Accessibility across the network

[crunchello]

Hi all, my first discussion here so I’m sorry if it’s not in the right place!

I’m doing my A-Level Product Design coursework into accessibility on the railways, especially for elderly people, and I’d really appreciate your views on this - either personal experiences or from people you’ve heard about would be great. As part of my coursework I’ve got to get opinions from different users of the rail network and different opinions on how to solve the problem.

I’m specifically focusing on the platform-train interface rather than the general station accessibility.

So I suppose I’m asking: “What product could I design to make it easier for elderly people and other people with limited mobility to use the rail network?”

Thanks all

 

[Dr Hoo]

Welcome to the Forums. The ‘solution’ to the platform train gap has already been designed. Standard platform heights, matching train floor height, and extendable step boards to bridge any remaining gap down to curvature. E.g. Merseyrail Class 777 and Greater Anglia Stadler units.
Costs quite a bit of money.

 

[hux385]

For non-standard height trains, I wonder whether automatically deployable ramps could be retrofitted to the relevant doorways of stock (i.e. where the accessible seating space is). Some kind of invention in which the passenger can press a button on the train or on the platform (or maybe a radar key to prevent misuse) and the ramp automatically deploys when the doors open. I suppose it depends how much blue sky thinking is allowed for your project!

 

[RGM654]

Don't Eurostars have automatically extending steps?

 

[crunchello]

For non-standard height trains, I wonder whether automatically deployable ramps could be retrofitted to the relevant doorways of stock (i.e. where the accessible seating space is). Some kind of invention in which the passenger can press a button on the train or on the platform (or maybe a radar key to prevent misuse) and the ramp automatically deploys when the doors open. I suppose it depends how much blue sky thinking is allowed for your project!

I only need to manufacture a prototype - as long as I can prove it WOULD work then it doesn’t actually have to be functional.

Thanks for the advice though - sounds similar to the process on buses in London where the ramp extends from the middle doors.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Welcome to the Forums. The ‘solution’ to the platform train gap has already been designed. Standard platform heights, matching train floor height, and extendable step boards to bridge any remaining gap down to curvature. E.g. Merseyrail Class 777 and Greater Anglia Stadler units.
Costs quite a bit of money.

It's a good solution, but requires a heck of a lot of investment in trains and infrastructure, not to mention the time taken to deploy it across all stations. I see nothing wrong with someone seeking to design something speculatively as a project for A level - who knows, they may even come up with something that could be used as a stop gap!

I'm going to say that I've seen a few minibuses where there have been pull out handrails that can be used to help climb in and out, along with a fold out step - albeit manually operated. Could you fashion something similar that could be easily retrofitted? Or, if you only need to prototype, it doesn't necessarily need to be easy to retrofit, in which case you could have small plane type stairs coming out from under the door?

 

[philthetube]

I

For non-standard height trains, I wonder whether automatically deployable ramps could be retrofitted to the relevant doorways of stock (i.e. where the accessible seating space is). Some kind of invention in which the passenger can press a button on the train or on the platform (or maybe a radar key to prevent misuse) and the ramp automatically deploys when the doors open. I suppose it depends how much blue sky thinking is allowed for your project!

The issue I see here is there would be no check that the platform is clear, there are many different reasons why it might not be, crowded platform, etc. However I really wish it could be solved though I struggle to see how without spending billions

 

[The exile]

For non-standard height trains, I wonder whether automatically deployable ramps could be retrofitted to the relevant doorways of stock (i.e. where the accessible seating space is). Some kind of invention in which the passenger can press a button on the train or on the platform (or maybe a radar key to prevent misuse) and the ramp automatically deploys when the doors open. I suppose it depends how much blue sky thinking is allowed for your project!

I suspect one problem is that to achieve an acceptable gradient at all locations the ramp would have to be capable of extending a long way - such that it would in itself become a hazard to anyone moving along the platform. A good idea to cope with those height differences which make boarding hard for some people but which are relatively small compared with the cost of rectifying the platform height. (Ie the “almost level boarding but not quite”)

 

[TUC]

I suspect one problem is that to achieve an acceptable gradient at all locations the ramp would have to be capable of extending a long way - such that it would in itself become a hazard to anyone moving along the platform. A good idea to cope with those height differences which make boarding hard for some people but which are relatively small compared with the cost of rectifying the platform height.

Would it need to extend further than the yellow line? If not, hard to see how it would be a hazard since passengers should not be walking alongside the train within that area.

