Absurd peak times / ghost peak trains

[All Line Rover]

I recently travelled with Virgin Trains on the 15:07 from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street. This is classed as a peak service.

Advance tickets cost a minimum of £104 on this service (no matter how far one books in advance) and an Anytime Single costs £150.50. I was expecting it to be quiet, but was amazed by just how quiet it was.

The train was a 9-car Pendolino (5 Standard Class and 4 First Class carriages), which isn't the longest train Virgin Trains operates. Nonetheless, even with the limited Standard Class accommodation available, Coach A (the Quiet Coach) had just 5 occupants. Five! There are 46 seats in Coach A, making that a capacity utilisation of 10%!

I decided to stroll through the rest of Standard Class. I counted approximately 70 occupants in total. No carriage had more than 20 occupants. There are 294 Standard Class seats on a 9-car Pendolino, making that a total capacity utilisation of less than 25%.

It is worth pointing out, for those who aren't aware, that Virgin Trains has an 'easement' allowing the use of off-peak tickets on peak trains when accompanied by a Railcard. When walking through Standard Class I noticed numerous families with children, and I'm sure there were others who were using Senior, Disabled and other Railcards. If Virgin Trains didn't have this 'easement', the train would have been even quieter!

Considering the occupancy in Standard Class was so low, I wonder if there was tumbleweed in the 4 First Class carriages?

This experience confirmed my belief that there is weak passenger demand between 3pm and 4pm; that it is not truly a 'peak' period. It is absurd that the final off-peak train from London to Liverpool is just after 2pm (14:07). In 2007, the 15:07 was an off-peak service. In earlier years, afternoon peak restrictions were even more lenient (not covering any part of the evening).

British Rail managed to run its intercity division profitably without these absurd restrictions. Why has the DfT allowed private train companies to implement restrictions that do not reflect reality?

Does anyone have examples of other 'peak' services that are anything but?

[I should qualify the above by saying that I travelled on a Monday, and I realise that the same service may well be busier on a Thursday and Friday. That does not, however, create a justification for having absurd peak restrictions Monday through Wednesday. I also realise that the 15:07 service would be busier if classified as off-peak and thus less pleasant to travel on for those who do purchase peak tickets. But, to use Philip Hammond's phrase, should these shoulder peak trains really be a 'rich man's toy'?]

 

[455driver]

Don't forget that Virgin trains are 'special' and are one of the worst money grabbing bunch of oops I mean most customer focused TOCs out there!

 

[Robson689]

A £12.50 advance ticket is available for services 2 months from today.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It is worth pointing out, for those who aren't aware, that Virgin Trains has an 'easement' allowing the use of off-peak tickets on peak trains when accompanied by a Railcard. When walking through Standard Class I noticed numerous families with children, and I'm sure there were others who were using Senior, Disabled and other Railcards. If Virgin Trains didn't have this 'easement', the train would have been even quieter!....

You'd be surprised by how many people don't know about the easement. and assume that it is peak even with a Railcard.

....This experience confirmed my belief that there is weak passenger demand between 3pm and 4pm; that it is not truly a 'peak' period....

Have you considered that it is so quiet because it is the first peak train? Have you traveled on the 1407? Or the 1440 (change at Crewe)?

....It is absurd that the final off-peak train from London to Liverpool is just after 2pm (14:07)....

The final direct one maybe, there are two further 'Off-Peak' connecting services before the Off-Peak restriction kicks in.

....Does anyone have examples of other 'peak' services that are anything but?....

Where there is a semi-frequent service (or connecting service) the first and last 'peak' trains will always appear to be quiet because no-one wants to pay peak time fares if they can avoid them.

You will probably find that when the 1507 was the last Off-Peak train, it was far more busy because no-one wanted to use the 1607, and people were probably saying the 1607 was hardly peak because "no-one uses it".

....[I should qualify the above by saying that I travelled on a Monday, and I realise that the same service may well be busier on a Thursday and Friday. That does not, however, create a justification for having absurd peak restrictions Monday through Wednesday. I also realise that the 15:07 service would be busier if classified as off-peak and thus less pleasant to travel on for those who do purchase peak tickets. But, to use Philip Hammond's phrase, should these shoulder peak trains really be a 'rich man's toy'?]

