Abellio Greater Anglia - First Class

[Starmill]

I recently made a journey from Northumberland Park on an Abellio Greater Anglia service with a First Class ticket. The train was very busy when it arrived, and there were a lot of people in First Class despite a lot of people getting off there. The train only had four coaches, but there was some space at the other end of the train. Due to the disruptive nature of the other passengers in First, and the fact it was very full, I wasn't able to remain there. I contacted AGA about this issue, and they replied very tersely as below, as if annoyed that I should do such a thing:

I am sorry that you were unable to access the First Class area. Under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, where the First Class facilities are unavailable we will refund the difference between the cost of First Class travel and Standard Class travel. On this occasion the full facilities were provided, we cannot be responsible for the actions of other passengers which may have affected your decision to enter the First Class carriage.

Now I won't be taking this further I don't think, as their frankly pretty rude tone implies there is no point in doing so, but I would point out that the normal procedure in this situation is to alert the guard to the fact that you can't make use of First Class accommodation. Of course, AGA do not care enough about their passengers to provide any customer service staff onboard Cambridge <> Liverpool Street trains, so this isn't an option. Any thoughts?

 

[najaB]

Now I won't be taking this further I don't think, as their frankly pretty rude tone implies there is no point in doing so, but I would point out that the normal procedure in this situation is to alert the guard to the fact that you can't make use of First Class accommodation. Of course, AGA do not care enough about their passengers to provide any customer service staff onboard Cambridge <> Liverpool Street trains, so this isn't an option. Any thoughts?

Technically they are in the right as First Class was provided and available. I think, however, that any customer service advisor worth his or her salt would make a gesture of goodwill if you escalated the matter.

 

[SPADTrap]

What were the disruptions happening in first class?

 

[Llanigraham]

I see nothing rude in their reply, at all. Just a factual and correct response to an unreasonable request.
Your past history here betrays you!

 

[LateThanNever]

I recently made a journey from Northumberland Park on an Abellio Greater Anglia service with a First Class ticket. The train was very busy when it arrived, and there were a lot of people in First Class despite a lot of people getting off there. The train only had four coaches, but there was some space at the other end of the train. Due to the disruptive nature of the other passengers in First, and the fact it was very full, I wasn't able to remain there. I contacted AGA about this issue, and they replied very tersely as below, as if annoyed that I should do such a thing:



Now I won't be taking this further I don't think, as their frankly pretty rude tone implies there is no point in doing so, but I would point out that the normal procedure in this situation is to alert the guard to the fact that you can't make use of First Class accommodation. Of course, AGA do not care enough about their passengers to provide any customer service staff onboard Cambridge <> Liverpool Street trains, so this isn't an option. Any thoughts?

Why not suggest that you were unable to contact on - board staff and have since discovered there was only a driver.
First, thank them obsequiously for their kind reply and say how awkward the journey was. Ask if, in spite of your recent experience, you were to travel first class again and encounter similar problems how would they suggest you contact the driver?
That should at least make them think enough to pay you off!?!

 

[Starmill]

Your past history here betrays you!

You've lost me. Care to explain?

 

[yorkie]

They are within their rights to refuse compensation.

Any thoughts?

Yes: the message is clear; first class will not generally be 'policed' on these trains, therefore it is inadvisable to bother paying any extra to travel 1st class on these trains, and instead travel standard class.

Of course, passengers may hold tickets for longer journeys (e.g. Leeds to Northumberland Park via EC & Connections) where it is worth paying the extra to upgrade, but I'd argue that, while it's understandably frustrating, you're really paying the extra mostly on the basis of experiencing good customer service on the other operators trains.

I'm sure Barry Doe would be interested in learning of GA's policy and lack of enforcement though.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I see nothing rude in their reply, at all. Just a factual and correct response to an unreasonable request.
Your past history here betrays you!

I agree.

I'd say its someone looking for faults, where there are other (possibly better?) ways of occupying their attention. Finding what they're looking for. Then taking the time to write about it, to post on here, and still wanting to find faults.

Some days are faultless! Not many, perhaps, but they are worth noting!

 

[bb21]

Why not suggest that you were unable to contact on - board staff and have since discovered there was only a driver.
First, thank them obsequiously for their kind reply and say how awkward the journey was. Ask if, in spite of your recent experience, you were to travel first class again and encounter similar problems how would they suggest you contact the driver?
That should at least make them think enough to pay you off!?!

I like this approach.

It may or may not result in any compensation, which is not important, but more importantly it forces them to consider this problem, and perhaps put themselves in the passenger's shoes for once. If no satisfactory response is received, I think it is perfectly reasonable to escalate this matter further.

