advance fares on Virgin trains

[keiran]

Hi

I had an unsettling experience and wondered if the RailUK community could advise

I travelled from Manchester to Euston with Virgin. I had bought advance tickets from the Virgin website and collected the tickets on an earlier date from the self service machines

Although I have used advance tickets before, and know that you should present the ticket and reservation coupon for inspection, due to an unaccountable lapse of thinking, I ended up with only the reservation coupon on the train, having kept the ticket itself at home, erroneously thinking it was the visa receipt. I still have these in my possession.

The ticket inspector said I was travelling without the right ticket. I described what had happened and suggested that one could check that I had indeed bought the right ticket by going back to the virgin website. Clearly there was no intention of avoiding the fare (which HAD been paid).

He told me that I would have to pay the penalty fare ( about £200), or that if I refused, he would telephone the Police and I would be picked up at Euston, having to pay up then. I was not asked for my name and address

I decided that I would refuse to pay the penalty and try to convince the Police of the circumstances

Obviously I was apprehensive throughout the rest of my journey, but at Euston I got off, didn't see any Police waiting, and exited the station (realising I was lucky that there are no exit barriers in operation)

So:-
1) Was the inspector right in his 2 options?
2) Was I perhaps fortunate that he didn't phone through to the Police?
3) Would the Police take a role in these matters as suggested?
4) Is it still possible for any party to contact me by mail, etc to pursue matters?
5) Is it true that Virgin don't have penalty fares ( I read this elsewhere), and if so does it mean they have no sanctions against fare dodgers?

Thanks in advance (no pun) for thoughts

 

[rail-britain]

3) Would the Police take a role in these matters as suggested?
4) Is it still possible for any party to contact me by mail, etc to pursue matters?

It is possible the Train Manager has recorded the seat reservation number and train used
He can then report this and Virgin Trains can then decide what action to take
Equally, BTP may not have been able to attend at Euston

It is therefore possible for Virgin Trains to still write to you

Personally, keep the ticket, reservation, and receipt for 6 months
No further action should be necessary

A penalty fare would not apply (as far as I am aware), all that can be requested is the full single fare for the journey
However, the Train Manager has probably used common sense, asked you to pay this fare which you were unable to do, as well as accepting your explanation and presenting the reservation

 

[ainsworth74]

So:-
1) Was the inspector right in his 2 options?

There is no Penalty Fare scheme for passengers traveling from Piccadilly so he can ask you to pay there and then, issue an Unpaid Fare Notice or call the police.

2) Was I perhaps fortunate that he didn't phone through to the Police?
3) Would the Police take a role in these matters as suggested?

Yes and Yes. (But they may have been unable to attend).

4) Is it still possible for any party to contact me by mail, etc to pursue matters?

See rail-britain's above post.

5) Is it true that Virgin don't have penalty fares ( I read this elsewhere), and if so does it mean they have no sanctions against fare dodgers?

Not from Piccadilly, but they may from other stations. Yes then can issue UFN's (which can lead to court cases if they remain un-paid).

 

[route:oxford]

I wouldn't dispute anything that has been posted so far...

But, thinking about the potential court action...

If the traveller didn't provide details at the time, the TOC would be able to identify him by cross-referencing the seat number with the credit card sale.

Therefore the TOC would be taking action against a passenger for travelling without a ticket using the details that prove he bought a ticket.

It would interesting to see how a magistrate interprets that.

 

[OwlMan]

The offence is "not showing a ticket" not "not having bought one"

From NRCOC
22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand
over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of
personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated
as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will
apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable
to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

24. Lost, stolen or mislaid tickets
A ticket is your evidence of your right to make a rail journey and it is your
responsibility to keep it safe. If you lose or mislay a ticket or a Smartcard or it is stolen, it
will not be replaced nor will any of the cost be refunded. However, Train Companies will
replace certain Season Tickets in the circumstances set out in Condition 34.

