Additional Southeastern High Speed services

[Trainguy34]

Regarding platform capacity at St Pancras, what is the quickest turnaround time that could be achieved? I've seen some trains are 10 minutes, others are 13 minutes, but could these be speeded up to increase capacity? Or does the departure time rely on track availability between Eurostar services, such that turnaround times could not be improved?

One option could be to be able to turn them round instantly, very much like trains arriving at intermediate stations. That would rely on new crews being ready to jump on. Any cleaning duties would have to be completed at destinations, unless you have cleaning staff jumping on at St Pancras, and leaving at Ebbsfleet.

Timetable Planning Rules say 9 mins minimum for domestic, 11 if going Passenger -> ECS.

More detailed guidelines below.

 

[Cach17]

Or keep the Victoria service and add the HS1 service on top to give 2tph Faversham-Dover, with the HS service calling only at Canterbury East.

You've read my mind!

The only downside is that platforms lengths on the Dover branch of the CML (including Cant. East and two of the three platforms at Dover itself) are restricted to 8-car trains, but then again nearly all of the FAV terminators are 6 cars anyway, with one extra unit needed if the Dover extension happened.

 

[MotCO]

Timetable Planning Rules say 9 mins minimum for domestic, 11 if going Passenger -> ECS.

Is that for passenger connection times, or for train turnaround times?

 

[Stephen42]

Is that for passenger connection times, or for train turnaround times?

Train turnaround time. 9 minutes for a 12-car class 395 or 6 for a single unit (the 2 extra minutes note isn't flagged against that fleet). There isn't anything in principle preventing a lower figure being agreed for stepping back or two drivers onboard as done for Bromley North.

There would still need to be paths found that are compatible with the international services. The design was done with the current peak service levels in mind.

 

[Jaydubya]

• Rivalry: The number 7 bus serves the heart of East Barming and Farliegh area, and Wateringbury, with a half-hourly service to Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells, along with Maidstone (however, I find that bus rather slow tbh). As for the Paddock Wood part of the equation, Maidstone East now has a Charing X service of its own, and, with the Maidstone East line now being half-hourly back to Ashford International again, timing the marshlink connection right provides a decent route down to Hastings. So apart from needing a train out to Redhill or Gatwick, the need to go South on the Medway Valley Line has dwindled in recent years.

The Number 7 bus has recently been improved to every 20 minutes for most of the working day as part of a wider plan to provide a bus every 10 minutes between Tunbridge Wells, Southborough and Tonbridge.

The need to change twice on the train between Tunbridge Wells and Maidstone doesn’t make it that appealing

 

[squingo44]

Once again, what problem is this solution supposed to solve?

The housing crisis. Creating new commuter capacity in Kent promotes housebuilding on stations around the lines and job growth around St Pancras.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network Rail have said they can find one additional path on the current peak-hour timetable, but what would be required to find more? A new HSSE fleet capable of full speed on the HS1 lines? Lowering headways? There are currently 7 HSSE services per hour terminating at St Pancras in the morning peak, along with 2-3 international services. Couldn't this ultimately be a lot higher?

What would be needed to achieve 2½ minute headways? Resignalling?

Rebuilding the London tunnels to meet the evacuation requirements of having a train ‘trapped’ in the middle. AIUI there are tunnel controls which only permit a train to enter one end of each tunnel if the preceeding train is in the last block section and has a proceed signal out. It is quite a regular thing to wait to enter the first tunnel on a down SEHS service whilst a preceeding Eurostar is clearign the tunnel at Stratford.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think there are any stop signals in the tunnel between Stratford and Dagenham? Presumably if trains were to become more frequent on HS1, then at least one stop signal would have to be installed to increase capacity between Ebbsfleet and Stratford?

There’s no signals at all (lots of marker noards though)

How many HS1 passengers get to St Pancras then use the Underground to the East? (Liv St etc)

Not many. But there’s quite a lot off at Stratford Int heading for Liv St, 5 minute walk to Stratford regional, then a Liz Line.