Would you rather a situation where a passenger is 'caught out' because the 1507 is 'Off-Peak' Monday to Wednesday, but 'Peak' on Thursday and Friday? People on this forum say ticketing is not simple enough, but I rather think that sort of restriction would only cause more confusion.

 

[yorkie]

Would you rather a situation where a passenger is 'caught out' because the 1507 is 'Off-Peak' Monday to Wednesday, but 'Peak' on Thursday and Friday? People on this forum say ticketing is not simple enough, but I rather think that sort of restriction would only cause more confusion.

I'd rather people like Shimbleshanks only got caught out on Mondays to Wednesdays, than be caught out 5 days a week

EC relax their evening peak restrictions on Fridays, and it would be sensible for Virgin & FGW to do likewise. I've never heard of anyone get caught out on a Monday-Thursday because of the Friday relaxations! People get caught out by all sorts of other things but that isn't one of them.

DfT are unhappy with the bonkers peak loadings on Virgin and have been for some time. A position was created a while back to try to even out the loadings, and Virgin demanded that the DfT foot the bill. Yet they've not really got much to show for it, other than the introduction of crazily complicated Super Duper Off Peak fares on certain flows.

Virgin are clever with their Railcard easements, but not so clever with the wording of the easements nor the lack of publicity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I've never heard of anyone get caught out on a Monday-Thursday because of the Friday relaxations! People get caught out by all sorts of other things but that isn't one of them....

The logical answer to that is that people either know it is relaxed on a Friday (and only pay the lower rate that day), or they pay too much without knowing because it isn't relaxed Monday to Thursday (and so wouldn't be 'caught out' in the same way). That is subtly different to it being cheaper most of the time, where it is more likely someone would pay less without realising it costs more and then discover the hard way that it isn't.

 

[tannedfrog]

I was under the impression there are no peak trains, only tickets which have peak restrictions on them.

Is there an Off Peak ticket valid on this service?

 

[Merseysider]

I was under the impression there are no peak trains, only tickets which have peak restrictions on them.

Is there an Off Peak ticket valid on this service?

Yes, 99% of tickets to Scotland and some places a similar distance North.

For example, in the afternoon peak, instead of buying an anytime £160 single EUS - MAN, buy a £130 off-peak single EUS - GLC there are of course, cheaper ways of doing it.

 

[All Line Rover]

Have you considered that it is so quiet because it is the first peak train? Have you traveled on the 1407? Or the 1440 (change at Crewe)?

...Where there is a semi-frequent service (or connecting service) the first and last 'peak' trains will always appear to be quiet because no-one wants to pay peak time fares if they can avoid them.

I knew someone would bring this up, so I refrained from creating this thread until I had travelled on a variety of afternoon Virgin Trains departures from Euston.

I have travelled on the 14:07 London to Liverpool. Once. It was around 75% full. Busy, but not packed by any means.

I have also travelled on the 16:07 London to Liverpool. Twice. Once it was an 11-car Pendolino, once it was a 9-car Pendolino. On the 9-car, I counted 18 people in Coach B (29% full) and 12 people in Coach C (25% full). For comparison, the 9-car 15:07 had 18 people in Coach B (29% full) and 9 people in Coach C (19% full). The 16:07 would appear to be little busier than the 15:07, which discredits the argument that the 15:07 is quiet simply because 'it is the first peak train'. It is quiet because it is not really a 'peak' train, but peak fares are being charged!

The 18:07 London to Liverpool is busy despite having high fares, which shows where the 'peak' really lies.

The final direct one maybe, there are two further 'Off-Peak' connecting services before the Off-Peak restriction kicks in.

So the final off-peak train from London to Liverpool is the 14:07. Yes? Few people seem to take non-direct trains, which is no surprise given the precariousness of connections thanks to Virgin's poor right-time performance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was under the impression there are no peak trains, only tickets which have peak restrictions on them.

Is there an Off Peak ticket valid on this service?

