Accidental Passcom Activation

[Starmill]

So, recently I've been having a bit of bad luck on trains. I missed a train to Whitby, I woke up 4 hours late for a day out (because of a fire alarm at 1am), I printed off a wrong-dated LM Great Escape voucher, had an argument with a ticket office, forgotten about the railcard minimum fare (twice) and managed to end up in some odd disputes with people on here.

Anyway enough of my general moaning. Let me moan about the topic at hand.

I was on a rather cramped 185 this afternoon and stood in the vestibule by the disabled loo behind 1ST Class. As it was quite busy... but admittedly not crush-loaded like some out of Leeds often are of an evening, I was stood up against the far door with my face pressed against the window, so I at least could see outside. After I'd been on the train for around 10 minutes I was trying to shift my bag around to make a bit more space and after a jolt of the train realised I had inadvertently 'pulled' the passcom handle. Of course, this is impossible, I'd actually pushed the bottom in with my shoulder, but it had the same effect. What ensued was the most tense wait and awkward conversation I think I've ever had, and it seemed like a very long time before the driver answered it, though the light came on straight away. Anhyoo I realised I'd have to say something, so I went with: "Oh, sorry that was an accidental application." "OK, I'll get the guard to come and reset it." And that was it.

About 5 minutes later the guard came out of the cab and walked straight past, I had to call him back to come and reset it. Has anyone else ever done this? Does it happen often? Those vestibules get very full. What about other stock? How upset about it do drivers get? Do people do it and not own up? Is it a design flaw that you can activate it by leaning on it (I assume all desiros have the same type?) or is that necessary? I know it happens quite a bit on Metrolink and they never seem to mind, I've seen some people using it for service information on trams! Is it safe to make a call to the guard while driving at 60+? And what happens if the train stops? Now THAT would be awkward!

It really feels like it's been 'me against the Railway' this past month!

 

[Monty]

It happens, it's a problem common with but not exclusively to Desiro stock. The green egress handles also suffer with the same issue as it's ever so easy to grab at them without realising it. SWT have started to have flaps installed over the egress handles on it's 444/450 stock in order to prevent an accidental activations in the future.

If it's a genuine accident passengers have no need to worry, I perfectly understand how these things can happen. What does however annoy me are the less reputable 'customers' who think it's funny to interfere with safety equipment on purpose.

 

[185]

Does it happen often?

Yes. Occasionally occurred on 185s when I was there, especially during the peak. More frequently was the call for aid (CFA) in the small toilet, where if gents stood up leaned back against the mirror, the CFA would go off. Train was like a clowns car :roll:

 

[the sniper]

About 5 minutes later the guard came out of the cab and walked straight past, I had to call him back to come and reset it.

The Guard wouldn't know which one it was without checking them all. Normally you only even know the carriage by looking out of the cab window and seeing which one has the body side light lit up on the outside. When you saw them coming it'd have been wise to point yourself out.

Does it happen often?

Occasionally, but not as often as you'd think. Far more common are deliberate, malicious passcom activations, usually done as yobs leave the train.

How upset about it do drivers get?

Generally not as upset as the Guard who has to go and sort it out.

And what happens if the train stops? Now THAT would be awkward!

It shouldn't do. The driver will normally override it.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Had it a few months back with a small child who grabbed it as we entered a curve. Personally it doesn't bother me, find it amusing if anything

 

[Chris M]

I recall a tube driver saying that one of the largest causes of passenger alarms being pulled on the pre-refurbishment D stocks (I think) was babies being carried by mum or dad so they were at eye level with the red handle that looks a lot like the red handle-shaped toys they have. So naturally they reach over the parent's shoulder and grab it. Leading to an amused driver and a very embarrased mother or father.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

happens a lot on 170s in the disabled toilet, the train sways and the poor passenger ends up pushing the call for aid instead of close/open door!! I'm usually in a world of my own in the back end when it goes off!!

 

[ainsworth74]

It shouldn't do. The driver will normally override it.

On modern stock but I think (emphasis on 'think') older stuff still just goes for a full break application with no chance to override.

 

[edwin_m]

Various accident reports on Railways Archive discuss the use of communication cords. The steam-era version operated a valve to the train vacuum pipe at the end of each coach but the opening was less than for the guard's brake valve so the driver would notice the loss of vacuum but could operate the large ejector to replenish the vacuum faster than it was lost. The driver was supposed to avoid stopping in a dangerous place like a viaduct or tunnel. Operating cords in several coaches would increase the loss of vacuum and would be more likely to bring the train to a stop.

