this is "allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres" so if she visited the Travel Centre, she should not have been denied travel.

Virgin Trains were wrong, as usual.

The full clause regarding such tickets is :

Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (but allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres).

 

[najaB]

Is Oyster PAYG a ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Is Oyster PAYG a ticket?

It's a fare, which is the correct term to use, rather than "ticket".

I hope no-one will attempt to use pedantry to defend the indefensible; it's abundantly clear such a combination can be used legitimately for one journey.

 

[faddy]

With Oyster, unfortunately there is no obligation.

From Q22 of the Knowledgebase Advance FAQs on these boards:
"Not included: for the avoidance of doubt, are:
Non train-company travel on separate tickets e.g. journeys that commence on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (This includes “PlusBus” which is a local day- Rover bus ticket, not compatible with a medium/ long distance ‘Advance’ single journey, so are kept as separate tickets); or
Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (but allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres)."

Does the bit in bold mean she could have produced her Oyster at the Euston ticket office and had her ticket endorsed?

If she'd had a paper ticket would it need to have been endorsed at Euston or should gateline staff or Virgin train manager have been able to check the delay on the connecting train and allow her to travel? And if she was refused so bought a new ticket should she subsequently have been able to obtain a refund of that new ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Does the bit in bold mean she could have produced her Oyster at the Euston ticket office and had her ticket endorsed?

That should have happened, yes.

Provided there was a valid interchange time allowed, it should be treated as one journey.

If she'd had a paper ticket would it need to have been endorsed at Euston or should gateline staff or Virgin train manager have been able to check the delay on the connecting train and allow her to travel? And if she was refused so bought a new ticket should she subsequently have been able to obtain a refund of that new ticket?

There is no requirement for any "endorsement" with paper tickets; simply show the tickets to anyone who asks to see them, and mention details of the delay.

My advice is for everyone to stick to traditional printed tickets, as some alternatives may lose you rights. I will only withdraw this advice when I see absolute assurances from the rail industry that no such rights will be lost, and when I see appropriate wording in all relevant documentation. We're a long way from that currently.

 

[najaB]

It's a fare, which is the correct term to use, rather than "ticket".

I hope no-one will attempt to use pedantry to defend the indefensible; it's abundantly clear the combination was valid combination of tickets/fares/whatever for the journey.

It's not an attempt to defend anything. I thought it was pretty obviously a question. I was under the impression that they were still allowed.

 

[faddy]

Have edited my reply above to correct scheduled departure time from Blackheath to 16:15. Scheduled departure time from Euston was 17:07.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have edited my reply above to correct scheduled departure time from Blackheath to 16:15. Scheduled departure time from Euston was 17:07.

Almost certainly not a valid connection, it seems way too short for me. Furthermore I can't make the journey planner give that connection off the 1615 from Blackheath; it would be necessary to travel about 10 minutes earlier to get it.

So I would say no refund due for that reason alone.

 

[Mag_seven]

As evidence she has a screenshot from NRE showing the delayed departure from Blackheath, her Oyster history, and her timed receipt for the Weekend First upgrade.

According to RTT, the 16.15 from Blackheath ran to time yesterday

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W56425/2016/11/12/advanced

As has already been stated even if it was delayed not enough connection time has been made for crossing London.

 

[island]

Almost certainly not a valid connection, it seems way too short for me. Furthermore I can't make the journey planner give that connection off the 1615 from Blackheath; it would be necessary to travel about 10 minutes earlier to get it.

So I would say no refund due for that reason alone.

The 1615 from Blackheath was due at London Charing Cross at 1637. The minimum official connection time from London Charing Cross to London Euston between 0700-1900 is 38 minutes, but the train the passenger chose to use only gave her 30. Therefore I agree that no refund/revalidation/acceptance was due for this reason, irrespective of whether or not the train was in fact delayed, which isn't entirely clear.

The question of whether, had she allowed enough time, her choice of Oyster rather than a paper ticket would also have militated against her is therefore moot, but considering it anyway, the advance FAQ clearly says that smartcards are "not included" for revalidation of advance tickets to a later train in the case of delays unless the ticket is electronically checked, the delay verified, and the Advance ticket endorsed, and does not oblige TOCs to do any of those things or have the facilities to do any of them. One might say the words are otiose if they did not imply such an obligation. One might also say that an internal rail industry guidance document is not part of the contract between the railway and the passenger to carry the passenger on a train. The only valid conclusion is that it is debatable/discretionary whether Oyster can be accepted as a ticket for part of a journey in order to engage the much-discussed FAQ22, and that a passenger seeking to benefit from the said FAQ would be well-advised to stick to good old-fashioned no-nonsense traditional orange and green paper tickets.

 

[najaB]

The only valid conclusion is that it is debatable/discretionary whether Oyster can be accepted as a ticket for part of a journey in order to engage the much-discussed FAQ22, and that a passenger seeking to benefit from the said FAQ would be well-advised to stick to good old-fashioned no-nonsense traditional orange and green paper tickets.

So it seems the answer to my question is "maybe".

 

[AlterEgo]

Almost certainly not a valid connection, it seems way too short for me. Furthermore I can't make the journey planner give that connection off the 1615 from Blackheath; it would be necessary to travel about 10 minutes earlier to get it.

So I would say no refund due for that reason alone.

Agreed. There is no need to look into anything else. The connection was not valid.

 

[faddy]

Almost certainly not a valid connection, it seems way too short for me.

