Absurd Rail Replacement arrangemts

[urbophile]

Which does perhaps beg the question of whether GBR might take a more ‘pragmatic’ approach in future and ‘just not bother’ with RRBs in areas such as London where there are plenty of stage carriage buses/ underground/ DLR/ tram/ alternative heavy rail routes ( or whatever) nearby.

We have a similar situation in Liverpool, where the Hunts Cross branch of Merseyrail is paralleled for most of its length with the frequent (albeit slower) 82 bus route. The only two stations it does not serve are Brunswick, where the 500 calls every 15 minutes, and Hunts Cross where a RRB as far as South Parkway would be undoubtedly useful. Ticket acceptance by the buses is an obvious solution.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just as well considering three consecutive all-line Purley-Gatwick closures are on the horizon and Metrobus Crawley are (nominally) currently down 40+ buses!

What work is being done that requires three weekends of all line blocks? I see that yet again the diverted trains will not make public stops at Horsham, despite reversing in the platform there. All Horsham and Arun Valley passengers heading to London will have to use the bus operation via East Grinstead.

Edit: On the Saturdays there are no local trains south of Dorking. Indeed the only way to get from Dorking to Horsham is by bus, despite the railway being open, and a half hourly train service running all day. One of the fastest journey options from Horsham to Victoria is to use the stopping bus to Dorking and then train from there. It will be interesting to see how many people take this option and whether GTR provides enough buses for the number of passengers.

 

[Edvid]

What work is being done that requires three weekends of all line blocks?

Works aplenty, as noted in another thread:

January 2026 BML all-line weekend closures (Croydon-Gatwick)

It piques my interest the BML between East Croydon/Purley & Gatwick Airport will be fully closed for two weekends - as opposed to one - in January 2026. 10-11 January 2026 17-18 January 2026 I'm aware an annual all-line possession is necessitated by Stoats Nest Jn parallel tamping, but what's...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Edsmith]

I have a relative who is a TFL bus driver, they say that often when they are put on RRB services it is with little notice and little directions. So often on the first day many drivers get lost or don't know the optimal route they are going as it is often leaving the territory they normally drive. I'd imagine it's similar outside of London

I've known numerous instances of drivers getting lost on RRB services and having to rely on passengers for directions.

 

[Taunton]

Which does perhaps beg the question of whether GBR might take a more ‘pragmatic’ approach in future and ‘just not bother’ with RRBs in areas such as London where there are plenty of stage carriage buses/ underground/ DLR/ tram/ alternative heavy rail routes ( or whatever) nearby.

Being actually on the DLR I can address this one, because the bus services have deliberately evolved over time not to serve the flows, often the main ones, where everyone now takes the DLR. So when it's not there that's a major issue. There may be plenty of buses apparently around, but none of them going in the direction of the suspended rail service.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've known numerous instances of drivers getting lost on RRB services and having to rely on passengers for directions.

Indeed, there's a crossroads near my local station and I've seen buses come from any of 4 directions, going in either direction.
There's a reason I never bother with rail replacements.

 

[Jaydubya]

There are so many other options within a short bus or bike ride away that I have never used a rail replacement bus in the 17 years I have lived in South and West London. Today I got the Windrush Line to Honor Oak Park and the P4 bus to the Herne Hill area. Even when rail replacement buses have gone to Denmark Hill the frequency is so poor that I have either walked or got the regular 68/468 bus up the hill.

 

[30907]

Surely today's Beckenham Junction to Denmark Hill RRB would be better going to Brixton and Victoria as the train would?

Possibly. G...maps says the quickest route to Victoria is via Denmark Hill. I very much doubt it would be a more attractive option than a no.3 bus at £1.75.
And from Penge you would just use Penge W anyway.

 

[BurtonM]

We have a similar situation in Liverpool, where the Hunts Cross branch of Merseyrail is paralleled for most of its length with the frequent (albeit slower) 82 bus route.