 

[Magdalia]

I’m doing my A-Level Product Design coursework into accessibility on the railways, especially for elderly people,

What you need to be doing is talking to some elderly people, to find out what they want.

I live in an apartment block for over 55s with a total population of about 100, and run by a housing association. Car drivers are less than half so a lot of us rely on public transport. Very few of us use the train, more of us use the bus, but lots rely heavily on taxis, even those that can't really afford it. A lot of that is because of accessibility issues. I suggest that you find a similar apartment block near where you live, contact the housing association that runs the property, and see if you can find a way of talking to the people who live there.

Another angle is what adaptations already work well elsewhere. The obvious example here, which you can see, is accessible toilets. Less visible are the adaptations in elderly people's own homes. These are usually installed following advice from occupational therapists, so you should be able to get some input from them without having to go and look inside elderly people's homes.

In my experience, knowing a bit about how my neighbours live their lives, the responses so far are typical of people "barking up the wrong tree". Look at an accessible toilet, or adaptations in people's own homes, and it becomes clear that what matters is not feet but hands. Elderly people need something to hold onto that gives the three points of contact that should be familiar to anyone who has done health and safety training. Also, elderly people should not be made to do anything which means that they have to give up the three points of contact, especially if one of their hands is already holding a walking stick. That includes having to use a hand to press a button to open the doors. On a bus they don't have to do that.

If I was looking to design a product for this, it would be some sort of extendable grab handle that folds out from inside the train when the doors are opened, and retracts again before the doors close. Doors fitted with such a device would open and close at every station, without anyone needing to use a hand to press a button.

 

[Class 170101]

I suspect one problem is that to achieve an acceptable gradient at all locations the ramp would have to be capable of extending a long way - such that it would in itself become a hazard to anyone moving along the platform. A good idea to cope with those height differences which make boarding hard for some people but which are relatively small compared with the cost of rectifying the platform height.

Ramps will almost certainly need to extend beyond the yellow line to achieve an acceptable gradient. Indeed this is sometimes not possible due to platform structures built long before DDA was considered. Another thing to consider is Harrington Humps this should reduce the step height between platform and train without the costs of raising the whole platform.

 

[The exile]

Would it need to extend further than the yellow line? If not, hard to see how it would be a hazard since passengers should not be walking alongside the train within that area.

Try the Bristol-bound platform at Stapleton Road, for example.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Would it need to extend further than the yellow line? If not, hard to see how it would be a hazard since passengers should not be walking alongside the train within that area.

Even with the yellow ramp people still manage to trip over it not looking where they are going,

 

[Discuss223]

Hi all, my first discussion here so I’m sorry if it’s not in the right place!

I’m doing my A-Level Product Design coursework into accessibility on the railways, especially for elderly people, and I’d really appreciate your views on this - either personal experiences or from people you’ve heard about would be great. As part of my coursework I’ve got to get opinions from different users of the rail network and different opinions on how to solve the problem.

I’m specifically focusing on the platform-train interface rather than the general station accessibility.

So I suppose I’m asking: “What product could I design to make it easier for elderly people and other people with limited mobility to use the rail network?”

Thanks all

Welcome to Railforums and best of luck with your studies.

The answers to your question falls in to two categories:- The Hard Product & The Soft Product

The soft product can be defined by having adequate staffing at stations to provide assistance to disabled customers and also the reliability and effective communications to execute the required tasks. Passenger Assistance schemes can vary between operators but East Midlands Railway, for example, offer assistance for customers with just two hours of notice required. In terms of how could the passenger assistance scheme be improved, for example with reliability, large marker points could be placed on the platforms where customers could wait for assistance. Customers could stand there so that Train Managers and Customer Service Officers would be aware that a customer is needing assistance. Having more Customer Service Officers on platforms at busy stations to provide assistance would enhance this. However, some stations may not have wheelchair accessible lifts and prior notice may still be required for those confined in a wheelchair to have assistance actually getting on to the platform.

The hard product is something that is more difficult to improve. Stadler have introduced a fleet of trains for Greater Anglia that offers more level boarding, by having the step level closer to the platform level. This negates the need for laborious reaching and stepping to get in to the vestibule. What you could argue for would be for powered ramps to be fitted to trains near the doorway to better assist customers onboard and get them inside and out of the cold quicker. By having the ramps already in place for deployment, the passenger assistant will spend less time looking for the ramp on the platform or unlocking the ramp cupboard and moving other customers out of the way to deploy it.

However, the downsides to this would be that extra weight would be added to the train, which could retard the acceleration and power output of the train. A ramp system would take up space in the vestibule which would mean less standing room for customers on busy services too.