I was careful to say that the 15:07 London to Liverpool is classed as a peak service, not that it is a peak 'train'. That said, I can't think of a single destination for which off-peak tickets are valid that have itineraries involving travel on the 15:07.

The 15:10 London to Chester does have many destinations for which off-peak tickets are valid that have itineraries involving the 15:10. Off-peak tickets are valid to Milton Keynes, but not to Crewe or Chester, but then they're valid again to stations past Chester!

 

[Kite159]

Whoever decided that a 15:07 service would be a peak service? To me (and I bet if you ask several random people of the street what the evening peak is) the evening peak will be 16:30 to 19:00.

Madness.

 

[tannedfrog]

I was careful to say that the 15:07 London to Liverpool is classed as a peak service, not that it is a peak 'train'.

I agree that it's classed as a peak service by Virgin, the majority of guards and the majority of passengers. However from reading this forum I was under the impression that it is inaccurate to think of any train or service in this way.

 

[All Line Rover]

I mean that it is classed as a peak service for a journey from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street, but not that the train is itself 'peak'. I'm sorry if this was not made clear in my first paragraph.

 

[msussams]

I went on a 1730(ish) (weekday) - think Friday, train from London Euston to Manchester - it was nearly empty the whole journey, was amazed..

 

[yorkie]

Whoever decided that a 15:07 service would be a peak service? To me (and I bet if you ask several random people of the street what the evening peak is) the evening peak will be 16:30 to 19:00.

Madness.

It's a peak service for holders of tickets from London to direct destinations on this train (but not necessarily for ticket holders of other tickets) because Virgin Trains decided it would be, and they were able to make that decision because fares regulation (currently in the hands of the DfT) says they can.

 

[alexjames]

Dunno why people seem to be unaware that many or most Virgin WCML trains to and from Euston are thinly populated outside the "peak" times. This has been the case for many years and has been extremely obvious to this occasional observer for just as long.

Does rather damage the case for HS2 tho'. The proposal is to spend £40Bn or more to provide extra capacity in the peaks. If that was a valid argument, which it is not, it would justify the expansion of the Aston Expressway to ten lanes each way and the M3/M4 bit of the M25 to the same level. Both are completely silly notions so why do people reckon its sensible apropos HS2. FIIK either.

 

[RJ]

I was careful to say that the 15:07 London to Liverpool is classed as a peak service, not that it is a peak 'train'. That said, I can't think of a single destination for which off-peak tickets are valid that have itineraries involving travel on the 15:07.

I can think of three stations that can be used to circumvent peak time restrictions between Euston and Liverpool.

 

[Busaholic]

Doesn't all this rather show that Virgin must not be allowed to get their hands on the ECML?

 

[yorkie]

Does rather damage the case for HS2 tho'.....

I get what you are saying - it certainly doesn't help the case - but let's not get into another HS2 debate on this thread

 

[greatkingrat]

Doesn't all this rather show that Virgin must not be allowed to get their hands on the ECML?

The ECML isn't any better. Compare fares to Leeds and Liverpool

SVR EUS-LIV (not valid 1501-1844) 79.70

SVR KGX-LDS (not valid 1559-1745) 156.50
SSR KGX-LDS (not valid 1500-1858) 100.80

while the Off Peak Return is less restricted it is almost double the price. The Super Off Peak Return is more restricted and more expensive than Virgin.

 

[Merseysider]

The ECML isn't any better. Compare fares to Leeds and Liverpool

SVR EUS-LIV (not valid 1501-1844) 79.70

SVR KGX-LDS (not valid 1559-1745) 156.50
SSR KGX-LDS (not valid 1500-1858) 100.80

while the Off Peak Return is less restricted it is almost double the price. The Super Off Peak Return is more restricted and more expensive than Virgin.

Why are Leeds fares so disgustingly high? Both cities are ~200 miles from London so distance can't be a factor.

 

[All Line Rover]

The ECML isn't any better. Compare fares to Leeds and Liverpool

SVR EUS-LIV (not valid 1501-1844) 79.70

SVR KGX-LDS (not valid 1559-1745) 156.50
SSR KGX-LDS (not valid 1500-1858) 100.80

while the Off Peak Return is less restricted it is almost double the price. The Super Off Peak Return is more restricted and more expensive than Virgin.