 

[ukrob]

Therefore the TOC would be taking action against a passenger for travelling without a ticket using the details that prove he bought a ticket.

It would interesting to see how a magistrate interprets that.

Indeed - Virgin won't waste there time with it because they know that will happen. They would also need some proof that it was the OP, without a ticket, who was sitting in the seat, and not a random person sitting in a seat that wasn't theirs. For all the train Manager knows, unless he scrutinised and remembered every single ticket on the train, that you actually had your ticket with you but decided to sit in an unreserved seat.

 

[route:oxford]

The offence is "not showing a ticket" not "not having bought one"

I can't argue with the printed word of a legal document.

But...

With local magistrates courts under pressure from a significant workload, I'm not convinced of the merits of a large firm taking up court time by pushing forward with a vanity case...

Perhaps that's why BTP didn't bother to turn up...

"The gentleman has got the seat reservation document with an imprinted ticket on departure code?"

"Yes"

"There's no-one hanging around claiming that their reserved seat has been taken"

"No"

"Ok, we'll deal with that for you."

*bins notes, and makes cup of tea*

 

[keiran]

Thanks for comments. I'm the original poster.

I have now examined my reservation coupon very carefully and notice that in the bottom right corner it actually prints my name!! (as Mr initial surname). I could, of course, have shown the ticket inspector something from my wallet to prove I was that person.

I also notice that the words "retain for inspection" are printed on the reservation coupon, but not on the ticket ( although I accept that both documents say "valid only with" the other document)

I can't see why they make such a fuss about having both parts

Or why they can't have all the information on ONE ticket so that such problems are forever entirely avoided for all parties

Can someone high up in railways take this up?

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't pursue it.

The requirement to hold a ticket and a reservation is fairly basic, I doubt you'll get that changed.

You were lucky.

The guard acted in a strange way though, there is no penalty fare (did he really say that?), and he should have issued a UPFN (unpaid fare notice). I think that his actions in being overly draconian meant that he lost credibility, and the BTP probably sensibly realised that it wasn't the most pressing of issues.

I agree there was no intent to avoid paying the fare, as you did pay it, that means it would be incredibly difficult for Virgin to be able to prosecute you for fare evasion and I don't think they'd try it.

5) Is it true that Virgin don't have penalty fares ( I read this elsewhere), and if so does it mean they have no sanctions against fare dodgers?

What leads you to think that a penalty fare is a sanction against fare dodgers?

I'm amazed at how many people think that (and I believe it is evidence that PFs are inappropriate, ineffective, and used as a way to let off actual evaders while penalising genuine passengers).

 

[keiran]

Thanks Yorkie

Thinking about it, the guard never used the words "penalty fare" and probably meant simply the full price single fare for that first class journey

Also, he was the actual train manager, not a guard or ticket inspector(!)

Well at least I'll never have that lapse of concentration again!

 

[ainsworth74]

Also, he was the actual train manager, not a guard or ticket inspector(!)

Same thing these days, some TOC's have changed the name of a Guard to Train Manager. Then again others have done away with Guards altogether on some routes

 

[cyclebytrain]

If you want to only have a single "ticket" for advances, try the print at home option.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I also notice that the words "retain for inspection" are printed on the reservation coupon, but not on the ticket ( although I accept that both documents say "valid only with" the other document)

I can't see why they make such a fuss about having both parts....

Advance tickets are only valid on the booked services (except as noted in the conditions of the ticket), thus it is important that the guard/TM can confirm you are on the correct train. For this they need to see all the appropriate 'coupons'.

....Or why they can't have all the information on ONE ticket so that such problems are forever entirely avoided for all parties

Can someone high up in railways take this up?

I'm not high up in the railway, but the answer almost certain is....

"All Train Operating Companies have, in recent years, invested in new ticket machines for the current style of ticket. Unfortunately, at this time, the costs associated with changing these systems is prohibitive."

