Accidentally using my return ticket in wrong order

[XmaX]

I commute almost daily from Cambridge to King's Cross, and buy e-tickets every day (for convenience and Nectar points!). Last week, I accidentally purchased London-Cambridge off peak return instead of Cambridge-London. I didn't notice it until the gate in Cambridge, predictably, didn't open. When I showed my e-ticket to gateline staff, they said it's the wrong ticket, so I swiped to my return journey for the gates to open.

Now, I realise that technically speaking, I was not allowed to then use my originally outbound journey to return to Cambridge, but I did nevertheless (gates at King's Cross were open, and they opened without issue at Cambridge). Either way, this was a one time thing. My question is - had I been caught, could I realistically face any consequences? The fare I paid was correct, and it was a genuine mistake (which if course is very hard to prove, although my daily usage pattern show a clear directional pattern). Was there a right way of handling it, other than buying another ticket, or paying the £10 admin change fee?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If you had have been caught, then you wouldn't have had a valid ticket, as you can't use the outbound part of a return ticket after you've used the return portion. So possibly a penalty fare if it was considered that you had made a "genuine mistake".

As to how to handle the situation, you might just have had to chalk this one up to experience, and shelled out for an additional single ticket before travelling from Kings Cross to get back from London to Cambridge.

And to put a positive spin on that, think of the extra Nectar points!

Anyone concur or have a different opinion on this?

 

[Watershed]

I commute almost daily from Cambridge to King's Cross, and buy e-tickets every day (for convenience and Nectar points!). Last week, I accidentally purchased London-Cambridge off peak return instead of Cambridge-London. I didn't notice it until the gate in Cambridge, predictably, didn't open. When I showed my e-ticket to gateline staff, they said it's the wrong ticket, so I swiped to my return journey for the gates to open.

Now, I realise that technically speaking, I was not allowed to then use my originally outbound journey to return to Cambridge, but I did nevertheless (gates at King's Cross were open, and they opened without issue at Cambridge). Either way, this was a one time thing. My question is - had I been caught, could I realistically face any consequences? The fare I paid was correct, and it was a genuine mistake (which if course is very hard to prove, although my daily usage pattern show a clear directional pattern). Was there a right way of handling it, other than buying another ticket, or paying the £10 admin change fee?

The outward portion of a return ticket is only valid if the return portion has not been used. This rule predominantly exists because on a number of journeys (particularly commuter journeys into London), tickets are more expensive in one direction than the other, or have different restrictions.

Obviously in your case you did not intend to take advantage of any loophole, but the rule nevertheless applies - and so by using the outward portion after you had already used the return portion, you travelled without a valid ticket, and hence without having paid the correct fare.

Given that you were doing so with the intention of avoiding refunding your ticket, it could even be argued that you travelled without previously having paid the correct fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof.

Accordingly, had you been caught, you could have faced consequences varying in severity from:

• Being let off with "words of advice"
• Being sold a new ticket, whose price could range from a Railcard discounted Super Off-Peak single from your origin (if you're lucky) to an undiscounted Anytime single (if you're less lucky)
• Being issued with a Penalty Fare, which would cost twice the appropriate fare (Off-Peak or Anytime as relevant, but without any Railcard discount)
• Having your details taken and being offered an out of court settlement for £80-100 plus the Anytime single
• Having your details taken and not being offered a settlement, or refusing any settlement offered, resulting in a prosecution and likely a conviction under Railway Byelaw 18, for boarding a train without a valid ticket. The penalty would be a fine of 50-150% of your weekly income, plus the appropriate fare, plus costs, plus the victim surcharge,.
• As above, but with a conviction under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ("RoRA"), for travelling without previously having paid your fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof. This would likely result in a slightly higher fine than above, and would also leave you with a criminal record liable to be declared for most purposes for a year (and possibly still liable to be disclosed in exceptional circumstances after that).
• As above, but being prosecuted for multiple instances of alleged fare evasion, if your purchasing history indicates this is something you may have done on multiple occasions. With an accordingly higher fine and fares to repay.

As to the odds of any of the outcomes lower down in that list happening, I could not comment. But I would certainly not seek to repeat what you did last week.

In future, it may be worthwhile considering buying your tickets from a retailer which allows fee-free refunds on unused tickets - I understand this is the case with tickets bought from GTR's (Great Northern's) websites and apps.

