Admin fee or Penalty charge??

[PG123]

Hi All,

Thanks in advance for any advice. I got caught on West midlands Train with a partial ticket for my journey, I have co-operated fully and am getting the usual scare tactics of them going through my trainline history and bumping up a large fine of accusations of travelling without a railcard. Ive managed to get my details for my past railcards which shows all the railcard incidents aren't valid (over £700s worth they tried to charge me ). Anyway, I'm happy to pay the fines for what I evaded......(its only fair), however I note that have charged me with a £200 admin fee to which I have two points

- A friend of mine had a similar situation and was only charged £175, so why the difference and can I reasonably argue this down? (this fee also started as £150 first but they've now bumped it up to £200, they originally were emailing me but addressed the mails to the wrong name, so I thought it was phishing therefore didn't open them, all the while I had been contacting their customer service to get an update from them)

- Also I note that on the WM travel page it says this (see below)

"To travel with us, you need a valid train ticket for your entire journey before you board, otherwise, you may need to pay a Penalty Fare.

By evading fares, it is not only unfair on paying customers, but it also stops funds being invested in improving the railway network, passenger journeys, and the service we provide.

To help eliminate fare evasion, we, and other rail operators, have a Penalty Fare Scheme in place, which means you could pay a penalty if you:

• Travel without a valid ticket
• Can’t show an appropriate Railcard for a discounted ticket
• Travel in First Class with a Standard Class ticket
• Are travelling on a child ticket, but are 16 or over
• Travel beyond the destination on your ticket (Technically I've been caught for short fare rail evasion)

How much is a Penalty Fare?​

A Penalty Fare is £100, plus the price of the full single fare applicable to the intended destination on that train. If the fare is paid within 21 days, the fare will be reduced to £50, plus the price of the full single fare applicable."


I'm interested to get your thoughts on me arguing that I should pay the penalty fine of £100 (or £50 within 21 days) or asking them for a breakdown of their admin time spent/fees calculated.

Thanks
P

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi All,

Thanks in advance for any advice. I got caught on West midlands Train with a partial ticket for my journey, I have co-operated fully and am getting the usual scare tactics of them going through my trainline history and bumping up a large fine of accusations of travelling without a railcard. Ive managed to get my details for my past railcards which shows all the railcard incidents aren't valid (over £700s worth they tried to charge me ). Anyway, I'm happy to pay the fines for what I evaded......(its only fair), however I note that have charged me with a £200 admin fee to which I have two points

- A friend of mine had a similar situation and was only charged £175, so why the difference and can I reasonably argue this down? (this fee also started as £150 first but they've now bumped it up to £200, they originally were emailing me but addressed the mails to the wrong name, so I thought it was phishing therefore didn't open them, all the while I had been contacting their customer service to get an update from them)

- Also I note that on the WM travel page it says this (see below)

"To travel with us, you need a valid train ticket for your entire journey before you board, otherwise, you may need to pay a Penalty Fare.

By evading fares, it is not only unfair on paying customers, but it also stops funds being invested in improving the railway network, passenger journeys, and the service we provide.

To help eliminate fare evasion, we, and other rail operators, have a Penalty Fare Scheme in place, which means you could pay a penalty if you:

• Travel without a valid ticket
• Can’t show an appropriate Railcard for a discounted ticket
• Travel in First Class with a Standard Class ticket
• Are travelling on a child ticket, but are 16 or over
• Travel beyond the destination on your ticket (Technically I've been caught for short fare rail evasion)

How much is a Penalty Fare?​

A Penalty Fare is £100, plus the price of the full single fare applicable to the intended destination on that train. If the fare is paid within 21 days, the fare will be reduced to £50, plus the price of the full single fare applicable."


I'm interested to get your thoughts on me arguing that I should pay the penalty fine of £100 (or £50 within 21 days) or asking them for a breakdown of their admin time spent/fees calculated.

Thanks
P

By all means ask them, they might be prepared to spend more admin time on that and charge you yet more for the extra admin involved, or they can withdraw their offer and see you in court, where you will lose by the sound of it - and pay more in court fines and costs etc (no extra charge for the criminal record that comes with the court sentence however).

It's entirely logical to me that cases that involve greater admin might be charged more than cases that require less.

There is no obligation to offer you a Penalty Fare, and suspected persistent evaders are unlikely to be offered them so it would seem improbable that they would agree to your idea of paying £100 with a discount if paid promptly.

My advice would be to pay what they are asking and stop evading your fares.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Legally you must possess a valid ticket to travel before you board the train (there are a handful of exceptions but they aren't going to be relevant in your case). If you don't possess a valid ticket then you will either:

- be sold a full priced Anytime ticket
- be issued with a Penalty Fare
- reported for prosecution

Penalty Fares are intended for 'honest mistakes'. They are not intended to be issued to someone who has deliberately evaded their fares. They can only be issued by authorised members of staff and they cannot be issued retrospectively.