The Ashton line on Manchester Metrolink has the same issue. The last time they ran RRBs they were all empty, as the line is paralleled by the 216 bus.
The maximum fare on the bus is £2 so the Metrolink RRBs are redundant, as most Metrolink fares are higher.

 

[FOH]

There is very little effort put into route learning for any RRB drivers.

TfL and some other operators put up signs at junctions. National Express used to provide route guides and Go-Ahead produced some videos. There will also be maps for known road closures.

Otherwise, they rely on the vehicle operators to provide route training.

It is possible that Brixton is avoided as a destination for RRBs because of congestion and lack of layover space. It is why c2c RRBs do not ever go to Barking and serve Rainham from Upminster.

 

[zero]

The non-stop RRB from Hammersmith to Heathrow is preferable to the regular tube service.

Over 10 years ago I recall taking an RRB for the Overground, from outside Finchley Road station (for Frognal) to Gunnersbury/Chiswick Park. Because I lived opposite Finchley Road station, this bus was better than taking the tube via Green Park and also better than having to walk to Frognal or doing the West Hampstead interchange.

 

[Magdalen Road]

There’s RRB running from Cambridge North to Royston until 5th Jan. The journey planner suggest 40 mins for the journey, whilst that might be the case in off peak, it’ll be more like an hour in peak times. This turns a 1h15 trip from Ely to Kings Cross into 2h15-2h30. The additional hour each way, as well as getting to and from the station means once again I’ve booked off the period between Christmas and 5th Jan.
Another reason for not using RRB is that I get travel sick on buses and coaches, which I don’t on trains!

 

[Magdalia]

There’s RRB running from Cambridge North to Royston until 5th Jan. The journey planner suggest 40 mins for the journey, whilst that might be the case in off peak, it’ll be more like an hour in peak times. This turns a 1h15 trip from Ely to Kings Cross into 2h15-2h30. The additional hour each way, as well as getting to and from the station means once again I’ve booked off the period between Christmas and 5th Jan.
Another reason for not using RRB is that I get travel sick on buses and coaches, which I don’t on trains!

This may be grim but I wouldn't describe it as absurd. Royston and Cambridge North are both stations that have space to manage rail replacement bus services, and relatively good access to major roads. The rail replacement bus services were much more chaotic before Cambridge North opened and especially before the area out the front of Cambridge Hbf was redeveloped.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Ashton line on Manchester Metrolink has the same issue. The last time they ran RRBs they were all empty, as the line is paralleled by the 216 bus.
The maximum fare on the bus is £2 so the Metrolink RRBs are redundant, as most Metrolink fares are higher.

Depends where you're going on the Manchester Metrolink tram system. Anywhere between Ashton-under-Lyne and Central Manchester, the 216 bus is indeed likely to be the lowest cost option. For destinations elsewhere on the Metrolink network (such as Altrincham, Trafford Centre, Eccles etc.) Metrolink's zonal pricing is probably going to work out cheaper. And anyone heading into Manchester City centre can always get the train (from Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester Victoria) if needs be.

 

[talldave]

I've known numerous instances of drivers getting lost on RRB services and having to rely on passengers for directions.

Surely with all the technology available to us, some kind of maps overlay could be used to equip drivers with route and stop navigation?

For reference, I've never been on an RRB and would never undertake a journey requiring one. It's just a mental block! Plan an alternative route or don't travel is my approach.

 

[Timmyd]

A reminder as well that Denmark Hill is a big entry/exit point for the staff and patients of the two major hospitals next door - and this is the first time for some years that the two main routes in from the south (Denmark Hill and Loughborough Junction - as well as Herne Hill for some too) are both shut at the same time. So the bus terminating there has more practical use than it might initially seem.

(Edited to add patients - very remiss of me)

Agreed it’s a busy station but Denmark Hill is on a different line to the buses South Eastern is sending there, and Loughborough junction only has a few peak hour trains a day from it so it’s not like it’s a journey the people being inconvenienced ever do.

