AC Electric Liveries

[Inversnecky]

It just occurred to me that I don’t think I’ve ever seen a photo of an AC electric (first generation: classes 81-85) in BR Green.

Presumably they all went from ‘electric blue’ to corporate blue and grey?

 

[SouthernR]

Yes, not sure about the 'grey' though. The white window surrounds seemed to disappear when yellow ends came in.
AFAIK BR green was only used on DC locos, eg. class 71, 73 (first 6), 76, 77.
Apparently, the class 86s originally appeared in a version of rail blue [The AC Locomotive Group (archive.org)]. I don't remember them being any different to classes 81 - 85.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Only started spotting early 1970. I don’t recall ever seeing an AC electric in BR green.

 

[randyrippley]

It just occurred to me that I don’t think I’ve ever seen a photo of an AC electric (first generation: classes 81-85) in BR Green.

Presumably they all went from ‘electric blue’ to corporate blue and grey?

None were painted green
81-86 went from electric blue to rail blue
87 were painted rail blue from new
E1000/E2001 was black

 

[Pit_buzzer]

I'm pretty sure the 86s were rail Blue from new applied in the same style as the electric blue of the 81 to 85s.
You can't really tell on black and white photos but it's very apparent in colour photos, especially if there's an 81 to 85 in shot as well

 

[Taunton]

Was the Electric Blue the same shade as used on the Glasgow Blue Trains, which I always thought was Caledonian Railway blue?

 

[Inversnecky]

Yes, not sure about the 'grey' though.

Oops, not sure why I said that. I was just thinking of the full livery as used on coaches.

 

[Magdalia]

I have heard a story that the Brush Type 2s D5578 and D5579 liveries were experiments for A/C electric locomotives, and that visibility tests were conducted on the Clacton branch some time in summer 1960.

But I've never found a reliable source to corroborate the story, can anyone help?

 

[coppercapped]

I have heard a story that the Brush Type 2s D5578 and D5579 liveries were experiments for A/C electric locomotives, and that visibility tests were conducted on the Clacton branch some time in summer 1960.

But I've never found a reliable source to corroborate the story, can anyone help?

There may well have been visibility tests at the time you mention but by this time the colour for the first 100 25kV AC locomotives had already been decided. Webb and Duncan's book AC Electric Locomotives of British Rail, David and Charles 1979, gives the date for the entry into service of E3001 as Period 12, 1959. Someone else may know the exact date.

 

[Magdalia]

There may well have been visibility tests at the time you mention but by this time the colour for the first 100 25kV AC locomotives had already been decided. Webb and Duncan's book AC Electric Locomotives of British Rail, David and Charles 1979, gives the date for the entry into service of E3001 as Period 12, 1959. Someone else may know the exact date.

Thanks. You are right that the dates don't match up. If I had looked in the right place then I could have worked that out.

E3001 was handed over at a ceremony at Sandbach on 27/11/59.
And E3037 appeared at an exhibition at Marylebone on 27/04/60.

I can now place that story into the bin!

 

[Taunton]

I have heard a story that the Brush Type 2s D5578 and D5579 liveries were experiments for A/C electric locomotives, and that visibility tests were conducted on the Clacton branch some time in summer 1960.

But I've never found a reliable source to corroborate the story, can anyone help?

The blue one and the orange one ...

They were actually featured in Trains Illustrated magazine (later Modern Railways) at the time, in what was probably their first ever colour page printing. There is an article in there about it. Someone here must have the old magazines.

I've seen, more recently, photos of these two on the Internet somewhere. After a while both colours had faded very badly.

 

[SouthernR]

Was the Electric Blue the same shade as used on the Glasgow Blue Trains, which I always thought was Caledonian Railway blue?

Perhaps. The Glasgow blue was described in publicity material -
"The boldest decision of all was to give this new rolling stock an emphatic, bright colour that confers a special regional distinction. This paintwork is of bold royal blue, a gay hue that has also its historical interest in being the colour used on the steam engines of the Caledonian Railway."
I don't suppose any early photos exist of the two side by side. This is not a reliable check anyway. At least one Glasgow EMU was trialled in the Manchester area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jan 2022 ==

The blue one and the orange one ...

They were actually featured in Trains Illustrated magazine (later Modern Railways) at the time, in what was probably their first ever colour page printing. There is an article in there about it. Someone here must have the old magazines.

