Abolish Gatwick Express?

[popeter45]

It seems that the Gatwick Express is still suspended and has been since March. Can't imagine it returning in the foreseeable.

Was the stock dedicated and is it being used elsewhere or in storage?

Same with crew, I believe the Gatwick express drivers, hosts , station staff are dedicated to GX services so what's happening with them?

There being used for other southern Brighton mainline services, taken then from both Victoria and London bridge to Croydon in the past few months

 

[Kite159]

It seems that the Gatwick Express is still suspended and has been since March. Can't imagine it returning in the foreseeable.

Was the stock dedicated and is it being used elsewhere or in storage?

Same with crew, I believe the Gatwick express drivers, hosts , station staff are dedicated to GX services so what's happening with them?

The Gatwick Express branded stock is in use for Southern branded London - Brighton services and some services from Brighton towards Hastings/Ore.

As for the staff, I would imagine they will be on the Southern services

 

[Tio Terry]

I would think it's a purely commercial decision. Is the service a money maker or not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The stock is being used on Southern express services.

If GatEx did go, I'd suggest just sticking "Southern Express" branding on it and using it for say Brighton fasts.

 

[JonathanH]

If GatEx did go, I'd suggest just sticking "Southern Express" branding on it and using it for say Brighton fasts.

Those Brighton fasts marketed as 'Southern Express' might stop only at Gatwick Airport and Brighton and be largely operated from a base at Stewarts Lane and Hove Yard.

 

[Aictos]

The stock is being used on Southern express services.

If GatEx did go, I'd suggest just sticking "Southern Express" branding on it and using it for say Brighton fasts.

Didn't they do that with the 442s before they went, they had Gatwick Express on the sides but took the decision to remove Gatwick so it just had Express on the side as they were extending Gatwick Express services to Brighton

One question for those familiar with train planning but at the moment the GatEx services are currently not running, how's the reliability of the Brighton Mainline without those trains running? If it's line reliability has improved then why restart the GatEx again, why not use the removal of the GatEx on a permanent basis to improve the line reliability even more?

I just think that the GatEx is life expired and there are other alternatives that people use such as Southern and Thameslink which is a far better use of line capacity.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The stock is being used on Southern express services.

If GatEx did go, I'd suggest just sticking "Southern Express" branding on it and using it for say Brighton fasts.

I would just repaint them so that they looked identical to the 377/6s but a coach less. It allows more flexibility. If the Gatwick Express is to be abolished I see no reason for an “Express” brand to remain.

 

[Aictos]

I would just repaint them so that they looked identical to the 377/6s but a coach less. It allows more flexibility. If the Gatwick Express is to be abolished I see no reason for an “Express” brand to remain.

The only difference and I await to be corrected on this but the only difference between the Class 387/2s, 377/6s and 377/7s is the latter two have 5 coaches other then that the interiors are very similar.

Personally they should retire the Gatwick Express brand and just rebrand the ex Gatwick Express operation as just Southern with the Class 387/2s in a common pool so can turn up on Victoria to Brighton via Gatwick but also Victoria to Portsmouth etc

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The only difference and I await to be corrected on this but the only difference between the Class 387/2s, 377/6s and 377/7s is the latter two have 5 coaches other then that the interiors are very similar.

Personally they should retire the Gatwick Express brand and just rebrand the ex Gatwick Express operation as just Southern with the Class 387/2s in a common pool so can turn up on Victoria to Brighton via Gatwick but also Victoria to Portsmouth etc

Yes, this is exactly what I have said

 

[Kite159]

Didn't they do that with the 442s before they went, they had Gatwick Express on the sides but took the decision to remove Gatwick so it just had Express on the side as they were extending Gatwick Express services to Brighton

One question for those familiar with train planning but at the moment the GatEx services are currently not running, how's the reliability of the Brighton Mainline without those trains running? If it's line reliability has improved then why restart the GatEx again, why not use the removal of the GatEx on a permanent basis to improve the line reliability even more?

I just think that the GatEx is life expired and there are other alternatives that people use such as Southern and Thameslink which is a far better use of line capacity.

The only ones not running as the Gatwick terminators which were planned not to run due to the rebuilding works at Gatwick station.

The half hourly Gatwick Express branded Brighton services are just Southern branded and call at Croydon & Haywards Heath (plus some other stations at peak times).

In my eyes it would be better to run them as Victoria - Clapham - Gatwick - Haywards - Brighton, more connections available at Clapham and removes the Croydon commuters.