She used the TfL journey planner. If I tell it that I wish to travel from Blackheath to Euston next Saturday to arrive by 17:00 it suggests the 16:15 departure arriving at Euston at 16:52. Not valid perhaps (presumably she should have used an NRE itinerary), but "way too short"?

 

[323235]

A few months ago I was travelling Romford - Manchester via bus, train and tube on Oyster and an advance. I was delayed and the advance was endorsed by the Virgin ticket office at Euston without any of the checks described and without any hassle (from reading the forum regularly I was expecting some trouble).

 

[causton]

She used the TfL journey planner. If I tell it that I wish to travel from Blackheath to Euston next Saturday to arrive by 17:00 it suggests the 16:15 departure arriving at Euston at 16:52. Not valid perhaps (presumably she should have used an NRE itinerary), but "way too short"?

Definitely too short at that time of day, considering how busy the platform could be, two or three minutes to get off the platform if you're at the wrong end. Another three or four minutes to get to the bottom of the main escalators... and there are escalator works at Euston going on, so it could be another minute or two queueing for the one working up escalator. 'Generously' giving two minutes to get through the Underground gates, then up to the concourse via the lift/stairs/escalator etc., that gives... two minutes to find what platform your train goes from, get across a crowded Euston concourse, get down the ramp, get your ticket inspected and make it to the train in the right coach (hope you didn't book the quiet coach!) before the platform gates close and boarding finishes 2 minutes prior to departure.

One time I did the reverse with a walk to St Pancras, I told someone what time I was arriving at Euston (for example, 12:50) and they replied "Oh, so you'll be at St Pancras before 13:00" - because my 4-car train came in at the far end of a busy platform, with two trains coming in and another one leaving leaving a big queue for the barriers, my pass not working the gate, people ambling up the ramp to the concourse, it was 13:05 before I actually got to the front of Euston, let alone St Pancras!

 

[najaB]

Not valid perhaps (presumably she should have used an NRE itinerary), but "way too short"?

Yes. The TfL journey planner arrival time would be the front door time. The OP's daughter would still have to make their way from the entrance, through the concourse and onto the right platform with a couple of minutes to spare.

As far as connection times are concerned she needed to arrive by 16:45.

 

[faddy]

Definitely too short at that time of day, considering how busy the platform could be, two or three minutes to get off the platform if you're at the wrong end. Another three or four minutes to get to the bottom of the main escalators... and there are escalator works at Euston going on, so it could be another minute or two queueing for the one working up escalator. 'Generously' giving two minutes to get through the Underground gates, then up to the concourse via the lift/stairs/escalator etc., that gives... two minutes to find what platform your train goes from, get across a crowded Euston concourse, get down the ramp, get your ticket inspected and make it to the train in the right coach (hope you didn't book the quiet coach!) before the platform gates close and boarding finishes 2 minutes prior to departure.

One time I did the reverse with a walk to St Pancras, I told someone what time I was arriving at Euston (for example, 12:50) and they replied "Oh, so you'll be at St Pancras before 13:00" - because my 4-car train came in at the far end of a busy platform, with two trains coming in and another one leaving leaving a big queue for the barriers, my pass not working the gate, people ambling up the ramp to the concourse, it was 13:05 before I actually got to the front of Euston, let alone St Pancras!

Virgin departure was 17:07 so the TfL timings would give 13 minutes before the barrier closed.

 

[najaB]

Virgin departure was 17:07 so the TfL timings would give 13 minutes before the barrier closed.

Still not enough. It's a 15 minute minimum connection time at Euston.

 

[faddy]

Yes. The TfL journey planner arrival time would be the front door time.

Is that time of arrival on the Underground platform? Or at the top of the escalators (mainline concourse)?

 

[najaB]

Is that time of arrival on the Underground platform? Or at the top of the escalators (mainline concourse)?

I honestly don't know and leave it to the experts to answer. What I would say is that if that distinction makes a difference, then you're cutting it too fine.

 

[causton]

I honestly don't know and leave it to the experts to answer. What I would say is that if that distinction makes a difference, then you're cutting it too fine.

I am in no way an expert, but I have done a couple of tests using the TfL journey planner, and the First and Last Tube/north end of the Met timetable, and it seems that the times are platform to platform, where the times of the journey planner match up with the times of the timetable.

 

[faddy]

It's a 15 minute minimum connection time at Euston.

Is that an official transfer time prescribed by National Rail? If so where would I find it online?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've just looked up the Blackheath to Liverpool journey (for next Saturday) on NRE. Where TfL gives the 16:15 Blackheath -> Charing Cross, NRE gives the 16:04 Blackheath -> Victoria. Both however give a tube journey arriving Euston at 16:52.

I'm wondering whether the NRE route planner tries to avoid changes of train during the Underground journey? Admittedly based on a sample of only one journey, TfL's Blackheath -> Euston route involves a change at Green Park, whereas NRE's route takes longer but goes direct Victoria -> Euston via Victoria Line.

 

[najaB]

Is that an official transfer time prescribed by National Rail? If so where would I find it online?

It's in the data used by journey planners, you can find it here: http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=EUS&show=info&date=20161113

 

[clagmonster]

You should allow the following connection times (Southern Region terminal interchange time + Underground journey time + Euston interchange time):
Victoria 15 + 9 + 15 = 39 minutes
London Bridge 10 + 23 + 15 = 48 minutes
Charing Cross 10 + 18 + 15 = 43 minutes
Cannon St 10 + 29 + 15 = 54 minutes