Communication cords and later emergency handles on air-braked stock, prior to the modern intercom versions, also operate a valve in the brake pipe, and I presume the driver could similarly override it but I haven't seen any evidence.

 

[scotraildriver]

It shouldn't do. The driver will normally override it.[/QUOTE]

Here at Scotrail we are no longer allowed to override a passcom. So if you do it up here you WILL stop!

 

[Crossover]

I'm generally very wary when around these various uncovered devices, be it passcoms or egress handles - doesn't surprise me that these things do happen.

I have seen Calls For Aid activated a couple of times - once on a Pendo out of Euston at the disabled space and a kid got over excited. The guard reset it and wasn't overly concerned, though the parents were a little red-faced! The other was a kid on a refurb ATW 158 - guard came and spent 5 minutes trying to find which of the many new panels was the one for resetting it - I think they were new as part of the refurb. The guard wasn't bothered about it then either, since it was an accidental activation.

I would have to say that if these things will immediately stop the train without possibility of override, they need to start putting the plastic covers over that are easy enough to remove in an emergency but enough to stop accidental activation from bags etc

 

[evoluzione]

On modern stock but I think (emphasis on 'think') older stuff still just goes for a full break application with no chance to override.

Nothing I sign at Northern has Pass Comm override, full service brake application if pulled.

 

[Crossover]

Nothing I sign at Northern has Pass Comm override, full service brake application if pulled.

To be fair, some of the Northern stuff is of such an age it probably just throws down an anchor to bring it to a stop

 

[Harlesden]

happens a lot on 170s in the disabled toilet, the train sways and the poor passenger ends up pushing the call for aid instead of close/open door!! I'm usually in a world of my own in the back end when it goes off!!

I've often wondered what a guard/conductor does with himself/herself in the back end whilst the train is in motion and everything is hunky dory.

 

[Lockwood]

I've often wondered what a guard/conductor does with himself/herself in the back end

Insert childish joke here

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

book or something on our phones normally, we dont just sit there staring out the window! Wakes you up when it goes off as there is absolutely no prior warning, just BUZZZZZZZZZZZ....ZZZZZ until you reset it. On the 15x you come to a stop in a heap!

 

[TheEdge]

we dont just sit there staring out the window!

I do occasionally!

 

[BestWestern]

Communication cords and later emergency handles on air-braked stock, prior to the modern intercom versions, also operate a valve in the brake pipe, and I presume the driver could similarly override it but I haven't seen any evidence.

Most BR era stock has no override facility, if the handle is pulled the brakes will apply and remain so until the handle is reset. Hence in most cases the Guard (and sometimes the Driver too if he is particularly proactive, or in a hurry!) will walk through the affected coaches in order to find the activated passcom(s) and reset them, until which time the train cannot move (the Driver can isolate a safety system which will release the brakes in the event that the passcom brake application cannot be reset, but that is last resort stuff). On most stock the carriage(s) involved are indicated by the bodyside hazard light, although in some cases (HST) it's down to the crew to walk the length of the train and find it; on the MK3s there is a 'whistle' (usually more of a painful groan) built into the valve on the brake pipe which is intended to aide identification, but that's it. Needless to say, a Driver override is a very good idea!

 

[maniacmartin]

There was a spate of accidental applications when the newest LU Victoria line stock was introduced, with buttons that were too easy to accidentally press. How it didn't occur to the stock's designers beats me! It only took a few weeks before they had lids added over the top - if you look you can see that this lid is a later addition.

 

[Starmill]

Hmmmm I'm a bit confused by the various different systems in use really. As such I don't normally take much notice of how they vary, but the next train I got on was a Northern 158, which had a red pull-down handle which said something like "pull to stop the train" on it - with no communication facility. Anyway I'm not sure it would be possible to accidentally pull that type of hande. Certainly not on a 185 where it is covered.

 

[TheEdge]

Hmmmm I'm a bit confused by the various different systems in use really. As such I don't normally take much notice of how they vary, but the next train I got on was a Northern 158, which had a red pull-down handle which said something like "pull to stop the train" on it - with no communication facility. Anyway I'm not sure it would be possible to accidentally pull that type of hande. Certainly not on a 185 where it is covered.

There are basically two types.

There is the one you describe which is a pull handle and is the older type. It will immediately break air continuity on the train, apply emergency brakes and stop it straight away. Needs to be reset by someone with a T-key before the train can move again. Generally these are now only seen on older BR built stock (although may not be universally true) and are very much out of fashion. Often known as "the tap"

The second type is the newer Passcom. Those are the big red buttons. They don't automatically stop the train (although as has been said some TOCs rules make the drivers stop anyway) but sound a buzzer in the cab and enable the passenger and driver to communicate. The big benefit of these is they don't apply the brake so if the train would otherwise stop in a dangerous/difficult to access place the driver can control the stop of the train.