"Personally they should retire the Gatwick Express brand and just rebrand the ex Gatwick Express operation as just Southern with the Class 387/2s in a common pool so can turn up on Victoria to Brighton via Gatwick but also Victoria to Portsmouth etc"

Keep in a common pool, but focused on Brighton - Southampton/Portsmouth & Brighton - Hastings/Ore services, as those don't divert/join along the route (remember Victoria - South Coast services divide at Horsham)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I predict that railways will recover far quicker than the aviation industry, so the demand for capacity won't be for airports all that much.
GatEx much like HEx (and to a lesser extent StanEx) seem to rely on uninformed people paying the premium fares because they think that's the only option. With that market disappearing there doesn't seem to be a place for dedicated airport expresses any longer. The good news coming out of all this is that all of a sudden you've gained 4 paths per hour that you can use for services carrying more than fresh air.

 

[bramling]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I predict that railways will recover far quicker than the aviation industry, so the demand for capacity won't be for airports all that much.
GatEx much like HEx (and to a lesser extent StanEx) seem to rely on uninformed people paying the premium fares because they think that's the only option. With that market disappearing there doesn't seem to be a place for dedicated airport expresses any longer. The good news coming out of all this is that all of a sudden you've gained 4 paths per hour that you can use for services carrying more than fresh air.

Another vote here for getting rid of it, and repurposing any paths freed up.

The main benefit of GE would be to segregate airport passengers off other south coast services, however this hasn’t happened in practice for as long as can be remembered, due to cheaper fares on non-GE services, and the fact that other services serve other destinations which are more useful than Victoria.

Given the above reality, I see no point in running the airport services which simply aren’t a good use of paths.

I would add a rider that I’ve no idea what, if anything, could be done with the paths. Presumably south of Gatwick options are limited by the two-track section south of Three Bridges. The Gatwick to Bedford ThamesLink trains don’t seem to contribute much either, at least off-peak, I can well see why Reigate is being explored as an alternative for these.

 

[Aictos]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I predict that railways will recover far quicker than the aviation industry, so the demand for capacity won't be for airports all that much.
GatEx much like HEx (and to a lesser extent StanEx) seem to rely on uninformed people paying the premium fares because they think that's the only option. With that market disappearing there doesn't seem to be a place for dedicated airport expresses any longer. The good news coming out of all this is that all of a sudden you've gained 4 paths per hour that you can use for services carrying more than fresh air.

However with the 4 paths being freed up, would it not be a better use to not use them at all but use the space freed up to ensure the reliability of the Brighton Mainline is improved?

Yes that might not seem useful but if it means improving the reliability of the line then surely that is important?

However if the 4 paths do have to be used then I agree they should be used to carry more then fresh air, maybe reintroduce the South Eastern London Bridge to Tonbridge service via Redhill or have a all day Bedford to East Grinstead service instead of just in the peaks. Anything that would see more use then carrying fresh air.

 

[JonathanH]

I would add a rider that I’ve no idea what, if anything, could be done with the paths. Presumably south of Gatwick options are limited by the two-track section south of Three Bridges. The Gatwick to Bedford ThamesLink trains don’t seem to contribute much either, at least off-peak, I can well see why Reigate is being explored as an alternative for these.

Reigate would only ever be a swap for the Gatwick to Bedford services and it isn't yet funded so won't be happening in the near future. Something has to serve Earlswood, Salfords and Horley.

Another vote here for getting rid of it, and repurposing any paths freed up.

Running an express train to Brighton consumes paths south of Three Bridges but appears to be justified by the demand. I'm not sure much is freed up by removing Gatwick Express north of Gatwick Airport apart from making the service a bit less congested because most of the potential destinations involve running south of Three Bridges.

 

[bramling]

Reigate would only ever be a swap for the Gatwick to Bedford services and it isn't yet funded so won't be happening in the near future. Something has to serve Earlswood, Salfords and Horley.


Running an express train to Brighton consumes paths south of Three Bridges but appears to be justified by the demand. I'm not sure much is freed up by removing Gatwick Express north of Gatwick Airport apart from making the service a bit less congested because most of the potential destinations involve running south of Three Bridges.

This is what I was thinking, when one looks at it there’s nothing very obvious which sticks out as a repurposing of the paths. There’s no need for a further Gatwick-Thameslink service as the Gatwick-Bedfords are already fairly empty.

In an ideal world the objective should be to keep GE and try to funnel as many people as possible into using it, as a way of relieving other services. However I can’t see the premium fares ever being ditched, hence why I can’t see the point in bothering with GE as it is currently.

As regards Reigate, presumably the Horsham to Peterborough service would pick up the three calls between Redhill and Gatwick? There’s certainly capacity off-peak to do that, no idea about at peak times though?