I've seen, more recently, photos of these two on the Internet somewhere. After a while both colours had faded very badly.

See rmweb topic 121280 .

 

[32475]

I have this wonderful photo by Eddie Bellas of 70031 ‘Byron’ hauling brand new AL6 E3165 and repaired AL3 E3027 across Winwick Junction from Vulcan Foundry en route to Crewe in June 1965. Although it’s a black and white photo, the blue livery with white cab is very clear.

 

[gg1]

I have this wonderful photo by Eddie Bellas of 70031 ‘Byron’ hauling brand new AL6 E3165 and repaired AL3 E3027 across Winwick Junction from Vulcan Foundry en route to Crewe in June 1965. Although it’s a black and white photo, the blue livery with white cab is very clear.
View attachment 108991

An unusually clean 70031 too, mid 60s steam locos were frequently filthy.

 

[tbwbear]

As that wonderful picture shows, the "AL6 Blue" was certainly darker than the AL1-5 "electric blue". But do we know for certain that it was exactly rail blue as applied later?

Logic says it must have been rail blue because that colour had been launched in January 1965, but then so had the double arrow logo and that is clearly not part of the scheme shown above. I have a colour photo in a book of E3164 but it is not easy to tell.

I think the very first AL6s were delivered without yellow warning panels, but were all the rest delivered as shown above: small warning panels, without double arrows and in rail blue ?

(Edited to add - there is a photo of E3166 in Brian Haresnape's "Journey by Design" - It has what is described as an "experimental" full yellow front / obviously later adopted but still has the lion crest.)

Were the AL6s then the only locomotives in rail blue but without the new double arrow logo / full yellow front ?

 

[randyrippley]

Remember that blue pigments weren't very stable and the paint on the AL3 has had five years or so to fade

 

[Taunton]

We have discussed blue paint shades before, and factors which lead to differences include :

- Deterioration of colour film/prints over 50 years.
- Different compositions of film (particularly Kodachrome compared to the rest)
- Particular propensity of blue pigment in paints to fade (hence why it was less commonly used than red or green)
- How the paint is manufactured/mixed/thinned
- What it is painted on top of (I think this one is key; it explains why so many diesels repainted BR blue took on a greenish tinge)
- How many coats
- Whether varnished

It's not unique to blue. The cream used on rolling stock varied even more widely; it's deterioration and piebald touching-up appearence was key to it being given up.

Separately, how many others here look out for the very nicely maintained AL6 in electric blue, with white cabs, which has been on the Up side at Rugby for several years now. I passed there not long ago on a first post-lockdown WCML trip, and was pleased to see it still there.

 

[Inversnecky]

I have heard a story that the Brush Type 2s D5578 and D5579 liveries were experiments for A/C electric locomotives, and that visibility tests were conducted on the Clacton branch some time in summer 1960.

But I've never found a reliable source to corroborate the story, can anyone help?

There’s several photos of them in ‘experimental blue livery’ online:

1960 - New Blue Brush at Platform 10..

BR Brush Type 2 D5578 - in experimental blue livery - at Liverpool Street station in February 1960. The loco had entered service the previous month, and remained in this livery until 1964, when it was repainted in 'standard' BR dark green. It was later painted in a different shade of blue...

www.flickr.com

 

[Springs Branch]

One other feature of the AL-series loco liveries was use of raised, cast-metal (aluminium?) characters for the E3xxx fleet number and "ferret & dartboard" or double-arrow logos. Looked quite classy IMHO.

Anyone know how these fitted in with the different classes 81 to 86 and the livery iterations?
(I thought this would be no problem to look up with Google, but not as easy as I imagined)

Obviously once all the AC locos went to Rail Blue, full yellow ends and final BR corporate identity, these items were just applied with white paint.


Electric hauled train at Euston, 1966, geograph 6436599 by Alan Murray Rust
Alan Murray Rust / Electric hauled train at Euston, 1966. Reproduced under Creative Commons 2.0 Attribution-ShareAlike licence.