In plain English....."All of the change would cost money that no-one is willing to spend because the current machines are 'good for the job they need to do' ".

 

[142094]

I can't see why they make such a fuss about having both parts

Or why they can't have all the information on ONE ticket so that such problems are forever entirely avoided for all parties

Can someone high up in railways take this up?

Most simply there is not enough room on one ticket. Now the old style airline types had acres of space, but of course are not compatible with the barriers.

 

[wintonian]

In my experience they often staple the 2 parts together as is sometimes done with excess tickets as well.

 

[Lampshade]

I wouldn't pursue it, as mentioned above.

He should have issued an Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN), you would then just have sent the ticket in with it and that would be the end of the matter. As it stands this did not happen and there were no exit barriers at Euston.

 

[mickey]

If the traveller didn't provide details at the time, the TOC would be able to identify him by cross-referencing the seat number with the credit card sale.
Therefore the TOC would be taking action against a passenger for travelling without a ticket using the details that prove he bought a ticket.
It would interesting to see how a magistrate interprets that.

There's no rule that says you have to use yourself any ticket you buy. Therefore even if the TM did record the reservation number to chase it up later they would have to prove it was actually you on the train, and personally I can't see them bothering to sift through the CCTV footage for use in court. The TM could have chased it up further on the train with a UFN but didn't, so I'd be surprised if anything happened. Plus there's nothing to stop you later claiming you'd dropped it on the floor and only found it after he came round...

Or why they can't have all the information on ONE ticket so that such problems are forever entirely avoided for all parties

In plain English....."All of the change would cost money that no-one is willing to spend because the current machines are 'good for the job they need to do' ".

They did do this for a while - the big white 'boarding pass'-style tickets. Passengers hated them as they were too big and staff hated them because they don't go through barriers (despite being fully magnetised!). They were also fully interchangeable with the identical ones issued by Eurostar and SNCF - I believe the (never actually realised) aim was to have one ticket to cover UK domestic, E* and SNCF journeys. Even now E* issues three tickets for a through journey.

 

[yorksrob]

Passengers hated them as they were too big.

True in my case. I never used to like those because they wouldn't fit in my ticket wallet.

 

[Greenback]

They were far too big! The credit card sized ones will go into my shirt pocket, my trouser pocket or my wallet! The airline sized ones had to go into a bag or my inside jacket pocket.

 

[wibble]

With the airline sized ATB tickets, you might still need to carry additional credit-card sized tickets to operate London Underground ticket gates!

 

[Greenback]

That was yet another pain with them!

 

[keiran]

Thanks for input, all

I don't know if I now feel aggrieved!!

The train manager had the option, I now understand, of issuing an unpaid fare notice in this situation. This would have "caught" me if I had been evading/lying, or allowed me to send in my ticket later, with the case closed to everyone's satisfaction.

Instead he chose to demand the full single first class fare (£200) and to threaten me with the Police

From his point of view, this was great:-
1) He got to assert himself/bully/intimidate/play up in the train carriage
2) Virgin trains may well have got £200 (?and possibly a commission for the guard?? - I don't know if this is how it works) for a seat that I had already paid for, if I had been scared off by the Police threat
3) He didn't have to do the work of filling in the UPFN correctly, asking for my details, checking my address, etc
4) Even in the events that he did not actually call the Police through laziness or through knowing that they would take no action, or even not attend, it would leave me fretful throughout the entire journey, worried about meeting the Police and being arrested/prosecuted.

Train guards are known for being little Hitlers, but in this case there appear to be streaks of laziness and sadism in this individual.

No point complaining though I'm sure.

 

[mickey]

They were far too big! The credit card sized ones will go into my shirt pocket, my trouser pocket or my wallet! The airline sized ones had to go into a bag or my inside jacket pocket.