 

[JonathanH]

As regards Reigate, presumably the Horsham to Peterborough service would pick up the three calls between Redhill and Gatwick? There’s certainly capacity off-peak to do that, no idea about at peak times though?

Turnaround time at Horsham would be too tight for a reliable service if the stops went in the Peterborough service. It is more likely that the stops would go in a diversion of the Victoria service.

In an ideal world the objective should be to keep GE and try to funnel as many people as possible into using it, as a way of relieving other services. However I can’t see the premium fares ever being ditched.

No, although it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the DfT to increase all the fares to something in between the Gatwick Express and Any Permitted rates. The other fares are slightly surpressed relative to what could be charged, particularly with fares reform on the agenda.

 

[bramling]

Turnaround time at Horsham would be too tight for a reliable service if the stops went in the Peterborough service. It is more likely that the stops would go in a diversion of the Victoria service.

No, although it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for the DfT to increase all the fares to something in between the Gatwick Express and Any Permitted rates. The other fares are slightly surpressed relative to what could be charged, particularly with fares reform on the agenda.

Is there enough platform space at Horsham to insert an extra unit into the train plan (I realise with the shortage of 700/1s that isn’t easy in itself)? The Dorking services could presumably reverse via the sidings if necessary in order to give TL exclusive use of platforms 1 and 4? Not ideal by any means though.

 

[Minstral25]

Another vote here for getting rid of it, and repurposing any paths freed up.

I would add a rider that I’ve no idea what, if anything, could be done with the paths. Presumably south of Gatwick options are limited by the two-track section south of Three Bridges. The Gatwick to Bedford ThamesLink trains don’t seem to contribute much either, at least off-peak, I can well see why Reigate is being explored as an alternative for these.

However if the 4 paths do have to be used then I agree they should be used to carry more then fresh air, maybe reintroduce the South Eastern London Bridge to Tonbridge service via Redhill or have a all day Bedford to East Grinstead service instead of just in the peaks. Anything that would see more use then carrying fresh air.

This is what I was thinking, when one looks at it there’s nothing very obvious which sticks out as a repurposing of the paths. There’s no need for a further Gatwick-Thameslink service as the Gatwick-Bedfords are already fairly empty.

As regards Reigate, presumably the Horsham to Peterborough service would pick up the three calls between Redhill and Gatwick? There’s certainly capacity off-peak to do that, no idea about at peak times though?

Agree with repurposing the Gatwick Express services - the key issue is that they do not help the services calling at intermediate stations, so replacement with a service calling at intermediate stations Clapham Junction and East Croydon then extended past Gatwick to Brighton or South Coast would make more sense.

London Bridge to Tonbridge via Redhill is not really sensible - there are very few through passengers even in the peak as it is faster to Tonbridge on the direct route (34 minutes is almost faster than you'll get to Redhill alone), so it can only be for intermediate stations which have less than 1,500 passengers a day between the lot of them and many are school kids going to Tonbridge school. It would not be a good use of paths.

The Bedford to Gatwick trains are not really aimed at Gatwick south of London Bridge but provide services from London to Purley, Redhill and local stations. Pre-Covid they were packed during the peak needing a 12 coach service and still had a reasonable level of passengers during the rest of the day. They are anything but "fairly empty".

The reason for the Divert to Reigate (after platform 3 built) other than giving a much needed London Bridge Service from Reigate, is to reduce the need for one 700/1 on the Bedford - Gatwick route. Yes the Peterborough can pick up the extra stops to Gatwick but is more likely to remain the same and the Victoria to Reigate service will be diverted at Redhill to call at intermediate stations to Gatwick and probably extend to Three Bridges at least and hopefully Haywards Heath. Sadly restrictions in platform space at Brighton will restrict any further South. This diversion of Victoria to Redhill service will also allow longer 8 car trains to operate in the London section all day relieving overcrowding on these trains off-peak. (Vic to Rei are limited to 4 coaches)

In any case Bedford to Gatwick are not diverting any time soon as we still await approval of platform 3 at Reigate which is unlikely in the current levelling up agenda as we are in the South East.

 

[davetheguard]

Another vote here for getting rid of it, and repurposing any paths freed up.

A vote from me too, with the additional side benefit of getting rid of the GE fares, and being a first stage towards a long due simplification of Gatwick to London price structure. When first introduced by B.R., the higher price brought you a ride in an air conditioned Mk 2 Inter City coach; the cheaper fare a trip in a slam door Mk 1 style EMU. In short, many people thought it worth while paying the extra for.