Furthermore, buying tickets online, always through the same retailer, creates a nice traceable purchasing history for any investigator to look through. Therefore it is not something I would do unless I was absolutely sure everything I did was above board. Of course, I appreciate there is great convenience in doing it that way.

 

[ABB125]

The return portion of a return ticket is only valid if the outward portion has not been used.

Isn't it "the outward portion is only valid if the return has not been used"?

 

[Watershed]

Isn't it "the outward portion is only valid if the return has not been used"?

Oops! glad to see someone proofreads my posts!

 

[Hadders]

Worth pointing out that although fares in both directions are normally the same price this isn’t the case between Cambridge and London.

Cambridge to London Terminals Anytime Day Return is £45.60
London Terminals to Cambridge Anytime Day Return is £40.20

A train company might take a dim view of a passenger between Cambridge and London using tickets in the wrong order.

 

[Annetts key]

All the above just shows how utterly shambolic the railway ticket and fares structure is.

 

[Watershed]

All the above just shows how utterly shambolic the railway ticket and fares structure is.

It has numerous issues, but outward portions not being valid after the return portion has been used is by no means a new restriction. It is something which has long been around on other countries' railways too, as well as on the airlines.

If you wanted the restriction to be lifted, then at the very least I imagine all differentially priced/restricted fares would have to increase/change to match the less favourable direction. Surely you would not want this to happen?

Anyway, I think if anyone wants to discuss this topic further it would probably be wise to split off into a new thread.

 

[Snow1964]

Of course, until about 30 years ago, would have been irrelevant as the outward and return leg would have been on same card ticket.

Splitting to two separate tickets changed the emphasis from staff punching correct side to the customer potentially making an error. A solution to one problem where the customer inherited a new penalty risk

 

[yorkie]

All the above just shows how utterly shambolic the railway ticket and fares structure is.

I don't think it does, but feel free to explain why you think it does, and what you propose instead, in a new thread

 

[K.o.R]

Being issued with a Penalty Fare, which would cost twice the appropriate fare (Off-Peak or Anytime as relevant, but without any Railcard discount)

Isn't a Penalty Fare twice the Anytime fare to the next stop, and the Anytime fare from there to the destination if you don't then leave the train?

 

[Annetts key]

I don't think it does, but feel free to explain why you think it does, and what you propose instead, in a new thread

You are of course free to start a new topic yourself if you wish to explain further or if you really want to encourage further debate. Myself, I do not wish to comment further in this topic.

 

[robbeech]

Isn't a Penalty Fare twice the Anytime fare to the next stop, and the Anytime fare from there to the destination if you don't then leave the train?

It depends where the passenger/inspector interaction occurs. If it happens en route then yes but if it happens at the end of your journey then there is no further travel so at the Cambridge gateline on the way out for example it would be twice the London to Cambridge fare.

I would think (is there data for this i could be completely wrong) most PFs are issued OFF train.

 

[Watershed]

Isn't a Penalty Fare twice the Anytime fare to the next stop, and the Anytime fare from there to the destination if you don't then leave the train?

If issued onboard a train, it's twice the appropriate fare to the next stop and then an Anytime fare if you wish to continue on the same service beyond that stop.

Of course, if there's enough time and e-tickets are available on the route in question, you could buy an Off-Peak ticket on your phone for the remainder of your journey, rather than buying an Anytime fare from the RPI.

If issued at a station, it's twice the appropriate fare for the journey you made.

In all cases the appropriate fare is the cheapest single fare that would have been valid for the journey, albeit without Railcard discounts. So Off-Peak tickets or cheaper route restricted fares must be considered when determining this.

 

[shredder1]

All the above just shows how utterly shambolic the railway ticket and fares structure is.

I was thinking pretty much the same thing.

 

[nanstallon]

Unless the customer has used the ticket incorrectly so as to gain a fare advantage, why can't he make the return journey first, and then the outward journey? Surely, if he 'saved' £5 by his mistake, he should just pay that as an excess fare.

This piffly-wiffling attitude to the customer is likely to make people think that jumping into the car for their travel is simpler - hardly a 'green' outcome.

 

[Class800]

Unless the customer has used the ticket incorrectly so as to gain a fare advantage, why can't he make the return journey first, and then the outward journey? Surely, if he 'saved' £5 by his mistake, he should just pay that as an excess fare.

