Absolutely terrified about fare evasion

[cr767055]

I wonder whether the staff member was a Revenue Protection Officer or just a member of station staff? RPOs have more legal rights (e.g. they can detain you if you don't provide your name and address after being required to for a lack of a ticket or failing to buy a ticket when required). They also look more like police officers than TOC staff

I definitely recommend buying a Railcard (e.g. the 16-25 Railcard, just £30 a year or £70 for three years). We have a Family & Friends Railcard - it makes adult tickets somehow cheaper by adding a child!

 

[Haywain]

They also look more like police officers than TOC staff

You haven’t met many of them, have you?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Apr 2022 ==

I definitely recommend buying a Railcard (e.g. the 16-25 Railcard, just £30 a year or £70 for three years). We have a Family & Friends Railcard - it makes adult tickets somehow cheaper by adding a child!

For the OP I’d strongly recommend not refunding tickets just because they haven’t been checked during the journey.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Here's the advice I normally give to people who ask for our advice in circumstances similar to yours:

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

You might want to include the following in your reply to the letter you have received:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

Do bear in mind that the train company will be able to access details of your ticketing accounts and look at your refund history so while you are not required to incriminate yourself further, if you have done this sort of thing before then it is better to be up front with them when you respond to their letter.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fares. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

There is nothing you can do until you receive the letter so the best thing you can do is to try and put it to the back of your mind and get on with your life. I would not contact the train company before the letter arrives but one thing to check is that as you are a student what address have you given them? If it is a term time address make sure you are able to get access to any post that might be delivered duringthe hilidays or when you move out.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply here and forum members will be happy to proof read.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for this - I mainly ask about career issues as I may go into teaching at some point, although it wouldn’t be the path I had planned, I’d hate to miss out on an opportunity or something for such a silly misjudgment/mistake. I’m really hoping that a settlement will be an option, and looking through the forums it looks like that is usually offered to people, I suppose it just depends on how I word my letter?

You can rest easy on this specific point. I know of at least one teacher whose career has not been damaged by their conviction for fare dodging, and I have seen enough of the process to get on to teacher training to know that while you may have to declare a conviction, then a one-off incident isn’t a problem: a pattern of offences showing persistent dishonesty could be a different matter. And my understanding is that the same applies for many (although not necessarily all) professions.

 

[Wethebest838]

Thanks for this - I mainly ask about career issues as I may go into teaching at some point, although it wouldn’t be the path I had planned, I’d hate to miss out on an opportunity or something for such a silly misjudgment/mistake.

Unless you’re a kingpin in a drug cartel, a homicide suspect or thumped the RPI then you’re fine. One instance of fare evasion won’t do anything to your career.

I will add as it’s helpful that IF convicted of RoRa offence then you will have to apply for a B2 visa to get into America. Not sure about other countries but America you will not be able to use their ESTA visa free program to get in as you will have a criminal record regardless if spent. They don’t recognise the rehabilitation act.

So, just to be mindful. Not relevant if you don’t travel but best to know.

 

[island]

I wonder whether the staff member was a Revenue Protection Officer or just a member of station staff? RPOs have more legal rights (e.g. they can detain you if you don't provide your name and address after being required to for a lack of a ticket or failing to buy a ticket when required). They also look more like police officers than TOC staff

Nothing whatsoever turns on this.

Unless you’re a kingpin in a drug cartel, a homicide suspect or thumped the RPI then you’re fine. One instance of fare evasion won’t do anything to your career.

I will add as it’s helpful that IF convicted of RoRa offence then you will have to apply for a B2 visa to get into America. Not sure about other countries but America you will not be able to use their ESTA visa free program to get in as you will have a criminal record regardless if spent.

This is incorrect. A conviction for fare evasion is not a "crime involving moral turpitude" and does not disqualify someone from the ESTA scheme.

 

[Wethebest838]

This is incorrect. A conviction for fare evasion is not a "crime involving moral turpitude" and does not disqualify someone from the ESTA scheme.

Really? If you have been prosecuted it is seen as ‘fraud’ and is a crime involving moral turpitude? That’s the impression I’m under.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? If you have been prosecuted it is seen as ‘fraud’ and is a crime involving moral turpitude? That’s the impression I’m under.