 

[NCT]

Services originating at Maidstone West on the Medway Valley line occupy capacity on the North Kent Line between Strood and Ebbsfleet International, which is a fairly congested section of track.

This section isn't busy.

A direct connection between the Medway Valley Line and HS1 would speed up journey times

And miss out the actual traffic generators of Gravesend and Strood.

[/QUOTE]and would allow Maidstone West services to be extended back as far as Paddock Wood[/QUOTE]

The natural route into London for East Farleigh - Paddock Wood is via Staplehurst.

Network Rail have said they can find one additional path on the current peak-hour timetable, but what would be required to find more? A new HSSE fleet capable of full speed on the HS1 lines? Lowering headways? There are currently 7 HSSE services per hour terminating at St Pancras in the morning peak, along with 2-3 international services. Couldn't this ultimately be a lot higher?

Currently there is only the one high-peak hour where a 7tph domestic timetable operators (4 Ashford, 2 Kent Coast, 1 Maidstone), and not all paths are full length trains. There's still substantial capacity headroom.

 

[izvor]

The need to change twice on the train between Tunbridge Wells and Maidstone doesn’t make it that appealing

True. The #7 bus is quite competitive on journey time as well as frequency - and it goes to the town centre at Maidstone.

I'm not sure if the 2tph to Paddock Wood was justified, especially since Tonbridge depot (and Ashford?) still crew some services. Might have been better to keep it hourly to Tonbridge and extend it to Redhill (for Gatwick), taking over the cinderella Southern service which has long layovers. Bit off-topic, sorry.

The natural route into London for East Farleigh - Paddock Wood is via Staplehurst.

Not sure I understand this, did you mean Tonbridge? Hardly a major flow anyway.

 

[brad465]

How easily could 3tph between Ashford and St Pancras be done off peak? 4tph exists during peak flows, particularly with 2 Margate services skipping Ebbsfleet, so given the high passenger flow from Ashford demand for another service must exist, possibly terminating at Canterbury West (which also has a high flow to St Pancras and caters for a strong Ashford-Canterbury flow).

 

[squingo44]

And miss out the actual traffic generators of Gravesend and Strood.

The line would become a traffic generator in its own right, inducing demand through inducing housebuilding.

The natural route into London for East Farleigh - Paddock Wood is via Staplehurst.

The natural route based on the current network. There's no reason that needs to stay the case.

 

[brad465]

Beyond the widely discusses expansion of HSSE commuter services to Hastings over an upgraded Marshlink Line, are there any other opportunities to expand the Southeastern High Speed network?

Services originating at Maidstone West on the Medway Valley line occupy capacity on the North Kent Line between Strood and Ebbsfleet International, which is a fairly congested section of track. A direct connection between the Medway Valley Line and HS1 would speed up journey times, and would allow Maidstone West services to be extended back as far as Paddock Wood, providing greater connectivity and more space for growth in the London commuter belt of Kent. This chord could split off the Medway Valley Line north of Halling, cross over the Chatham Main Line - with a new station to serve Cuxton on the chord, potentially serving as a an interchange station with the Chatham Main Line, before joining HS1 at a grade-separated junction on the land of the Cobham Park Golf Club. This would also probably provide the impetus to make Maidstone Barracks an interchange station, adding platforms on the Kent Downs Line.

This is insane.

Another idea would be to build a Maidstone Parkway station on HS1 next to the M20, which could connect to the Kent Downs line at Bearsted and serve the stations down to Charing. It might even serve to connect the Medway Valley line to this station at some west-facing bay platforms, so that passengers could interchange with HS1 services - if only this addition were added.

This however I think is more plausible, albeit I'm not sure about the interchange aspect with the Kent Downs Line - most passengers would either drive to the parkway station direct, or go to Ashford and get onto HS1 from there, and in any case Hollingbourne-Charing inclusive is not a busy set of stations.