Another possibility that could be deemed as both a soft and a hard product would be for a zonal system to be introduced on to platforms for customers who require things such as priority seating or wheelchair boarding to wait at. Zonal systems are currently in place on the London North Eastern Railway network for their services only to denote where is best to wait for First Class and Standard Class accommodation. This requires the train to operate in specific formations and the number 1 and number 2 cabs to be facing a certain direction.

In stations with curved platforms, a dwell can often be created between the coach and platform edge, meaning a large gap upon boarding or alighting which can be unfriendly to customers with mobility issues, such as arthritis. In some situations, it is possible to mitigate this with platform straightening and a straightening of the track, as took place at Market Harborough in 2019 (although the main reason for that was to increase the linespeed for non-stopping services). This would not be possible as some stations, such as York, where a curvature is required to get the track in position for the route ahead and because of buildings being in the way of what would be a straighter route.

 

[TUC]

Even with the yellow ramp people still manage to trip over it not looking where they are going,

So this new proposal would be no greater a risk then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==

Welcome to Railforums and best of luck with your studies.

The answers to your question falls in to two categories:- The Hard Product & The Soft Product

The soft product can be defined by having adequate staffing at stations to provide assistance to disabled customers and also the reliability and effective communications to execute the required tasks. Passenger Assistance schemes can vary between operators but East Midlands Railway, for example, offer assistance for customers with just two hours of notice required. In terms of how could the passenger assistance scheme be improved, for example with reliability, large marker points could be placed on the platforms where customers could wait for assistance. Customers could stand there so that Train Managers and Customer Service Officers would be aware that a customer is needing assistance. Having more Customer Service Officers on platforms at busy stations to provide assistance would enhance this. However, some stations may not have wheelchair accessible lifts and prior notice may still be required for those confined in a wheelchair to have assistance actually getting on to the platform.

The hard product is something that is more difficult to improve. Stadler have introduced a fleet of trains for Greater Anglia that offers more level boarding, by having the step level closer to the platform level. This negates the need for laborious reaching and stepping to get in to the vestibule. What you could argue for would be for powered ramps to be fitted to trains near the doorway to better assist customers onboard and get them inside and out of the cold quicker. By having the ramps already in place for deployment, the passenger assistant will spend less time looking for the ramp on the platform or unlocking the ramp cupboard and moving other customers out of the way to deploy it.

However, the downsides to this would be that extra weight would be added to the train, which could retard the acceleration and power output of the train. A ramp system would take up space in the vestibule which would mean less standing room for customers on busy services too.

Another possibility that could be deemed as both a soft and a hard product would be for a zonal system to be introduced on to platforms for customers who require things such as priority seating or wheelchair boarding to wait at. Zonal systems are currently in place on the London North Eastern Railway network for their services only to denote where is best to wait for First Class and Standard Class accommodation. This requires the train to operate in specific formations and the number 1 and number 2 cabs to be facing a certain direction.

In stations with curved platforms, a dwell can often be created between the coach and platform edge, meaning a large gap upon boarding or alighting which can be unfriendly to customers with mobility issues, such as arthritis. In some situations, it is possible to mitigate this with platform straightening and a straightening of the track, as took place at Market Harborough in 2019 (although the main reason for that was to increase the linespeed for non-stopping services). This would not be possible as some stations, such as York, where a curvature is required to get the track in position for the route ahead and because of buildings being in the way of what would be a straighter route.

It's important to remember that accessibility is not just about wheelchair users. For visually impaired passengers, it's the gap between train and platform which is the challenge, not the step height.

 

[Discuss223]

So this new proposal would be no greater a risk then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==


It's important to remember that accessibility is not just about wheelchair users. For visually impaired passengers, it's the gap between train and platform which is the challenge, not the step height.

Yes, for example:- Did you know that all trains on our network are required to have contrasting coloured external passenger doors, that are painted in a different colour to the body of the train? This helps visually impaired customers identify where to board and also where hazards, such as trapping points are.

 

[TUC]

Yes, for example:- Did you know that all trains on our network are required to have contrasting coloured external passenger doors, that are painted in a different colour to the body of the train? This helps visually impaired customers identify where to board and also where hazards, such as trapping points are.

Yes I do know that, but it is only of benefit if you have a degree of vision. It's helpful, not the only solution needed.

 

[Magdalia]

Even with the yellow ramp people still manage to trip over it not looking where they are going,

Lots of my neighbours have fallen over, and some have sustained serious injuries. In a few cases they haven't recovered from those injuries. They would be insulted if it was suggested to them that they fell over because they were not looking where they were going or what they were doing.