 

[Starmill]

I agree.

I'd say its someone looking for faults, where there are other (possibly better?) ways of occupying their attention. Finding what they're looking for. Then taking the time to write about it, to post on here, and still wanting to find faults.

Some days are faultless! Not many, perhaps, but they are worth noting!

I'm sorry, Dave, but your meaning, like Llanigraham's, escapes me. That could be entirely down to me, but perhaps you could be plainer.



Anyway, I agree with yorkie. I will not be going back to Northumberland Park any time soon, nor using First Class on Greater Anglia.

I'm glad there's parity of approach too. We now know how passengers who hold First Class tickets who travel on Greater Anglia trains where there isn't access to First Class accommodation (which are timetabled to convey it, that is) are treated. Of course, passengers who do not have First Class tickets who travel in First Class accommodation on Greater Anglia trains are treated by means of...

 

[CC 72100]

starmill, I doubt you'll be the first to experience non-enforcement of first class on DOO trains and I strongly doubt you'll be the last.

I'd be very interested to see statistics regarding anti-social behaviour, fare evasion etc. on DOO trains v those with more than just a driver on-board.

I thought I was travelling on my first ever DOO train in the uk today, only for about halfway through a rather jolly Conductor appeared!

 

[yorkie]

starmill, I doubt you'll be the first to experience non-enforcement of first class on DOO trains and I strongly doubt you'll be the last.

I'd be very interested to see statistics regarding anti-social behaviour, fare evasion etc. on DOO trains v those with more than just a driver on-board.

I thought I was travelling on my first ever DOO train in the uk today, only for about halfway through a rather jolly Conductor appeared!

Let's be clear: this is nothing to do with Driver Only Operation (DOO).

I don't wish for this to be yet another DOO argument (please, no! we've had enough, and they never go well!), as it's been done to death, but the DOO trains in Strathclyde have excellent revenue protection with a roaming ticket inspector on almost every train, who doesn't have to pause to do the doors and isn't allowed to disappear into the back cab. Another example would be Southeastern's High Speed 1 which is DOO, with their on-board managers checking tickets. This is in stark contrast to SWT inner-suburban services, which generally have non-commercial Guards who may not be visible and, even if they are, will not be doing any revenue duties whatsoever.

It's down to Greater Anglia's staffing decisions, but isn't down to driver only operation per se.

 

[Mag_seven]

Where two classes of accommodation is provided on a train, is it not about time that there was some sort of obligation on the TOC to enforce it. Simply having random checks is quite clearly not good enough on some TOCs.

 

[30907]

Yes, but it's to enforce payment of the correct fare. Enforcing correct behaviour, in either class, is a separate issue.

 

[jon0844]

Always bear in mind that many services along there don't even have first class in operation. I wonder if AGA was actually correct in what it said, if it was a Hertford East train?

I've seen the odd 315 but by and large they're all 317s and have first class in name only.

 

[Starmill]

Always bear in mind that many services along there don't even have first class in operation. I wonder if AGA was actually correct in what it said, if it was a Hertford East train?

I've seen the odd 315 but by and large they're all 317s and have first class in name only.

Of course I would have checked this beforehand, otherwise how would I know if there was First on the train or not? It seems a good proportion of trains from Northumberland Park have it. It was indeed a single class 317.

 

[yorkie]

Of course I would have checked this beforehand, otherwise how would I know if there was First on the train or not?

To be fair, some people (passengers and on-duty revenue protection staff alike!) have made the assumption that First Class is provided on a particular service when, in fact, it is not.

 

[Llanigraham]

You've lost me. Care to explain?

Your previous anti-railway comments.

 

[Starmill]

Your previous anti-railway comments.

Which part of this thread to you consider to be 'anti-railway'? I don't recognise any such previous occasions when I have said I hate 'the railway'? Indeed, if I were against rail as a mode of transport - I wouldn't have been on the train that day, would I?

 

[Llanigraham]

I didn't say it was in this thread, I said "previous".

 

[jon0844]

Of course I would have checked this beforehand, otherwise how would I know if there was First on the train or not? It seems a good proportion of trains from Northumberland Park have it. It was indeed a single class 317.

Most people will assume a train with first class has first class. But now I'm using the line a fair bit, it seems that a lot of people must know which ones don't actually have it (and, yes, you might get RPIs that disagree but I've only had one ticket check on AGA since last July) as the Hertford East trains usually have a fair few people in first, but not so much on others.