Unlock give that impression, yes. https://unlock.org.uk/advice/identi...ce-is-a-crime-involving-moral-turpitude-cimt/

Incredibly, assaulting a police officer might not be a disqualifier but evading a fare is.

 

[Green1746]

Thank you all for the advice so far. I have read all the messages posted, however I won’t be reading this thread now until my letter arrives as I need to fully focus on my studies. I’ll update you all when I receive my letter, and will post a draft here (however I might post a draft later on today if that would be ok, so that it’s ready for when the letter arrives). Really appreciate all the responses

 

[Wethebest838]

Unlock give that impression, yes. https://unlock.org.uk/advice/identi...ce-is-a-crime-involving-moral-turpitude-cimt/

Incredibly, assaulting a police officer might not be a disqualifier but evading a fare is.

My fav one is you can kidnap someone but be let in but if you evade a train then that’s disqualifies you?

Americans..

 

[island]

Really? If you have been prosecuted it is seen as ‘fraud’ and is a crime involving moral turpitude? That’s the impression I’m under.

Unlock give that impression, yes. https://unlock.org.uk/advice/identi...ce-is-a-crime-involving-moral-turpitude-cimt/

Incredibly, assaulting a police officer might not be a disqualifier but evading a fare is.

I don't agree with that interpretation. Fraud means fraud – such as Fraud by abuse of position or fraud by false representation.

 

[Wethebest838]

I don't agree with that interpretation. Fraud means fraud – such as Fraud by abuse of position or fraud by false representation.

Upon researching, it’s a grey area. Some say yes and some say no. I always thought fare evasion was classed under fraud.

It’s huge if you’re right and I kinda think you could be right.

 

[island]

For the avoidance of doubt I am definitely not an immigration adviser and anyone wanting immigration advice should find someone who is

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't agree with that interpretation. Fraud means fraud – such as Fraud by abuse of position or fraud by false representation.

I would also be surprised if the Americans though RoRA was a crime of moral turpitude. But nonetheless we are likely never to find out anyway, as the Americans will only find out about a person's criminal past if they are detailed at the border for other reasons and require significant digging.

 

[Wethebest838]

For the avoidance of doubt I am definitely not an immigration adviser and anyone wanting immigration advice should find someone who is

It’s something that is interesting to know. To be fair, I’m not too so best ask the embassy lol

 

[Cdd89]

But nonetheless we are likely never to find out anyway, as the Americans will only find out about a person's criminal past if they are detailed at the border for other reasons and require significant digging.

Or if they apply for GlobalEntry, in which case a U.K. background check is a requirement.

 

[Green1746]

Please see below my draft letter. I haven’t heard from Northern yet, I’m just simply preparing the draft now so I can promptly reply to them. I would appreciate any feedback, or if I should add/remove any details. Thanks

Dear Sir or Madam,

Firstly I would like to give my most sincere apology for the incident that took place on Wednesday 20th April 2022. I boarded the train at __,TIME, to travel tO __, TIME, to meet some friends in town. I made the silly mistake of having a refunded ticket, therefore I did not have a valid ticket on the train. I checked the Trainline app and unfortunately there was no way to undo the refund, or to buy a new ticket on the train as it had already departed. The train fare amounted to £2.30

Upon arriving at ____ station, I informed the tickets lady of my error, and asked if there was a way to undo the refund or to pay for my fare. I was told to wait for a letter from yourselves. I apologised to the lady for making such a mistake, and gave all the required details that were asked for.

I am so ashamed and embarrassed about this, as I have never broken the law in my life, and I now fully understand the seriousness and severity of my actions. I am absolutely petrified about the possibility of court, and I wish to offer once again my most sincere apologies and reassurance this will not happen again.

I realise that what I have done was terribly naive, and would like to confirm that this was a one-off mistake. Please also take a look at my record to see that I have not done this before. I have only ever made two other refunds, as both of which were cancelled services on Wednesday 16th March and Friday 25th March via ____ to_____.

Please allow me to pay for the unpaid train fare, as well as any administrative costs Northern may have incurred from the incident.

Thank you very much for your time

Yours faithfully,
____

 

[skyhigh]

I made the silly mistake of having a refunded ticket, therefore I did not have a valid ticket on the train. I checked the Trainline app and unfortunately there was no way to undo the refund, or to buy a new ticket on the train as it had already departed. The train fare amounted to £2.30

Don't say this - from your original post it's clear you didn't try and resolve the problem while on the train, you waited until you got off and if nobody was there you wouldn't have done anything to rectify your actions.