This piffly-wiffling attitude to the customer is likely to make people think that jumping into the car for their travel is simpler - hardly a 'green' outcome.

I would tend to agree - and a while ago posted a thread in speculative discussion about the issues the railway faces with inclusivity, and how this in part stems from not needing to prove deliberate evasion. Maybe we can add something to that thread?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Is the right thing to do to go to the ticket office and get it excessed to the correct ticket?

 

[Titfield]

This piffly-wiffling attitude to the customer is likely to make people think that jumping into the car for their travel is simpler - hardly a 'green' outcome.

I wonder how many car owners would go by rail due to the "piffly-wiffling" attitude to drivers shown by parking enforcement officers and the police.

Apparently 12,000 parking tickets a day were issued in the UK.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...ar-news-motorist-travel-rac-foundation-report

And 2.4 Million other motoring offences:

https://www.insurancefactory.co.uk/news/May-2019/How-many-drivers-are-convicted-in-the-UK-each-year

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the right thing to do to go to the ticket office and get it excessed to the correct ticket?

Correct thing, IMHO, would be to return back to wherever one obtained the tickets from, and have them re-issued. Will of course have to pay any difference in fare if the tickets happen to be differently priced depending on the direction of travel on the outward leg.

Debatable point as to whether any £10 admin fee then needs to paid, or what should be done if the original tickets have already been partly used, but out of sequence, in other words the return portion of the ticket has been used before the outward portion.

 

[robbeech]

I wonder how many car owners would go by rail due to the "piffly-wiffling" attitude to drivers shown by parking enforcement officers and the police.

If you park somewhere you shouldn’t for your own gain and get a ticket then it’ll cost you £50 or so and you’ll learn not to do it again. If you buy the wrong ticket by mistake and there is no financial gain you could end up in court with a fine of hundreds of pounds or at least end up paying hundreds of pounds in a settlement.
Infact we see here rather frequently where people have the correct ticket and end up in trouble because of it.

So no, drivers won’t get out of their car and use the railway because they got caught doing something wrong when they can get caught doing something RIGHT on the railway and end up in more trouble.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I wonder how many car owners would go by rail due to the "piffly-wiffling" attitude to drivers shown by parking enforcement officers and the police.

But car parking tickets are issued if you haven't paid to park where you have. And it's often only £25 for the penalty anyway. You don't need to fight to get that settlement. Depending on where it is you can often get it overturned too.
You can have paid for a rail ticket, sometimed even a fully valid one, and still be whacked with a penalty of over £100. And on the railway you're automatically guilty. This is why people will move from rail to car and not car to rail.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Infact we see here rather frequently where people have the correct ticket and end up in trouble because of it.

@robbeech. Sorry, don't follow. Surely folk normally get into trouble when they don't have the correct ticket (or, indeed, any ticket)! Could you further clarify?

 

[Watershed]

People can and do still get into trouble despite holding a valid ticket. For example if they're offered an "unusual" route on their itinerary, which a particular member of staff claims isn't valid.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this all that frequently though? Most issues that we see on the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' sub-forum are folk with no ticket at all (due to whatever reason, usually spurious), those that have been caught repeatedly "donut-ting" (tickets held for start and finish of journey, but not the more expensive middle section), or them with expired railcards (which often expired months ago).

 

[miklcct]

Is this all that frequently though? Most issues that we see on the 'Disputes and Prosecutions' sub-forum are folk with no ticket at all (due to whatever reason, usually spurious), those that have been caught "donut-ting" (tickets held for start and finish of journey, but not the middle section), or them with expired railcards (which often expired months ago).

There are also a lot of threads about guards forcing one to buy a ticket / excess after a delay.

 

[nanstallon]

This is why I get a bit fed up. No reasonable person minds a dishonest traveller getting penalised; indeed it is annoying when they do get away with it. However, I hate a system where penalties, and harsh ones, are applied to someone who made a genuine mistake. You get the feeling that 'they' are looking to catch you out, and you have to be ultra careful to have the right ticket. There is a certain viciousness about it.

 

[robbeech]

@robbeech. Sorry, don't follow. Surely folk normally get into trouble when they don't have the correct ticket (or, indeed, any ticket)! Could you further clarify?