Some might actually have first class tickets, but I imagine the school kids on the train around 3.30pm probably don't.

 

[Clip]

I see nothing rude in their reply to you. They only have 140 characters to do so and replied as best they could - that's not being rude.

Now if 1st was so full you couldn't get in then write a polite letter to them explaining so. If it was because of anything else try your luck. You never know.

 

[Trainfan344]

I didn't say it was in this thread, I said "previous".

I don't think I've ever seen anything that could be viewed as "anti-railway" being posted from starmill.

 

[306024]

You don't see Northumberland Park and busy in the same sentence too often, unless Spurs are at home, which is the only time Cambridge trains call there.

Something doesn't quite sound right here, but unless people are prepared to pay for enforcement staff on every train abuse of 1st class is something that just comes with modern society I'm afraid.

It's not just AGA, abuse of 1st is rife between East Croydon and Victoria for example, even on trains with conductors, who rightly see conflict avoidance as more important.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that was an email. I think their response is very terse, if perhaps not crossing the boundary into actual bad manners. I also sent them (actually mostly positive about how nice First is on class 379s!) some comments about my outward journey. They said:

Our Stansted Express service is designed to accommodate passengers travelling to and from Stansted airport and is not a Metro service.
Unfortunately without knowing which type of travelcard you were travelling with I am unable to confirm if it was valid for travel from London Liverpool Street to Northumberland Park.

Frankly, I don't care if they consider it a 'metro' service or not - it's a train, on which I have a valid ticket to travel and am doing so between London Liverpool Street and Northumberland Park! The second sentence is bizarre too and implies that they don't trust that I had a ticket that was valid for the journey I said I made.

It's also seriously stretching them truth for them saying that Stansted Express is not designed for passengers who aren't travelling to Stansted Airport. If it were, why do they all call at Tottenham Hale and at least one other station in the daytime?

I was surprised the train was so busy - if there hadn't been lots of people getting off it I wouldn't have been able to get on anywhere at all. Although I didn't notice anything football-related.

 

[306024]

Does sound odd if it wasn't football fans, but a quick check of Spurs fixtures against the date you travelled would sort that out. Most of the time Northumberland Park is served by Stratford trains rather than Liverpool St trains.

Accept the principle, but surviving a 15 minute journey without first class is not too high on the list of world problems.

 

[Clip]

Does sound odd if it wasn't football fans, but a quick check of Spurs fixtures against the date you travelled would sort that out. Most of the time Northumberland Park is served by Stratford trains rather than Liverpool St trains.

Accept the principle, but surviving a 15 minute journey without first class is not too high on the list of world problems.

Of course it is when you pay such outrageously high fares for your journey!

 

[DJ737]

Due to the disruptive nature of the other passengers in First, and the fact it was very full, I wasn't able to remain there.

G'day

Did the "Disruptive" passengers in 1st have first class tickets?

Just a thought.

DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[yorkie]

The second sentence is bizarre too and implies that they don't trust that I had a ticket that was valid for the journey I said I made.

While I agree the wording isn't entirely appropriate, it is fair that they ask for details (a photo/scan of the ticket would be a fair request), as evidence.

It's also seriously stretching them truth for them saying that Stansted Express is not designed for passengers who aren't travelling to Stansted Airport. If it were, why do they all call at Tottenham Hale and at least one other station in the daytime?

If they really are denying passengers the right to use these trains for intermediate stations, or claiming the trains are not intended for their use, then I believe contacting the DfT and London Travelwatch would resolve that matter.

I suspect it's just an errant off-the-cuff remark by a very junior member of inexperienced customer service staff and not of any relevance, though, so can safely be ignored.

 

[Greenback]

Frankly, I don't care if they consider it a 'metro' service or not - it's a train, on which I have a valid ticket to travel and am doing so between London Liverpool Street and Northumberland Park! The second sentence is bizarre too and implies that they don't trust that I had a ticket that was valid for the journey I said I made.

Without any context of knowing what other communications had said, it's difficult to make a comment on this aspect of the message.

It's also seriously stretching them truth for them saying that Stansted Express is not designed for passengers who aren't travelling to Stansted Airport. If it were, why do they all call at Tottenham Hale and at least one other station in the daytime?

For interchange purposes for airport passengers not going to central London?

As I read it, the company are trying to explain how they differentiate between a 379 and a 315/317 run service. They see it as a premium airport service which is designed to appeal to air travellers, but they are not actually denying anyone use of that train between, say, Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale. 'Designed for' and 'Used by' aren't necessarily the same thing.