Upon arriving at ____ station, I informed the tickets lady of my error, and asked if there was a way to undo the refund or to pay for my fare. I was told to wait for a letter from yourselves. I apologised to the lady for making such a mistake, and gave all the required details that were asked for.

And as a general point it wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate action. You need to accept responsibility.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is better to frame this sort of deliberate act as "an error of judgment", which reads much better and more truthfully than "a mistake".

 

[Green1746]

Thank you both I’ll make some amendments, apart from that does it read ok? Is it too long or a good length for a reply? I wasn’t really sure how many words to aim for etc

 

[Green1746]

Hi all, got my letter today. Absolutely terrified about it - does the above letter (with the amendments mentioned from others) read ok?

Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all, got my letter today. Absolutely terrified about it - does the above letter (with the amendments mentioned from others) read ok?

Thanks

I think that you can go with that. The important messages to get across are that you won't fare-dodge again, and you will pay the fare you should have paid plus the costs the railway has incurred. Your letter does that, so send it off.

If you are lucky, the railway will offer an out of court settlement. If you're not, they will take you to court. Either way, the next thing that happens after your reply is that they write to you again. So keep an eye out for their next letter.

 

[Green1746]

I think that you can go with that. The important messages to get across are that you won't fare-dodge again, and you will pay the fare you should have paid plus the costs the railway has incurred. Your letter does that, so send it off.

If you are lucky, the railway will offer an out of court settlement. If you're not, they will take you to court. Either way, the next thing that happens after your reply is that they write to you again. So keep an eye out for their next letter.

Thank you for this, I’m hoping that they will allow an out of court settlement, fingers crossed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2022 ==

Hi all, just read the letter again. It provides an email address to respond to as well as a free post address. Which one should I go for? Would email be better as then I can prove I’ve sent a reply before the 14 day limit? Which option do people generally pick?

Thanks

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this, I’m hoping that they will allow an out of court settlement, fingers crossed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2022 ==

Hi all, just read the letter again. It provides an email address to respond to as well as a free post address. Which one should I go for? Would email be better as then I can prove I’ve sent a reply before the 14 day limit? Which option do people generally pick?

Thanks

No harm in using both I suspect (you can always put on the e-mail that a hard copy has also been submitted by post using the address provided) - as you say the e-mail 'date stamp' is of help to you.

Good luck - I do think you have every chance of reaching a settlement, but I am sure there would be more help and advice for you here if needed as things progress.

 

[Green1746]

No harm in using both I suspect (you can always put on the e-mail that a hard copy has also been submitted by post using the address provided) - as you say the e-mail 'date stamp' is of help to you.

Good luck - I do think you have every chance of reaching a settlement, but I am sure there would be more help and advice for you here if needed as things progress.

Thank you for the reassurance, and I’ll send an email version too like you mention

Do you think the above response to their letter reads ok? (Including the changes made by others)

Thanks!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the reassurance, and I’ll send an email version too like you mention

Do you think the above response to their letter reads ok? (Including the changes made by others)

Thanks!

Yes, others suggestions were helpful and I think you have made your points in an honest and genuine way. Best of luck with it.

 

[Green1746]

Yes, others suggestions were helpful and I think you have made your points in an honest and genuine way. Best of luck with it.

Thank you very much, I will keep you all informed of the outcome.

 

[Hadders]

Personally I would send a letter in the post but use the ‘Signed For’ service (not special delivery as this is much more expensive).

Some companies only accept emails if it’s a scanned copy of the letter.

 

[Green1746]

Personally I would send a letter in the post but use the ‘Signed For’ service (not special delivery as this is much more expensive).

Some companies only accept emails if it’s a scanned copy of the letter.

I sent the letter first class signed for to make sure it gets there asap. Might it be worth calling them in a weeks time or so to check they received my response?

Thank you

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I sent the letter first class signed for to make sure it gets there asap. Might it be worth calling them in a weeks time or so to check they received my response?

Thank you

Probably easier to check the Royal Mail website (https://www.royalmail.com/track-your-item) to make sure that it's been delivered. If the railway then act as if they haven't had your response, you can point out when they accepted delivery of it.