 

[the sniper]

book or something on our phones normally, we dont just sit there staring out the window! Wakes you up when it goes off as there is absolutely no prior warning, just BUZZZZZZZZZZZ....ZZZZZ until you reset it.

On a 323, if the passcom is pulled you don't know anything about it in the back cab as there's no noise. You only know when the driver cab to cab's you.

On the other hand, the noise produced in the likes of a Class 170 has given me nightmares!

 

[High Dyke]

I've often wondered what a guard/conductor does with himself/herself in the back end whilst the train is in motion and everything is hunky dory.

Depending on the time of day the Mem usually whips out her camera and takes a few snaps as she goes, sometimes has a book or magazine to read or just sits there permeating the atmosphere... Then again at least two of those can be done simultaneously! :roll:

 

[M60lad]

Also from watching various rail videos online I'm led to believe that on newer stock especially Desiro's if a Passcom is activated yes it doesn't bring the train to a complete stop but also it show's up on the computer screen in the cab's or the leading cab (not sure which) which one has been activated so the days of the conductor/driver hunting for it have gone

It amazes me sometimes thought with older stock how long it takes for the conductor/driver to realise which Passcom has been activated, surely the light on the outside of the unit is enough but they've then walked past the affected pass-com many times before realising which one it is.

Out of interest while we're on about Passcom activations has it ever happened on older stock especially whereby the Passcom has been activated and it has failed to reset for some unforknown reason

 

[TheEdge]

Out of interest while we're on about Passcom activations has it ever happened on older stock especially whereby the Passcom has been activated and it has failed to reset for some unforknown reason

Its not unknown for that to happen. I think it is more common on the older style dump the air type passcoms. Its known to happen on Mk3s.

 

[Goatboy]

A small child activated the passcom on a 158 I was on about a year ago. The train immediatly stopped. After 5 minutes with no sign of the guard I went to find him - he was selling tickets in the other coach. Before I had a chance to explain what I wanted he said 'if you are asking why the train has stopped, its probably a red signal'.

I think he was rather suprised when I explained it wasn't...

 

[plastictaffy]

Pass-com I've only had activated once. Late night train, 12 cars, full of ****heads. The one that was pushed?? Unsurprisingly, right in the middle. You get the CFA buttons pressed pretty regularly by people using the khazi. They push the CFA to flush, it realise the mistake they've made, and bugger off quickly. Then when you answer it, you just end up talking to the inside of aforementioned khazi!!!

The Passcom, if it's pulled, does indeed have an over-ride facility. On the stock I sign, their is a big black button at floor level just above the DSD pedal, right by the driver's right boot. Not long after it goes, you get a rather annoyed sounding driver on the other end of the phone asking you to reset it. Well, that's what I got, anyway.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It happens, it's a problem common with but not exclusively to Desiro stock. The green egress handles also suffer with the same issue as it's ever so easy to grab at them without realising it. SWT have started to have flaps installed over the egress handles on it's 444/450 stock in order to prevent an accidental activations in the future.

Such measures are increasingly common. Turbostar variants have had glass covers over the egress handles for years but lightweight plastic covers now sit atop the Pass Comm buttons on LM 172s and Chiltern 168s. It's too early to say from personal experience whether they reduce the number of accidental activations but I dare say somebody with all the numbers in front of them would be able to tell how big an impact it has made.

I was working on a train not so long back when a kid who I'd guess was two or three pressed the pass comm button twice in the space of about half an hour. The first time the parents looked a little embarrassed. They were absolutely mortified the second time and moved away from the button.

 

[edwin_m]

Anyone on here ever activated a passcomm for a genuine reason? The closest I came was when testing them and the door release handles on Croydon trams.

 

[jon0844]

I used one once when someone was threatening other passengers in first class on a 365, the front compartment behind the driver - who must have heard it all anyway.

Forget any rules about conflict avoidance or not wanting to delay a train by getting yourself injured, as the driver came into the train and chucked the guy off. The driver then made it quite clear he wouldn't be travelling on his train that night.

The train was still at King's Cross, but the driver dealt with it all by himself and I'm fairly certain it was the last train of the night.

This predated Twitter (I suspect it was back when it was Wagn), and I guess these days the guy would probably be Tweeting the TOC, Daily Mail, his MP and the European Court of Human Rights instead of just having to watch the train leave without him.