Additional Class 777/1s being considered?

[507021]

Moved to this section as requested.

I was recently informed by a friend who works for Merseyrail the Liverpool City Region is considering the purchase of long range batteries for three of the Polish-built units (047, 051 and 053) which have yet to be transferred to the UK. As I said in my original post on the subject, this is only being considered at the moment and there's no timescale on when a decision could be made. The reason for additional /1s being considered is not yet known, although at this stage, I'd like to think it would be to create additional resilience for Headbolt Lane services while the fleet settles down. Until reliability of the 777s improves and becomes consistent over a long period, I think it would be extremely unwise to consider further extensions of any length to the Merseyrail network.

 

[danbarjon]

I think they should use some and run some 777s towards Widnes and Warrington.

 

[WAO]

A more flexible fleet could be useful, especially for some trial running beyond the system's boundaries. Widnes, yes and perhaps even Shotton?, but not between Headbolt Lane (Low Level) and Headbolt Lane (High Level) for many years.

HX&NY

WAO

 

[Northerngirl]

I thought the long term plan always was to put batteries in the whole fleet once they are more reliable

 

[507021]

If it is because another network extension is being considered, then I'd say it's almost certainly Helsby. That said, I'm not sure if ten 777/1s would be sufficient for Helsby and Headbolt Lane with a decent number of spare units as cover.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==

I thought the long term plan always was to put batteries in the whole fleet once they are more reliable

Yes, that is the eventual plan.

 

[Jack Hay]

If it is because another network extension is being considered, then I'd say it's almost certainly Helsby. That said, I'm not sure if ten 777/1s would be sufficient for Helsby and Headbolt Lane with a decent number of spare units as cover.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2023 ==



Yes, that is the eventual plan.

Extension to Helsby is what Cheshire West & Chester Council are pushing for, but they are not part of Liverpool City Region. The City Region will effectively make the decision, and their top priority for battery extension is to go east from Hunts Cross, because the next few stations are in the City Region.

 

[HSTEd]

Extension to Helsby is what Cheshire West & Chester Council are pushing for, but they are not part of Liverpool City Region. The City Region will effectively make the decision, and their top priority for battery extension is to go east from Hunts Cross, because the next few stations are in the City Region.

There may always be a deal to be made with the UK and Welsh Governments for taking on the line to Helsby if it allows operational cuts/savings for Northern and TfW.

 

[Jack Hay]

There may always be a deal to be made with the UK and Welsh Governments for taking on the line to Helsby if it allows operational cuts/savings for Northern and TfW.

The savings for Northern are trivial (two return workings per day, usually cancelled) and TfW and the Welsh govt aren't involved with Merseyrail extension to Helsby.

 

[HSTEd]

The savings for Northern are trivial (two return workings per day, usually cancelled) and TfW and the Welsh govt aren't involved with Merseyrail extension to Helsby.

TfW would likely be able to shed the Chester-Liverpool Lime Street workings pretty much in their entirety if Helsby can easily be reached via Merseyrail.

That would add up pretty quickly given the dire straits of Welsh public sector finances, they might be willing to pay Merseyrail some portion of the current operating expenses to make it happen.

 

[8A Rail]

I think they should use some and run some 777s towards Widnes and Warrington.

Better still take over some TPEx trains to the North east instead, and let you have the pleasure of travelling on them along with your Class 555's!

 

[507021]

Extension to Helsby is what Cheshire West & Chester Council are pushing for, but they are not part of Liverpool City Region. The City Region will effectively make the decision, and their top priority for battery extension is to go east from Hunts Cross, because the next few stations are in the City Region.

Cost is going to come above priorities where Merseyrail extensions are concerned, and Helsby is by far the cheapest on the table. Also, I don't see where else Merseyrail are going to reach with ten 777/1s in a fleet of 53 units, certainly not Widnes.

 

[Jack Hay]

Cost is going to come above priorities where Merseyrail extensions are concerned, and Helsby is by far the cheapest on the table. Also, I don't see where else Merseyrail are going to reach with ten 777/1s in a fleet of 53 units, certainly not Widnes.

It would certainly be a cheap extension, I agree. I don't think there would be any track or signalling changes needed at all. There would be a need to raise platform heights for the level access to the 777s, and I dare say this would raise issues over the lack of step-free access to these stations. However, that's the same for any candidates for extensions.

