Actively Seeking Out the Guard

[Edward101]

I am travelling on the West Highland line between Fort William and Mallaig next week, and planning a number of rail journeys which start at unstaffed stations with no TVMs such as Morar and Glenfinnan. In case this seems a strange question, I do not have much experience of travelling from unstaffed stations without TVMs, so am looking for advice: what (in the eyes of the law) classes as the first possible opportunity to buy a ticket in this situation? Is it seen as reasonable to board, sit down and wait for the guard to come to you, or are you better off seeking out the guard immediately after departure, following the practice of actively seeking out the guard mandated in the conditions of carriage? Where can the guard be found on trains on this route? I understand fully that it is, at law, the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a ticket at the first opportunity, not the guard's responsibility to come to them. I presume sitting and waiting for the guard to come (ie 'pay when challenged') could lead to being suspected of intent to avoid paying a fare.

If the guard steps down onto the platform on arrival to perform station duties, would it be good practice to approach them immediately and explain to them the immediate need to buy a ticket? Sorry, I don't use unstaffed stations very often so don't understand the 'drill'. The law and common practice may of course differ significantly. I understand the guard may not be able to issue it on the platform, but to make yourself known to the guard immediately would at least show honest intentions.

What would be best, and legal, practice in this situation? I understand that Scotrail are generally less litigious than other operators, but that is not to say they cannot technically prosecute if they suspect dishonesty or a 'pay when challenged' approach. I understand that intent can only be judged by actions: I intend to act honestly at all times, but need to show this at all times.

 

[yorkie]

Is it seen as reasonable to board, sit down and wait for the guard to come to you

Yes.

or are you better off seeking out the guard immediately after departure, following the practice of actively seeking out the guard mandated in the conditions of carriage?

There is no such mandate in the NRCoC.

Where can the guard be found on trains on this route?

Actively walking up and down the train, in my experience.

I understand fully that it is, at law, the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a ticket at the first opportunity, not the guard's responsibility to come to them. I presume sitting and waiting for the guard to come (ie 'pay when challenged') could lead to being suspected of intent to avoid paying a fare.

You presume wrongly.

If the guard steps down onto the platform on arrival to perform station duties, would it be good practice to approach them immediately and explain to them the immediate need to buy a ticket?

The Guard will not be able to sell a ticket on the platform. The Guard will not be surprised that a passenger boarding at stations with no ticket issuing facilities will require a ticket.

Sorry, I don't use unstaffed stations very often so don't understand the 'drill'. The law and common practice may of course differ significantly. I understand the guard may not be able to issue it on the platform, but to make yourself known to the guard immediately would at least show honest intentions.

There is no such requirement. If there were, it would be absolute chaos on some lines (e.g. Severn Beach; see below) if numerous passengers tried to speak to the Guard when the Guard was busy performing platform duties.

What would be best, and legal, practice in this situation? I understand that Scotrail are generally less litigious than other operators, but that is not to say they cannot technically prosecute if they suspect dishonesty or a 'pay when challenged' approach. I understand that intent can only be judged by actions: I intend to act honestly at all times, but need to show this at all times.

You show this by having an accepted payment method and present this to the Guard when the Guard comes round selling tickets.

Scotrail are not the least bit litigious. Their Guards will be more than happy to come round to you to sell you a ticket. They may well have other passengers - who boarded earlier - to serve first, and may well have other duties to attend to first. But they are friendly and attentive. Relax and enjoy the journey.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=563310#post563310

There is no requirement documented that you must seek out the guard if there are no facilities for you to buy.

In addition, see my post here, as on some routes it is also considered rude and jumping the queue to approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket. I was a regular commuter on the Severn Beach line in Bristol (all stations unstaffed except for Bristol Temple Meads) a few years ago, and when people did this then they would always get shouted down by others (including me if I was close enough), and in some cases the guard would inform them that they would be seen in due course as some passengers got on earlier but had not yet been seen.