 

[RJ]

I drove a round trip on London Bridge to Bromley South this morning.

Biggest flow was London Bridge to Denmark Hill. Most other people picked up between Denmark Hill and Bellingham were going to Bromley South.

A few passengers picked up at Beckenham Junction going to Bromley South as well, despite there being a normal or even enhanced train service between these stations as well as a plethora of local bus services. The only logical explanation is that people would prefer to use a bus service that has no ticket checks than a train where fare collection may be enforced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2025 ==

Surely with all the technology available to us, some kind of maps overlay could be used to equip drivers with route and stop navigation?

For reference, I've never been on an RRB and would never undertake a journey requiring one. It's just a mental block! Plan an alternative route or don't travel is my approach.

That would probably have to be special software with support for waypoints, bus lanes and banned turns buses can use, and the ability to reroute via a safe route if the bus misses a turn or can’t follow the route for whatever reason.

London Bridge to Bromley South is difficult to map accurately because it features most of the above plus the route between most stations is intentionally circuitous to avoid width restrictions and unsuitable backroads.

Sometimes the satnavs lead the buses to grief, because the station postcodes supplied to the bus operator are for the station building which buses cannot get to instead of the designated bus stop for the station. Too many pitfalls for satnavs to be relied upon as anything more than an aid, though they have their place for very simple routes.

 

[Ellwill]

Southeastern replacement services are organised by Go-Ahead, and Thameslink replacement services are organised by Transport UK. Go-Ahead usually use their own buses, while Transport UK will use an array of bus operators, so it will be different drivers on these routes.

This last Sunday made a rather absurd sight on the Cambridge<>Royston RRBs: An Arriva bus drafted on by Transport UK to replace a Govia (Go-Ahead) train service... Three different cooks for one broth.

 

[Ian Hardy]

This last Sunday made a rather absurd sight on the Cambridge<>Royston RRBs: An Arriva bus drafted on by Transport UK to replace a Govia (Go-Ahead) train service... Three different cooks for one broth.

Go-Ahead London lost the GTR RRB contract to Transport UK. But as TUK doesn't have enough vehicles of their own to operate the RRB services, they subcontract out the gaps as did Go-Ahead before that. This happens with all RRB contracts, as it very unlikely that the contract holder will be able to operate all the services inhouse, so subcontracting some of the services is bound to occur especially if the contract holder doesn't local depots to the locations where the RRBs are required.

 

[MikeWM]

Is there any particular reason why rail replacement buses Ely<->Kings Lynn are now always run as two separate services, split at Downham Market? See this coming weekend for example. This seems to be a 'new' idea in the last couple of years or so, before that there would be one service running through, as is the norm elsewhere. But now instead of one irritating rail replacement bus, you now get to experience two, with a tedious change inbetween...

Or is this just an timetabling thing for some (incomprehensible) reason and it is actually turns out to be the same bus running both legs, with no need to switch between the two?

 

[Bungle965]

Or is this just an timetabling thing for some (incomprehensible) reason and it is actually turns out to be the same bus running both legs, with no need to switch between the two?

This wouldn't surprise me, used to happen quite a lot with GTR TOCs (especially overnight)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Or is this just an timetabling thing for some (incomprehensible) reason and it is actually turns out to be the same bus running both legs, with no need to switch between the two?

A means to suppress demand, so that a through Kings Lynn->Ely rail replacement bus journey appears not to show on journey planners? The TOC (= GTR?) doesn't need as many RRBs then!

 

[stadler]

They often advertise rail replacement buses as two services when it is actually one. It is very common for the 00:02 service from London Victoria to Eastbourne to be replaced between Haywards Heath and Eastbourne with a rail replacement bus in the late evening. But they stupidly always advertise it as two separate Haywards Heath to Lewes and Lewes to Eastbourne buses despite it always being the same bus vehicle going all the way. It is such a bad policy that just ends up confusing passengers who think they have to change at Lewes when they actually just stay on the same bus.