Most of these falls happen when people are not provided with something to hold on to, so they can't maintain the three points of contact.

Most elderly people are active and fiercely independent. If they are going to be able to use trains, then that needs to be without requiring to arrange assistance. But lots of them are physically frail because of heart conditions, strokes and other conditions. In particular, lots of falls are down to reduction in what has now come to be called core stability. These are the muscles that the body uses to recover when it gets off balance, muscles which nobody notices until they stop working effectively. Having to balance is a feature of only having one or two points of contact, which is why provision of three points of contact is so important.

This discussion demonstrates a widespread obliviousness to what active elderly people actually need to make using the trains safe for them.

 

[TUC]

Lots of my neighbours have fallen over, and some have sustained serious injuries. In a few cases they haven't recovered from those injuries. They would be insulted if it was suggested to them that they fell over because they were not looking where they were going or what they were doing.

Most of these falls happen when people are not provided with something to hold on to, so they can't maintain the three points of contact.

Most elderly people are active and fiercely independent. If they are going to be able to use trains, then that needs to be without requiring to arrange assistance. But lots of them are physically frail because of heart conditions, strokes and other conditions. In particular, lots of falls are down to reduction in what has now come to be called core stability. These are the muscles that the body uses to recover when it gets off balance, muscles which nobody notices until they stop working effectively. Having to balance is a feature of only having one or two points of contact, which is why provision of three points of balance is so important.

This discussion demonstrates a widespread obliviousness to what active elderly people actually need to make using the trains safe for them.

I think you're missing the point. I don't think it was about people falling off the ramp, or indeed about elderly people in particular. I think it was about people walking sideways along the platform next to the train and not noticing the ramp.

 

[Magdalia]

I think you're missing the point

It is you, and most others here, who are missing the point. For most elderly people access to and from trains is not about ramps. Ramps only matter for people with wheels: wheelchairs, scooters and rollators.

For example, scroll down this page to see an example of an active elderly woman who probably would have liked something better to hold onto when alighting from a train:

The Queen hired out an entire train carriage to take her to Sandringham

The Queen does what the Queen wants.

www.cosmopolitan.com

This afternoon, the 93-year-old monarch arrived in King's Lynn (the nearest station to her Sandringham estate in Norfolk, where she spends Christmas) after hiring out an entire carriage of a pre-scheduled public train to to transport herself. Queen Elizabeth does this every year to ensure her privacy, and also presumably to fit in her whole entourage - plus all the boxes of Quality Street she's brought up for the royals to devour on Christmas Day.

 

[TUC]

It is you, and most others here, who are missing the point. For most elderly people access to and from trains is not about ramps. Ramps only matter for people with wheels: wheelchairs, scooters and rollators.

For example, scroll down this page to see an example of an active elderly woman who probably would have liked something better to hold onto when alighting from a train:

The Queen hired out an entire train carriage to take her to Sandringham

The Queen does what the Queen wants.

www.cosmopolitan.com

That may well be, but it is a separate point to the one I was referring to.

 

[Spaceship323]

It is you, and most others here, who are missing the point. For most elderly people access to and from trains is not about ramps. Ramps only matter for people with wheels: wheelchairs, scooters and rollators.

Exactly this. I can't use a ramp because of vertigo. The step up or the gap is not a problem but the getting down is due to lack of balance. I have to use both hands to hold the rail and go down backwards (I'm 58, not elderly yet)...and yes the step on the new 196's is far too high, the old 172's were better

 

[Magdalia]

Exactly this. I can't use a ramp because of vertigo. The step up or the gap is not a problem but the getting down is due to lack of balance. I have to use both hands to hold the rail and go down backwards (I'm 58, not elderly yet)...and yes the step on the new 196's is far too high

Thanks, this is a great example, and something that must be quite difficult for you.

I’m doing my A-Level Product Design coursework into accessibility on the railways, especially for elderly people

Going back to the original poster, what could they design that would make getting out of the train easier and safer for you?

 

[Spaceship323]

For me personally just a lower step would do at the moment
I've been on a 777 in Merseyside and they're wonderful to get on and off with their step free boarding

 

[Topological]

My thought is something which combined a ramp and a perch seat. I am not a designer but can imagine that would allow a solution for waiting for a train and accessing the train when the service arrived. A suitable design could be made lightweight to allow easier movement. The ramp would have handles/rails at the platform end that bent round to be the base of the product as a seat.

I am imagining somehow the curvature at the end on the platform would allow adaptation to the different heights of train doors.