 

[ScotrailINV]

I am travelling on the West Highland line between Fort William and Mallaig next week, and planning a number of rail journeys which start at unstaffed stations with no TVMs such as Morar and Glenfinnan. In case this seems a strange question, I do not have much experience of travelling from unstaffed stations without TVMs, so am looking for advice: what (in the eyes of the law) classes as the first possible opportunity to buy a ticket in this situation? Is it seen as reasonable to board, sit down and wait for the guard to come to you, or are you better off seeking out the guard immediately after departure, following the practice of actively seeking out the guard mandated in the conditions of carriage? Where can the guard be found on trains on this route? I understand fully that it is, at law, the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have a ticket at the first opportunity, not the guard's responsibility to come to them. I presume sitting and waiting for the guard to come (ie 'pay when challenged') could lead to being suspected of intent to avoid paying a fare.

If the guard steps down onto the platform on arrival to perform station duties, would it be good practice to approach them immediately and explain to them the immediate need to buy a ticket? Sorry, I don't use unstaffed stations very often so don't understand the 'drill'. The law and common practice may of course differ significantly. I understand the guard may not be able to issue it on the platform, but to make yourself known to the guard immediately would at least show honest intentions.

What would be best, and legal, practice in this situation? I understand that Scotrail are generally less litigious than other operators, but that is not to say they cannot technically prosecute if they suspect dishonesty or a 'pay when challenged' approach. I understand that intent can only be judged by actions: I intend to act honestly at all times, but need to show this at all times.

Get on, find a seat and enjoy the view!

The guard will notice you getting on and will pass through the train either after the station you board at or the following one.

Your first opportunity to buy is from the guard onboard if the station is unstaffed with no TVM. They're a pretty laid back bunch up here anyway, as long as you're not trying to take the p*ss!

 

[LowLevel]

I'd love to know how they keep up with this selling in boarding order malarkey - on my busiest trains I just go from back to front constantly and sell to people from everywhere as I get to them. I couldn't say who boarded where That said I also don't mind hanging around at the terminus to sell to folk I've missed who are feeling honest or who have connections on the platform.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I don't sell to folk in boarding order either, that seems a bizarre way of working especially on a busy lineline, I go from back to front and vice versa constantly, and if interrupted by a station stop I restart from my last position so that the theory being I at least charge folk travelling the furthest (and paying the most). It might mean a few local fares slip away but I find its the fairest, easiest and most efficient way of working.

 

[Edward101]

Thanks for your replies, I understand what to do now. I must have misunderstood the procedure, sorry. I got the idea of actively seeking out the guard from this information provided by East Midlands Trains, whose website states 'it is your responsibility to approach a member of on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible'

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/information/contact-us/policies-procedures/Penalty-Fares

This is why I assumed it to be a legal requirement mandated in the NRCoC, which I now know to be incorrect. I presume it must actually be an operator specific requirement, which does not apply to Scotrail.

Am I right in thinking I have nothing to worry about, when travelling on the West Highland Line? I have indeed used the line once in recent times (but not travelling from any unstaffed stations) and the staff seemed very accommodating.

 

[Carntyne]

Thanks for your replies, I understand what to do now. I must have misunderstood the procedure, sorry. I got the idea of actively seeking out the guard from this information provided by East Midlands Trains, whose website states 'it is your responsibility to approach a member of on-board staff to purchase a ticket as soon as possible'

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/information/contact-us/policies-procedures/Penalty-Fares

This is why I assumed it to be a legal requirement mandated in the NRCoC, which I now know to be incorrect. I presume it must actually be an operator specific requirement, which does not apply to Scotrail.

Am I right in thinking I have nothing to worry about, when travelling on the West Highland Line? I have indeed used the line once in recent times (but not travelling from any unstaffed stations) and the staff seemed very accommodating.