The EC SSR is not more restrictive than the VT SVR in practice because the first evening off-peak service from London to Liverpool is the 19:07.

The £156.50 EC SVR is valid at times where the only available VT fare is a £301 SOR.

Off-peak fares are cheaper on West Coast but peak-time Advance fares are cheaper on the East Coast, and I created this thread specifically to discuss peak-time fares.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Virgin should also get rid of the morning peak pricing out of London as most of the trains I've used (to Glasgow, Chester, Liverpool & Manchester) have been largely empty until quite far north or when I got off (Warrington, Crewe, Liverpool, Stoke)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The EC SSR is not more restrictive than the VT SVR in practice because the first evening off-peak service from London to Liverpool is the 19:07....

Kings Cross-Leeds (SSR)

Last train before evening peak - 1435
First train after evening peak - 1903

Total time window - 4 hours 28 minutes

Euston-Liverpool (SVR)

Last train before evening peak - 1440 (one change of train)
First train after evening peak - 1907

Total time window - 4 hours 27 minutes

I'd say it is more restricted in practice, but not by much.

 

[Hadders]

Why are Leeds fares so disgustingly high? Both cities are ~200 miles from London so distance can't be a factor.

I believe British Rail increased fares on the ECML in the 1990's following electrification due to the improved speed, frequency and rolling stock.

I suspect the WCML would have had a similar increase had the APT been introduced.

 

[Haywain]

why are liverpool fares so disgustingly high? Both cities are ~200 miles from london so distance can't be a factor.

sor eus-liv £301.00

sor kgx-lds £249.00

 

[Metrailway]

I recently travelled with Virgin Trains on the 15:07 from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street. This is classed as a peak service.

Advance tickets cost a minimum of £104 on this service (no matter how far one books in advance) and an Anytime Single costs £150.50. I was expecting it to be quiet, but was amazed by just how quiet it was.

The train was a 9-car Pendolino (5 Standard Class and 4 First Class carriages), which isn't the longest train Virgin Trains operates. Nonetheless, even with the limited Standard Class accommodation available, Coach A (the Quiet Coach) had just 5 occupants. Five! There are 46 seats in Coach A, making that a capacity utilisation of 10%!

I decided to stroll through the rest of Standard Class. I counted approximately 70 occupants in total. No carriage had more than 20 occupants. There are 294 Standard Class seats on a 9-car Pendolino, making that a total capacity utilisation of less than 25%.

25% is not too bad. The load factor on morning Euston - Manchester and evening Manchester - Euston services even during the heart of peak hours are a lot less in my experience!

 

[Hadders]

The 0616 EUS-MAN departs Euston pretty empty. A reasonable number board at Milton Keynes but by the time it calls at Stoke on Trent (0745), Macclesfield (0802) and Stockport (0817) it's effectively a commuter train given the 0828 arrival time into Manchester.

In my experience this train is usually standing from Stoke and fully wedged by the time it gets to Stockport.

 

[radamfi]

Virgin have removed peak restrictions from the early trains from the West Midlands to Euston, so maybe they could do the same for early trains out of Euston.

 

[yorkie]

The ECML isn't any better. Compare fares to Leeds and Liverpool

SVR EUS-LIV (not valid 1501-1844) 79.70

SVR KGX-LDS (not valid 1559-1745) 156.50
SSR KGX-LDS (not valid 1500-1858) 100.80

while the Off Peak Return is less restricted it is almost double the price. The Super Off Peak Return is more restricted and more expensive than Virgin.

Or compare the return portion restrictions of Leeds & Liverpool to London (which is what most people will be doing). The return portion of the Leeds-London SVR is then valid throughout the evening peak.

So for a Leeds-London passenger who wishes to arrive around 1030 and depart around 1700, it's half the price of Liverpool-London.

It's a third of the price for someone doing likewise from Leeds, compared to Liverpool, but returning around 1830 from London on a Friday.