It sounds as though you've been evading your fares on more than one occasion, the train company has offered you an out of court settlement which they do not have to do. There is a danger that if you start messing them around they will withdraw it and send the case to the Magistrates Court.

The admin fee is supposed to reflect the cost of the train company investigating the case. Clearly this is subjective but a fee of £200 suggests there was more work involved in your case. I suspect this was due to them having to research your online ticket purchasing history with Trainline over a longer period of time.

 

[furlong]

Penalty Fares are intended for 'honest mistakes'. They are not intended to be issued to someone who has deliberately evaded their fares.

A Penalty Fare IS intended to be issued to a person who has been caught deliberately evading ONE fare. As it can't be issued retrospectively its use is inappropriate when someone is caught out evading MULTIPLE fares. That is a good thing for the OP, because if they could issue them retrospectively, they'd be paying an extra £50/£100 penalty for EVERY OCCASION, which I presume would add up to considerably more?

How many fares are they asking for in the end?

The extra amount for "admin" is NOT a penalty - it is simply the train company recovering their costs and the amount requested is line with what we would expect them to ask for in the circumstances you describe. If they prosecuted you, they would incur further costs on top of this so would ask the court to award them an even higher figure. You can of course request a breakdown of the amount. My only thought is: If they have charged you for investigating your railcard which was always valid, did they have any reasonable grounds for making that investigation and charging you for doing so, or if there was no such ground and it was unnecessary should they be absorbing the cost of that part of the investigation themselves?

 

[John R]

It appears that what you have been offered is an out of court settlement (not a penalty fare), to avoid them prosecuting you. They can withdraw that at any time and go ahead with the prosecution.

Instead of arguing the toss over £25 you are highly advised to bite their hand off and accept it, as from what you have said you would be convicted in court, incur much greater cost and walk away with a conviction. Your choice!

 

[CarrotPie]

A Penalty Fare IS intended to be issued to a person who has been caught deliberately evading ONE fare. As it can't be issued retrospectively its use is inappropriate when someone is caught out evading MULTIPLE fares. That is a good thing for the OP, because if they could issue them retrospectively, they'd be paying an extra £50/£100 penalty for EVERY OCCASION, which I presume would add up to considerably more?

I doubt it. Otherwise people could travel without a ticket all the time and the penalties would add up to less than the price of the tickets evaded!

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi All,

Thanks in advance for any advice. I got caught on West midlands Train with a partial ticket for my journey, I have co-operated fully and am getting the usual scare tactics of them going through my trainline history and bumping up a large fine of accusations of travelling without a railcard. Ive managed to get my details for my past railcards which shows all the railcard incidents aren't valid (over £700s worth they tried to charge me ). Anyway, I'm happy to pay the fines for what I evaded......(its only fair), however I note that have charged me with a £200 admin fee to which I have two points

(this fee also started as £150 first but they've now bumped it up to £200, they originally were emailing me but addressed the mails to the wrong name, so I thought it was phishing therefore didn't open them, all the while I had been contacting their customer service to get an update from them)

You thought emails from West Midlands Trains specifically referencing the incident where you got caught fare evading - but which had the incorrect name - were a phishing scam?

Come on.

 

[fandroid]

I doubt it. Otherwise people could travel without a ticket all the time and the penalties would add up to less than the price of the tickets evaded!

Except the fare evaded is always added on top of the penalty element. @furlong is right

 

[CarrotPie]

Except the fare evaded is always added on top of the penalty element. @furlong is right

But if you get caught once a month and all you have to do is pay a hundred quid, as opposed to a few grand for an annual season, it'd be worth it. Thus it would not, I presume,

add up to considerably more

!

 

[ikcdab]

But if you get caught once a month and all you have to do is pay a hundred quid, as opposed to a few grand for an annual season, it'd be worth it. Thus it would not, I presume,

!

No because serial offenders get a significantly more severe penalty and a criminal conviction.

 

[John R]

But if you get caught once a month and all you have to do is pay a hundred quid, as opposed to a few grand for an annual season, it'd be worth it. Thus it would not, I presume,

!

Except that you will very soon find that you are not offered a penalty fare, but referred for prosecution.

 

[CarrotPie]

No because serial offenders get a significantly more severe penalty and a criminal conviction.

Except that you will very soon find that you are not offered a penalty fare, but referred for prosecution.

Exactly, which is my point.

 

[furlong]

To clarify, my comparison was with a situation where a Penalty Fare could be issued retrospectively, meaning if they worked out someone had been cheating for 5 days a week for 4 weeks, they could impose a 5 x 4 x £50 = £1000 penalty on top of the single fares due, and you'd quickly reach a situation where retrospective PFs could exceed the fines courts would impose.