 

[Watershed]

Is there any particular reason why rail replacement buses Ely<->Kings Lynn are now always run as two separate services, split at Downham Market? See this coming weekend for example. This seems to be a 'new' idea in the last couple of years or so, before that there would be one service running through, as is the norm elsewhere. But now instead of one irritating rail replacement bus, you now get to experience two, with a tedious change inbetween...

Or is this just an timetabling thing for some (incomprehensible) reason and it is actually turns out to be the same bus running both legs, with no need to switch between the two?

It is done to maintain the fiction that it a string of separate local bus services (the threshold for which is 50km IIRC) which just so happen to be operated by the same vehicle. This way local buses (which don't have a tachograph) can be used, which is often preferable from the train company's perspective since these are usually fully accessible.

 

[david1212]

It is done to maintain the fiction that it a string of separate local bus services (the threshold for which is 50km IIRC) which just so happen to be operated by the same vehicle. This way local buses (which don't have a tachograph) can be used,

Please correct if fundamentally wrong but I believe there also are different less restrictive driving hours and rest rules for local buses against long distance PSV drivers.

which is often preferable from the train company's perspective since these are usually fully accessible.

Unless operated as 'closed door' I thought now all buses and coaches has to be accessible i.e. PSVAR compliant, a bus with a drop ramp and partial low floor of course is quicker than a wheelchair lift. The downside of a bus aside from comfort is limited luggage pens / racks.

 

[Watershed]

Please correct if fundamentally wrong but I believe there also are different less restrictive driving hours and rest rules for local buses against long distance PSV drivers.

Unless operated as 'closed door' I thought now all buses and coaches has to be accessible i.e. PSVAR compliant, a bus with a drop ramp and partial low floor of course is quicker than a wheelchair lift. The downside of a bus aside from comfort is limited luggage pens / racks.

All new coaches have to be accessible AFAIK, yes, but there is still a large fleet of older non-compliant coaches. These make up a large proportion of the cheap & cheerful coach for hire market that TOCs rely on.

 

[stadler]

Accessible coaches are still far less accessible than a low floor bus. Ideally rail replacement services should solely use low floor buses. An accessible coach still requires you to use the stairs unless you are a wheelchair user. The entrance stairs are steep and can be difficult for elderly people or those who have had operations on their legs or those who use a walking stick or have some other disability. Also some coach lifts can be very unreliable and fail to work meaning that a wheelchair user can not board. Lastly you have the issue that coaches can not take standing passengers meaning that people can be left behind on busy services. So a low floor bus is still the most ideal rail replacement vehicle.

 

[The Planner]

Also have to consider PSVAIR as well now. Coaches don't tend to have the ability to show stop info etc compared to service buses.

 

[JonathanH]

Accessible coaches are still far less accessible than a low floor bus. Ideally rail replacement services should solely use low floor buses. An accessible coach still requires you to use the stairs unless you are a wheelchair user. The entrance stairs are steep and can be difficult for elderly people or those who have had operations on their legs or those who use a walking stick or have some other disability. Also some coach lifts can be very unreliable and fail to work meaning that a wheelchair user can not board. Lastly you have the issue that coaches can not take standing passengers meaning that people can be left behind on busy services. So a low floor bus is still the most ideal rail replacement vehicle.

Clearly you have a reasonable point for local stopping journeys where a bus is reasonable.

For longer distance journeys using motorways, what you describe is a need for something that only really exists in the form of the Panther LE, that never really caught on as a new future for coach travel. I'm not sure standing passengers are desirable on replacement buses covering longer distance rail replacement.

 

[MP33]

Greater Anglia, have replacement buses from Chelmsford serve Billericay on another line and not Shenfield. The reasons being the size of the car parks and the road layout.