85035 at Crewe
Tutenkhamun Sleeping, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons

 

[Strathclyder]

In colour, here is AL1 E3009 (the locomotive wrecked in the Hixon accident in January 1968) at Crewe in August 1965 in Electric Blue with small yellow warning panel and white cab roof & window surrounds. An unidentified AL5 lurks in the background:

(004-17-Crewe-14-8-65-E3009 - copyright of David L. Quayle)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

I have this wonderful photo by Eddie Bellas of 70031 ‘Byron’ hauling brand new AL6 E3165 and repaired AL3 E3027 across Winwick Junction from Vulcan Foundry en route to Crewe in June 1965. Although it’s a black and white photo, the blue livery with white cab is very clear.
View attachment 108991

Two of my fave electrics and one of my fave steam loco designs in one pic. Cracking pic by Mr. Bellas.

An unusually clean 70031 too, mid 60s steam locos were frequently filthy.

Looks like she had lost her nameplate(s) by this time too. I assume this was this common for the named Britannias at the time?

(only reason I ask at all is because this is obviously well before my time lol)

 

[Magdalia]

There’s several photos of them in ‘experimental blue livery’ online:

Indeed, both D5578 and D579 were popular with photographers at that time.

We have discussed blue paint shades before, and factors which lead to differences include :

- Deterioration of colour film/prints over 50 years.
- Different compositions of film (particularly Kodachrome compared to the rest)
- Particular propensity of blue pigment in paints to fade (hence why it was less commonly used than red or green)
- How the paint is manufactured/mixed/thinned
- What it is painted on top of (I think this one is key; it explains why so many diesels repainted BR blue took on a greenish tinge)
- How many coats
- Whether varnished

But these comments also apply to pictures of D5578.

 

[Taunton]

Looks like she had lost her nameplate(s) by this time too. I assume this was this common for the named Britannias at the time?

(only reason I ask at all is because this is obviously well before my time lol)

It was common generally; ex-GWR locos with cast brass numberplates would lose those to souvenir hunters as well (especially in the West Midlands, now LMR, and separated from Swindon), and would appear with just chalked numbers, likewise for smokebox numberplates. Quite a number of the names on smoke deflectors (like the Britannias) were redone in paint, including a coloured backing, by the local shed staff. I presume the works had given up casting replacements.

 

[32475]

This photo taken at Barrow Roundhouse in June ‘18. E3035 is the AC on the left showing small yellow warning panel and white cab roof. Somehow it looks much more striking compared to it’s AC stablemates even though they have more yellow.

 

[Strathclyder]

It was common generally; ex-GWR locos with cast brass numberplates would lose those to souvenir hunters as well (especially in the West Midlands, now LMR, and separated from Swindon), and would appear with just chalked numbers, likewise for smokebox numberplates. Quite a number of the names on smoke deflectors (like the Britannias) were redone in paint, including a coloured backing, by the local shed staff. I presume the works had given up casting replacements.

That computes, cheers for that.

 

[43096]

Obviously once all the AC locos went to Rail Blue, full yellow ends and final BR corporate identity, these items were just applied with white paint.


Electric hauled train at Euston, 1966, geograph 6436599 by Alan Murray Rust
Alan Murray Rust / Electric hauled train at Euston, 1966. Reproduced under Creative Commons 2.0 Attribution-ShareAlike licence.


85035 at Crewe
Tutenkhamun Sleeping, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons

The double arrows were cast on at least the 81-85s, were they not? Certainly that photo of 85035 looks like it. Not sure if the 86s were the same; if they were they were removed when nameplates were applied and logos became transfers on the cab side.

 

[Strathclyder]

The double arrows were cast on at least the 81-85s, were they not? Certainly that photo of 85035 looks like it. Not sure if the 86s were the same; if they were they were removed when nameplates were applied and logos became transfers on the cab side.

They were on at least some of the 86s as well, as this Bruce Galloway image of 86250 at Wolverhampton illustrates (dated 3rd July 1980). This proves your latter point in regards to the transfers on the cabsides replacing these cast double arrows when the class started gaining names.

86250 Wolverhampton

Willesden based 86250 waits to leave Wolverhampton with 1A57 1530 Wolverhampton to Euston on a sunny 3rd July 1980.

www.flickr.com

 

[SouthernR]

The double arrows were cast on at least the 81-85s, were they not? Certainly that photo of 85035 looks like it. Not sure if the 86s were the same; if they were they were removed when nameplates were applied and logos became transfers on the cab side.

A browse through a sample of photos with double arrows failed to find any 81-85s with painted (or transfers). Similarly, I didn't find any 86s definitely with painted double arrows, until they were moved to the cab-sides as stated above.