I mean exactly what I say. People with valid tickets DO get into trouble if a guard or revenue inspector doesn’t like the ticket (for whatever reason). You are automatically guilty and as a passenger you suddenly need huge amounts of railway ticketing knowledge to prove your innocence (given that you’re guilty by default on the railway). As most passengers don’t have this knowledge they usually back down and pay up despite this not being fair. The railway has no intention of dealing with these appalling members of staff (which is thankfully a small number) because they generate the most revenue for the railway, lawfully or otherwise.

The other common one, and the one I ought to mark as ‘frequently’ rather than the situation above is when people have genuinely been unable to buy a ticket using the official methods. There are ticket machines near me that are broken more often than they are working. And ticket offices that are closed for half the time they should be open. The combination of the two should lead to guards frequenting the passenger saloon selling tickets and being happy with the extra commission but instead it often ends up in the passenger getting a penalty fare when one isn’t due. Again, as a humble passenger you are guilty until proven innocent. If the operator says the machine is working it is working and the penalty fare will need to be paid, even if it’s absolutely smashed to bits. Even on occasions where 2 or 3 completely unrelated people have spoken to social media staff to explain the machine is broken throughout the course of a day people are still issued penalty fares and appeals are rejected.

The railway holds all the cards the moment you set foot on their property, and that is something you must take into account when using it.

 

[nanstallon]

I mean exactly what I say. People with valid tickets DO get into trouble if a guard or revenue inspector doesn’t like the ticket (for whatever reason). You are automatically guilty and as a passenger you suddenly need huge amounts of railway ticketing knowledge to prove your innocence (given that you’re guilty by default on the railway). As most passengers don’t have this knowledge they usually back down and pay up despite this not being fair. The railway has no intention of dealing with these appalling members of staff (which is thankfully a small number) because they generate the most revenue for the railway, lawfully or otherwise.

The other common one, and the one I ought to mark as ‘frequently’ rather than the situation above is when people have genuinely been unable to buy a ticket using the official methods. There are ticket machines near me that are broken more often than they are working. And ticket offices that are closed for half the time they should be open. The combination of the two should lead to guards frequenting the passenger saloon selling tickets and being happy with the extra commission but instead it often ends up in the passenger getting a penalty fare when one isn’t due. Again, as a humble passenger you are guilty until proven innocent. If the operator says the machine is working it is working and the penalty fare will need to be paid, even if it’s absolutely smashed to bits. Even on occasions where 2 or 3 completely unrelated people have spoken to social media staff to explain the machine is broken throughout the course of a day people are still issued penalty fares and appeals are rejected.

The railway holds all the cards the moment you set foot on their property, and that is something you must take into account when using it.

That sums it up. Why does the railway have this privileged position? Usually in law, there is only guilt where there is a dishonest intent.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I mean exactly what I say. People with valid tickets DO get into trouble if a guard or revenue inspector doesn’t like the ticket (for whatever reason). You are automatically guilty and as a passenger you suddenly need huge amounts of railway ticketing knowledge to prove your innocence (given that you’re guilty by default on the railway). As most passengers don’t have this knowledge they usually back down and pay up despite this not being fair. The railway has no intention of dealing with these appalling members of staff (which is thankfully a small number) because they generate the most revenue for the railway, lawfully or otherwise.

The other common one, and the one I ought to mark as ‘frequently’ rather than the situation above is when people have genuinely been unable to buy a ticket using the official methods. There are ticket machines near me that are broken more often than they are working. And ticket offices that are closed for half the time they should be open. The combination of the two should lead to guards frequenting the passenger saloon selling tickets and being happy with the extra commission but instead it often ends up in the passenger getting a penalty fare when one isn’t due. Again, as a humble passenger you are guilty until proven innocent. If the operator says the machine is working it is working and the penalty fare will need to be paid, even if it’s absolutely smashed to bits. Even on occasions where 2 or 3 completely unrelated people have spoken to social media staff to explain the machine is broken throughout the course of a day people are still issued penalty fares and appeals are rejected.

The railway holds all the cards the moment you set foot on their property, and that is something you must take into account when using it.

But earlier you asserted

Infact we see here rather frequently where people have the correct ticket and end up in trouble because of it.

Are you now moving your position to what you have heard and seen in real life (but which the rest of us need to take on trust) or are there examples which we see here frequently and that you can point us to?

The thing is, we seem to see enough real problems (some due to a fault of the railway, but some self-imposed by people wanting a free ride and some due to people not understanding the rules) without needing to assume more of them are the railway’s fault than is actually the case.