You'll be absolutely fine, don't worry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why I assumed it to be a legal requirement mandated in the NRCoC, which I now know to be incorrect. I presume it must actually be an operator specific requirement, which does not apply to Scotrail.

It's more a Penalty Fares thing, where boarding without a ticket is an exception because there are supposed to always be ticket issuing facilities at the station. On the route concerned, ScotRail do not operate Penalty Fares. It's usual to take a seat and wait for the guard to come through.

 

[crehld]

There is no requirement to actively seek out the guard. Any suggestion there is such a requirement is false. Take your seat and enjoy the scenery!

 

[Hadders]

I travel this line quite regularly. There is no need to seek out the guard - they will come to you. Let's remember that there is a vast difference in the number of people travelling from rural stations on the West Highland Line compared to a busy commuter service in the South East.

The guards notice the people getting on at each station (as there are usually so few) and will come and find you.

No need to worry about penalty fares etc.

 

[455driver]

The examples of people being told to seek out the guards are ones where the station they have boarded the train does have facilities available but they have not used them for some reason or other (normally "coz I wuz runnin late" etc) and it is given as an example to avoid any suspicion of trying to avoid the fare due.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, if you have passed a means of paying your fare for some reason and wish to purchase on board, it is best to ask the guard *before* boarding the train if they can sell you a ticket, as you're not strictly allowed to do this but by asking permission you make it more likely there will not be an issue. If not you are best not to board, as at the other end you might find a PF or prosecution awaiting.

If boarding from an unstaffed station with no TVM, take a seat and wait for the guard to get to you.

 

[Agent_c]

Its Scotrail... things are a little more customer focused up here. No Penalty fare or criminal prosecutions, just sit and wait.

Between Fort William and Mallaig the trains likely only going to be two cars anyway, so don't sweat about it.

 

[cactustwirly]

I did this journey from Spean Bridge in the summer. Just sit down, and let the guard come to you. The train isn't usually busy and the Guards are quite visible.

 

[47271]

Most days I get on at a Highland Main Line station without ticketing facilities. I know most of the conductors pretty well and they would think that I'd gone mad if I started to follow them round the train, or worse still pestering them on the platform, asking to buy a ticket.

Very occasionally - maybe 1 in 30 - they don't get to me en route because they get caught with something else. No problem, I just go to the platform ticket office or Waverley or Queen Street and buy before I go through the barriers. I suppose I could dodge my fare if I wanted to in those circumstances if I was going to Gleneagles or somewhere small like that, but realistically how much money is Scotrail losing through occasional missed sales on tiny flows like that?

 

[reb0118]

I could dodge my fare if I wanted to in those circumstances if I was going to Gleneagles or somewhere small like that, but realistically how much money is Scotrail losing through occasional missed sales on tiny flows like that?

It always pays to take a wander through when taking over at Perth and to do a full ticket check.......

• 
  "All tickets please"
  
  "A return from Newtonmore to York please"
  
  "No problem sir, cash or card?"

Sorted!

 

[crehld]

Most days I get on at a Highland Main Line station without ticketing facilities. I know most of the conductors pretty well and they would think that I'd gone mad if I started to follow them round the train, or worse still pestering them on the platform, asking to buy a ticket.

Indeed. I have been told off, twice now, for actively seeking out the guard by approaching the rear cab. So I always take a seat and let them come to me.

 

[gray1404]

Indeed. I have been told off, twice now, for actively seeking out the guard by approaching the rear cab. So I always take a seat and let them come to me.

On which line did they tell you off on?

 

[trentside]

Indeed. I have been told off, twice now, for actively seeking out the guard by approaching the rear cab. So I always take a seat and let them come to me.

It's the best approach. Most of us have our own ways of working and will come through the train when it's appropriate to do so. We have some closely spaced stations and it's best not to get caught in the train doing tickets if you can avoid it, so if you approached me then I'd ask you nicely to sit down and reassure you I'd be through shortly! If however it was a journey between the two stations I'd appreciate you being so honest

 

[CatfordCat]

Interesting.