But now, you get to ride in a virtually identical Electrostar EMU on either service, with one of the few visable differences being the colour of the train & seat colour: ironing boards all round! It's passed its sell by date, no longer required.

 

[cle]

And from me. It's egregious when hundreds of millions are being discussed in regards to Windmill, that these paths exist and are so underused.

Everything out of Victoria (fast) should call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. Yes people use these trains for short hops, but even Gatwick is only 30-35 mins, and frankly at a high enough frequency, it's all spread out well enough. As I mentioned on another thread, stations with integrated 'normal' airport services like Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Zurich (vs. special dedicated trains) work due to good frequencies.

Of the four paths:
2tph as today: Vic - CJ - EC - Gatwick - HH - Brighton.
2tph could run: Vic - CJ - EC - Redhill - all stations to Gatwick and Three Bridges. This would restore the fast Redhill service and serve the intermediate stops which it sounds like the Reigate might displace. This fast Redhill could be the service to connect with the Tonbridge too.

If that isn't possible, same but 2tph to Hove. They can alternate Three Bridges and Haywards Heath stops, with Burgess Hill in peaks. Make the whole core/spine high frequency and 12 car throughout.

Fast forward - if Windmill is on the backburner like many capital projects will be, an audit of paths and short-forming will have to happen. It may be that more services can terminate at Gatwick, Three Bridges or Purley from the south. Especially as there is already the Victoria/LB split.

 

[markymark2000]

My opinion on this is that GatEx should be scrapped and paths put to better use for Southern. Even if some services have to pass Clapham Junction non stop, that then puts it in a similar situation to South Western Railway and it just means people who want Clapham have to be a bit more cautious and check that the train stops there. Even if the service is kept as a non stop Gatwick to Victoria service, there is no reason for the price premium here as it is basically a tourist scam. The majority know that the service is not worth it and so all the GatEx actually does is push more people onto the regional services who don't want/need to be on there.
I suppose another way of looking at it would be, if GatEx wasn't around yet, would you be suggesting it? The answer is pretty much a 'No', you wouldn't suggest it because it would be so detrimental to the many existing users who are then forced to crowd in a few trains while few higher paid toffs and tourists caught by the scam, can travel basically in their own carriage.

I think the issue with scrapping it is the Govt know they make more money on it so it helps to subsidise the rest of the network and while it has it's down sides, money talks and if Govt officials can get to Gatwick away from the 'riff raff' and it makes the Govt money.... Why scrap it? It makes no sense to lose money and upset colleagues.

 

[JonathanH]

A vote from me too, with the additional side benefit of getting rid of the GE fares, and being a first stage towards a long due simplification of Gatwick to London price structure. When first introduced by B.R., the higher price brought you a ride in an air conditioned Mk 2 Inter City coach; the cheaper fare a trip in a slam door Mk 1 style EMU. In short, many people thought it worth while paying the extra for.

How would this 'long-due simplification' of the Gatwick to London price structure work? An increase for everyone except those already paying the Gatwick Express premium? Who is that good for? I think the DfT would probably feel that there is some scope for Gatwick fares to be rebased higher.

Even if the service is kept as a non stop Gatwick to Victoria service, there is no reason for the price premium here as it is basically a tourist scam. The majority know that the service is not worth it and so all the GatEx actually does is push more people onto the regional services who don't want/need to be on there.

Ever since it has been extended to Brighton, it really isn't like that. It is just the Brighton fast.

I suppose another way of looking at it would be, if GatEx wasn't around yet, would you be suggesting it? The answer is pretty much a 'No', you wouldn't suggest it because it would be so detrimental to the many existing users who are then forced to crowd in a few trains while few higher paid toffs and tourists caught by the scam, can travel basically in their own carriage.

Really?

There seem to be advocates on here to do the opposite with the services to Manchester Airport such that the current services no longer run through and a dedicated Airport shuttle runs instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There seem to be advocates on here to do the opposite with the services to Manchester Airport such that the current services no longer run through and a dedicated Airport shuttle runs instead.

That's a very different situation - Manchester Airport is at the end of (well, off to one side of) the 2 track Styal Line, which has 4 urban stations that are seriously underserved (Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green). Most of the proposals you get on here to separate it off involve removing express services through from afar and replacing it with a separate Merseyrail style 4 or 6tph all stations service, which would serve both as an airport service and a local service, rather like Crossrail to Heathrow or Heathrow Connect before it.

It's not really comparable with the Brighton Mainline, or GatEx, because Victoria is a dead end.