I tend to use them as bookmarks. I spend a fair bit of time in France so I still get quite a lot of them. Although I've noticed a lot of the newer TER machines (the red ones that only take cards not cash if anyone's interested) have started issuing smaller ones which seem to go down very well - but you have to be on a train with no reservations to be allowed to have one!

OP, I know it's hard to believe but you were lucky no further action was or is likely to be taken and you should just put it behind you as a nasty experience. Had you had the misfortune to be a young person I'm almost certain he'd have carried out his threats, such is the attitude of society today towards its younger members.

 

[tony_mac]

Train guards are known for being little Hitlers, but in this case there appear to be streaks of laziness and sadism in this individual.

No point complaining though I'm sure.

That's just unpleasant!

You were travelling without a valid ticket, and you would have been liable to pay the unpaid fare notice or face a possible prosecution.

They may have let it go if you had proved you had bought a ticket, but they would have been under no legal obligation to do so.

The guard had every right to insist on you buying a ticket, and in calling the police when you refused to do so. He was just doing his job properly.

 

[Greenback]

With respect, keiran, calling the guard lazy and sadistic is just as wrong as being labelled as a serial fare evader when you have fortgotten a ticket. As has been pointed out, he was doing his job correctly as per the instructions of his employers.

I have forgotten or lost my ticket in the past, and I accepted that I needed to buy another one. This led to a very expensive journey wen I lost an Advance ticket and had to buy a full fare single. But it was no one;s fault but my own, so I didn't blame the train staff when i had to cough up.

Learn a lesson from this. Always check you have your pre bought ticket before you board a train. The vast majority of guards are professional people who do the best they can under difficult circumstances. It's been many years since I encountered one that could in any way be described as a little Hitler, which in itself is a very offensive term to throw around.

 

[scrapy]

A guard should firstly ask for a ticket/authority to travel. Then ask for payment if this is not produced. If neither are shown/paid an offence may have been committed then the guard has several options. The guard had no obligation to issue an UPFN. A UPFN is simply one option a guard can use. It maybe that he requested BTP due to the attitude of the OP, or simply to check the identity of the OP, we have only one side to this story we don't know if the OP was being abusive to the guard to his face as he seems happy to come on this forum and slag him off behind his back.

 

[MKB]

Most simply there is not enough room on one ticket. QUOTE]

This is something that has exercised my mind on some of my more boring train journeys when I have stared down at the ticket. I am convinced that there is enough space on the existing ticket, provided that you don't have more than three legs to each direction of travel.

The current layout of the data on the ticket is not particularly logical in any case and is ripe for an overhaul. Make greater use of the smaller font that is already used for some of the data, and re-structuring the existing details -- and, yes, I'm well aware there are some spaces that have to be kept for data items that appear only occasionally -- I think I could much improve the ticket design.

 

[Geezertronic]

On the whole, I have found the VT Train Managers to be more than pleasant enough (the Males more so than the Females). I was having a chat with a TM about fare evasion as he caught someone hiding in the toilet and he told me the places where TMs have found people hiding on the 390s to avoid paying

 

[mickey]

Make greater use of the smaller font that is already used for some of the data

You're kidding, right? It's hard enough to read as it is, and making it smaller would be insane. Plus there's also the disability and anti-ageist rights legislation (e.g. for the partially sighted) to think about.

And how would it affect accuracy of ticket checking staff? The majority of the time they give it only a passing glance anyway, and this would make it much harder for them and no doubt lead to longer queues at ticket barriers.

 

[MKB]

It's hard enough to read as it is, and making it smaller would be insane. Plus there's also the disability and anti-ageist rights legislation (e.g. for the partially sighted) to think about.

Whatever arrangements are currently in place for blind and partially sighted people to know what their ticket says would continue.

The routeing details on the ticket are already in the smaller font size, and that is presumbaly deemed to be compliant with current legislation, being an important part of the ticket information. With my contact lenses in, I struggle with small close-up type, yet I have no problem reading train tickets. The font size is not actually that small.