Where the ramp is for a wheelchair user to board then the perch seat offers respite for any carer.

It may of course be completely impractical, but it might attract marks for thinking outside the box.

 

[RichHI]

Hi all, my first discussion here so I’m sorry if it’s not in the right place!

I’m doing my A-Level Product Design coursework into accessibility on the railways, especially for elderly people, and I’d really appreciate your views on this - either personal experiences or from people you’ve heard about would be great. As part of my coursework I’ve got to get opinions from different users of the rail network and different opinions on how to solve the problem.

I’m specifically focusing on the platform-train interface rather than the general station accessibility.

So I suppose I’m asking: “What product could I design to make it easier for elderly people and other people with limited mobility to use the rail network?”

Thanks all

As someone with a mobility limitation on stairs, my experience is that major stations tend to have good provision if booked in advance. That said, step free access at London Termini to the underground is severely lacking in all but the most recent works. Similarly secondary stations and commuter lines have severely limited offerings, many times being in one direction only. Where there lifts they often out if service with no advance notice. So if you avoid trying to use public transport to a major station, book in advance and stick to the most important stations then it is OK. Otherwise especially in London it is dreadful. Other cities in Europe, the US and Asia are light years ahead of London.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Lots of my neighbours have fallen over, and some have sustained serious injuries. In a few cases they haven't recovered from those injuries. They would be insulted if it was suggested to them that they fell over because they were not looking where they were going or what they were doing.

Most of these falls happen when people are not provided with something to hold on to, so they can't maintain the three points of contact.

Most elderly people are active and fiercely independent. If they are going to be able to use trains, then that needs to be without requiring to arrange assistance. But lots of them are physically frail because of heart conditions, strokes and other conditions. In particular, lots of falls are down to reduction in what has now come to be called core stability. These are the muscles that the body uses to recover when it gets off balance, muscles which nobody notices until they stop working effectively. Having to balance is a feature of only having one or two points of contact, which is why provision of three points of contact is so important.

This discussion demonstrates a widespread obliviousness to what active elderly people actually need to make using the trains safe for them.

Not who I mean I mean people walking by busy looking at their phones or mind is elsewhere, although there is also the crush in too for busy trains that cause further issues,

 

[philthetube]

So this new proposal would be no greater a risk then?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Feb 2025 ==


It's important to remember that accessibility is not just about wheelchair users. For visually impaired passengers, it's the gap between train and platform which is the challenge, not the step height.

a handrail stretching out of the train down to the platform would be a huge boon to many, I am not sure if it could be done though, possibly something integral to the train which could be slid out

 

[RichHI]

a handrail stretching out of the train down to the platform would be a huge boon to many, I am not sure if it could be done though, possibly something integral to the train which could be slid out

They have something like this in Tokyo.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Ramps will almost certainly need to extend beyond the yellow line to achieve an acceptable gradient. Indeed this is sometimes not possible due to platform structures built long before DDA was considered. Another thing to consider is Harrington Humps this should reduce the step height between platform and train without the costs of raising the whole platform.

I've seen a few on the continent where there's a small ramp to a platform from which a second, longer ramp runs out parallel to the train. The whole caboodle has handrails around it so you can't fall off. Puts our ramps to shame really! Plus it means it can work with multiple train types quite easily.

Yes, for example:- Did you know that all trains on our network are required to have contrasting coloured external passenger doors, that are painted in a different colour to the body of the train? This helps visually impaired customers identify where to board and also where hazards, such as trapping points are.

Which works really well until you get to Elizabeth Line stations, or Jubilee ones with platform edge devices where there isn't really any distinction between where the door will be and where the bodyshell is!

It is you, and most others here, who are missing the point. For most elderly people access to and from trains is not about ramps. Ramps only matter for people with wheels: wheelchairs, scooters and rollators.

For example, scroll down this page to see an example of an active elderly woman who probably would have liked something better to hold onto when alighting from a train:

The Queen hired out an entire train carriage to take her to Sandringham

The Queen does what the Queen wants.

www.cosmopolitan.com

I think both of you may be missing the point that this is public transport - it needs to suit everyone, so inevitably there will be compromises. The best option would be level boarding, the least worst may be a ramp with a handrail. I understand your comments about how there is a tendency to consider elderly people alongside disabled people, but at the other end of the spectrum you have babies in pushchairs and toddlers who struggle to board trains - my kids still struggle with our local line as there's such a huge step up, and I don't look back fondly on the days of having to lift three of them in and out of trains while platform staff hurry you along!