Is the 'there is no requirement to seek out the guard' thing specific to Scotrail (or whatever it's called this week) or across the network?

(longer story follows)

I had a minor run-in with SWT customer service a year or two back about this -

my local station was having a spate of no ticket vending machine due to vandalism (which I accept is not SWT's fault) and the ticket office is only staffed morning peak.

At that time, I was travelling to London about one day a week, usually up in the afternoon - I paid the guard if s/he came round, and if not, sought out someone with a ticket machine inside the barriers at Waterloo. Never any suggestion that I should have sought the guard.

One occasion got sold an 'off peak' when I was expecting 'super off peak' and sent SWT an e-mail to query times for this (I wasn't sure if there was a pm peak restriction)

Response from SWT was frankly snotty, and mainly to the effect that I'd be liable for penalty fare and / or prosecution if I didn't seek out the guard next time.

Next week I tried, guard was in other 458 unit and communicating door locked. Wasn't going to risk train doors being closed while sprinting between units at the next station.

(and that's leaving aside the question of how practical that would have been if I was elderly infirm / disabled / had much luggage / had small child etc etc)

I'm a transport worker (not railways) and don't have a lot of sympathy for fare dodgers, but don't really have a lot of time for SWT's attitude to passengers who are trying to do the right thing...

 

[najaB]

Interesting.

Is the 'there is no requirement to seek out the guard' thing specific to Scotrail (or whatever it's called this week) or across the network?

Neither the NRCoC nor the Railway Byelaws say that you have to seek out the guard - the guidance quoted above is solely applicable in a single operator's Penalty Fare area (and may not even be enforceable in court).

As an aside, Scotrail has been so named since sectorisation of BR - so at least since the 1980's.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting.

Is the 'there is no requirement to seek out the guard' thing specific to Scotrail (or whatever it's called this week) or across the network?

(longer story follows)

I had a minor run-in with SWT customer service a year or two back about this -

my local station was having a spate of no ticket vending machine due to vandalism (which I accept is not SWT's fault) and the ticket office is only staffed morning peak.

At that time, I was travelling to London about one day a week, usually up in the afternoon - I paid the guard if s/he came round, and if not, sought out someone with a ticket machine inside the barriers at Waterloo. Never any suggestion that I should have sought the guard.

One occasion got sold an 'off peak' when I was expecting 'super off peak' and sent SWT an e-mail to query times for this (I wasn't sure if there was a pm peak restriction)

Response from SWT was frankly snotty, and mainly to the effect that I'd be liable for penalty fare and / or prosecution if I didn't seek out the guard next time.

Next week I tried, guard was in other 458 unit and communicating door locked. Wasn't going to risk train doors being closed while sprinting between units at the next station.

(and that's leaving aside the question of how practical that would have been if I was elderly infirm / disabled / had much luggage / had small child etc etc)

I'm a transport worker (not railways) and don't have a lot of sympathy for fare dodgers, but don't really have a lot of time for SWT's attitude to passengers who are trying to do the right thing...

Scotrail won't treat people like that.

There us no such requirement and its a nonsense for SWT to suggest there is; in contrast to Scotrail many of their trains in the London area are rostered to have no ticket selling staff on-board whatsoever. Walking up and down a long train (with no connection between some units) looking for someone to sell you a ticket on such trains would be a ludicrous 'requirement'.

Rest assured, there is no such requirement in the NRCoC

I did once use a help point when I found West Byfleet lacking on facilities and on that occasion SWT said to board the train and didn't stipulate any requirement to walk up and down it, so I guess you were misadvised by junior/inexperienced staff.

Some Customer Relations staff at some Train Companies appear to be lacking in knowledge. Some are even based hundreds of miles from the TOC's operations and some are agency or external staff. I don't think that will ever change!