 

[Bertie the bus]

An alternative theory; Merseyrail are replacing their existing fleet with a smaller number of new trains and there was no mention, as far as I'm aware, of enough units being ordered for network expansion. Therefore, potentially fitting a small number of additional units with batteries is either just for a bit of extra fleet flexibility or they have discovered some kind of issue with the battery units and believe a few more might be required to work the Headbolt Lane service reliably. After all, battery fitted units can also work fully electrified routes.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there range/capacity to extend the Helsby to somewhere useful like Warrington?
Or extending some of the Chesters to Crewe, replacing the TfW shuttle?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Who in their right mind throws good money after bad ?.

Surely Merseyrail should be sitting on their wallet waiting for the extended teething troubles to get ironed out ?.

Perhaps it is a sweetener from Stadler to add traction batteries free of charge to a few more 777s ?.
But why choose the incompatible half of the fleet ?.

As for adding extra routes. Does this mean Merseyrail ordered too many 777s for the current network ?.
Or have the 777s turned out to be more reliable than anticipated so need to use them on another route !.

BBS - sorry.

 

[Jack Hay]

Who in their right mind throws good money after bad ?.

Surely Merseyrail should be sitting on their wallet waiting for the extended teething troubles to get ironed out ?.

Perhaps it is a sweetener from Stadler to add traction batteries free of charge to a few more 777s ?.
But why choose the incompatible half of the fleet ?.

As for adding extra routes. Does this mean Merseyrail ordered too many 777s for the current network ?.
Or have the 777s turned out to be more reliable than anticipated so need to use them on another route !.

BBS - sorry.

The impression I'm gaining from contacts in Liverpool is that the PTE would like to expand Merseyrail and all options mentioned above have been or are being looked at. Of the examples mentioned today, I'd say that extending beyond Helsby to WBQ is highly unlikely. It's not just about the range of the 777s but WBQ is not equipped to terminate/turn round trains from the south, so there would be expensive infrastructure charges. This doesn't apply at Helsby (or Crewe).

 

[507021]

An alternative theory; Merseyrail are replacing their existing fleet with a smaller number of new trains and there was no mention, as far as I'm aware, of enough units being ordered for network expansion. Therefore, potentially fitting a small number of additional units with batteries is either just for a bit of extra fleet flexibility or they have discovered some kind of issue with the battery units and believe a few more might be required to work the Headbolt Lane service reliably. After all, battery fitted units can also work fully electrified routes.

I am of the view, as I said in the first post, any further expansion to the Merseyrail network would be unwise until the 777s have consistent reliability and having more resilience for Headbolt Lane would be a wise move. However, I'm also trying to be more optimistic they might start working properly in the near future and if this purchase does materialise, there could just be enough slack in the fleet to reach Helsby. That said, I'd actually rather the Liverpool City Region waited until Stadler have got the 777s working properly before they consider giving them any more money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

Who in their right mind throws good money after bad ?.

Surely Merseyrail should be sitting on their wallet waiting for the extended teething troubles to get ironed out ?.

Perhaps it is a sweetener from Stadler to add traction batteries free of charge to a few more 777s ?.
But why choose the incompatible half of the fleet ?.

As for adding extra routes. Does this mean Merseyrail ordered too many 777s for the current network ?.
Or have the 777s turned out to be more reliable than anticipated so need to use them on another route !.

BBS - sorry.

I do recall Steve Rotheram saying he was going to seek compensation from Stadler due to the poor performance of the fleet, but haven't heard anything of it since. I'd say slightly too few units were ordered, but with a potential service to Helsby at 2tph needing four units, it may be possible to provide the required extra unit from what they have already if slack is sufficient once the fleet becomes reliable. All hypothetical at this stage, of course.

 

[Jack Hay]

Nothing moves fast in the rail industry these days. Looking at business cases and planning any extension to Merseyrail services will take time. It's perfectly sensible IMHO to do this in parallel with solving the early day problems with the 777s. Spending more money with Stadler would be some way off. That said, if Merseyrail are ambitious to extend, they don't really have an alternative to Stadler.

 

[Meerkat]

How long are the 777 options valid for?