What is comparable, though, is that both proposals sacrifice the present Airport service in favour of serving the locality better.

 

[markymark2000]

Ever since it has been extended to Brighton, it really isn't like that. It is just the Brighton fast.

It kind of is since people still pay the premium price for Brighton to Victoria because they have used the GatEx service. By scrapping GatEx as a whole, you make the price no different and then people may stay on the train to Victoria rather than changing at Gatwick or waiting for a normal train which, at minimal extra time, could more than half their train fare.

Really?

There seem to be advocates on here to do the opposite with the services to Manchester Airport such that the current services no longer run through and a dedicated Airport shuttle runs instead.

I disagree with that side of it as well to be fair. I support some of the longer distance trains as long as capacity is there as there isn't the capacity to terminate so many trains at Piccadilly 13 or make them all run through to Stockport. Generally the arguments come from occasional travellers saying things such as 'we need an hourly train from the Airport to my little village of 30 people and if that train isn't there, we will be forever isolated and unable to live a proper life' (Slight exaggeration).

Anyway, I digress.

 

[JonathanH]

It kind of is since people still pay the premium price for Brighton to Victoria because they have used the GatEx service. By scrapping GatEx as a whole, you make the price no different and then people may stay on the train to Victoria rather than changing at Gatwick or waiting for a normal train which, at minimal extra time, could more than half their train fare.

It seems very likely that the DfT will make a move on aligning fares which will remove some of the anti-Gatwick Express sentiment.

There is not an explicit premium for using Gatwick Express from Brighton (other than the non-availability of advance fares and the fact that there remain 'Thameslink only' fares which were intended to be removed five years ago).

 

[markymark2000]

It seems very likely that the DfT will make a move on aligning fares which will remove some of the anti-Gatwick Express sentiment.

There is not an explicit premium for using Gatwick Express from Brighton (other than the non-availability of advance fares and the fact that there remain 'Thameslink only' fares which were intended to be removed five years ago).

I thought Brighton to Victoria costs more using Gatwick Express because the readers at Victoria charge you a Gatwick Express premium. If you were to change at Gatwick onto a southern service using a Southern platform, you end up paying less because you go through a Southern ticket barrier, not GatEx

 

[JonathanH]

I thought Brighton to Victoria costs more using Gatwick Express because the readers at Victoria charge you a Gatwick Express premium. If you were to change at Gatwick onto a southern service using a Southern platform, you end up paying less because you go through a Southern ticket barrier, not GatEx

Oyster / Contactless does not extend south of Gatwick Airport so the readers at Victoria platform 13/14 are irrelevant for passengers from Brighton.

As it happens, the readers at platform 13/14 only charge a premium for journeys which start at Gatwick. If you were to travel Redhill - Gatwick - Victoria and touch out on the 13/14 barriers you will be charged the standard fare from Redhill to Victoria with no premium.

As I noted, there is no extra fare for using Gatwick Express from Brighton.

 

[markymark2000]

Oyster / Contactless does not extend south of Gatwick Airport so the readers at Victoria platform 13/14 are irrelevant for passengers from Brighton.

As it happens, the readers at platform 13/14 only charge a premium for journeys which start at Gatwick. If you were to travel Redhill - Gatwick - Victoria and touch out on the 13/14 barriers you will be charged the standard fare from Redhill to Victoria with no premium.

As I noted, there is no extra fare for using Gatwick Express from Brighton.

Ahh, fair. Just a Gatwick scam supported by the taxpayer haha.

 

[Minstral25]

How would this 'long-due simplification' of the Gatwick to London price structure work? An increase for everyone except those already paying the Gatwick Express premium? Who is that good for? I think the DfT would probably feel that there is some scope for Gatwick fares to be rebased higher.


Ever since it has been extended to Brighton, it really isn't like that. It is just the Brighton fast.

It seems very likely that the DfT will make a move on aligning fares which will remove some of the anti-Gatwick Express sentiment.

There is not an explicit premium for using Gatwick Express from Brighton (other than the non-availability of advance fares and the fact that there remain 'Thameslink only' fares which were intended to be removed five years ago).

Removing Gatwick Express may offer a chance to increase fares from Gatwick (especially as relatively few commuters start from there and those that do can mostly afford the expensive car parking so probably won't cause a fuss about increases). Cheaper "not Gatwick express" fares from Gatwick have caused price differentials from other local stations for some time.

Making the existing services "Brighton fasts" but adding calls at Clapham Junction and East Croydon would do more for passengers across the network and also mean that the Eastbourne/Littlehampton services would not have to be recombined into a single service once the "Airport only" service is reintroduced.