Abbey Wood to Carlisle

[blakey1152]

Hope this is the right forum to post this into

Travelled recently with my Uncle from Abbey Wood to Carlisle using an off-peak return ticket and we had seats booked on the 1030 train from London Euston to Carlisle.

To get up to Euston in time you have to travel before 0930 from Abbey Wood and I am aware that there is an easement allowing this to happen however our tickets wouldn't work the gates at Abbey Wood and the member of staff manning the gates at the time insisted that the Off Peak ticket isn't valid until after 0930.

As the member of staff wasn't going to budge on the fact that we believed you are permitted to travel on any train into London even if it is during the peak as the destination on the ticket is outside of the south-east network area we had to use our Oyster cards to travel up to Charing Cross.

As we had a valid ticket I want to try and get the money back but who do I claim a refund from, Oyster or Southeastern and does anyone know which easement it is so I can quote it to them!

Needless to say once we got to Charing Cross we had no issues with using the tickets to cross London to Euston!

Thankyou so much
Blakey

 

[yorkie]

I am not at all surprised. See this. Write to complain, and if you don't get anywhere, get Passenger Focus involved.

Sample letter:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

I recently purchased an Off Peak Return from Abbey Wood to Carlisle, and had seats booked on the 1030 train from London Euston to Carlisle.

To get up to Euston in time I had to get the xxxx from Abbey Wood and I have been informed that the 'Network Area' rule allows me to take any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

However our tickets wouldn't work the gates at Abbey Wood and the member of staff manning the gates at the time insisted that the Off Peak ticket isn't valid until after 0930.

As the member of staff wasn't going to budge on the fact that we believed you are permitted to travel on any train into London as the destination on the ticket is outside of the south-east network area we had to use our Oyster cards to travel up to Charing Cross.

I am therefore requesting a full refund of my unnecessary Oyster payment (see attached Oyster journey history) as well as payment of a £10 admin fee to cover my time in dealing with this matter.

Please can you inform me whether or not your gateline staff are fully trained on tickets, and if not, can you provide a date by which full training will be provided?

Providing you agree to my terms and answer the question above, that will be the end of the matter. Alternatively if you do not, I will refer the matter to Passenger Focus, and if necessary my MP and the DfT.

It's up to you how you word it, but based on the experience other people have had with SET, you need to make them in no doubt you mean business, and if they don't sort it out immediately, don't waste any time in referring the matter to Passenger Focus. Also report it to DfT as a franchise breach, and perhaps your MP (not sure who your MP is but at least one MP in SET-land, Mark Reckless, has been campaigning about incorrect charges by SET and asking for them to be stripped of their franchise).

 

[bnm]

Oh dear. Yet another example of a gateline member of staff not knowing ticket validity and instead making up the rules as they go along. These poorly paid, poorly trained, and often just downright awkward, members of staff are a discredit to the rail industry. They and their managers, across all TOCs, need a damn good kick up the backside. Every instance of being denied travel when holding a valid ticket is a breach of contract. Oh how I'd love to start a class action.

Complain vociferously to Southeastern. If they fob you off, which is quite likely, then take your complaint to London TravelWatch.

There's often the suggestion that you carry an itinerary to show the awkward squad, but that really shouldn't be necessary.

 

[maniacmartin]

Regarding your question about an easement, this rule isn't because of an easement at all. Easements allow (or disallow) you to travel on specific routes, but are not relevant to the time you can travel.

Each ticket has a restriction code, which will depend on the origin and destination printed on the ticket, as well as the ticket type (Off Peak Single, Off Peak Return, Off Peak Day Return, Anytime Single, etc)

Each restriction code corresponds with a description of times which you may travel. As you can see on this page on the unofficial site BRFares, your ticket has restriction code 5F, and the restrictions for it are in the left-most column. The only restrictions that are relevant for the journey you made are:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0430 and at or after
0905.

As the restriction code makes no mention of travel from Abbey Wood or into the south London terminals, then there are no restrictions.

Contrary to common opinion of many members of the public and some railway staff, there are no blanket restrictions on when off-peak tickets are valid, it really does depend on the exact ticket, as two similar tickets may have different restriction codes. This information is available in a roundabout way on National Rail Enquires website, and also available to ticket office staff in their computer systems. Gateline and onboard staff have no method of directly checking this information.

 

[transmanche]

As the restriction code makes no mention of travel from Abbey Wood or into the south London terminals, then there are no restrictions.

To reinforce this; in the second column, that webpage goes on to explicitly state:

The 'Network area' is defined as the area in which the Network railcard is valid. For details see Network Railcard map.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area to destinations outside the Network Area with travel via London are valid by any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

 

[yorkie]

Oh dear. Yet another example of a gateline member of staff not knowing ticket validity and instead making up the rules as they go along.....

To be fair, there are many gateline staff who are very good though!

But training is poor, and in some cases gateline staff are in the bizarre situation of having no ticketing training, and yet somehow expected to check ticket validities... or, in the case of some TOCs, they are instructed to not accept any ticket that is 'off peak' until a certain time, or discounted with certain Railcards until a certain time, etc. No checking of rules/validities, just myths to go on!

We even had a forum member told he couldn't use his 16-25 Railcard from a London Overground station because those Railcards are not valid until 0930 (!), even though it was an Advance ticket so the minimum fare wasn't applicable, and to top it all off it was during July/August!

I don't blame the individual front-line staff, it's the fault of the shocking managers who put them in that position, and provide inadequate (or no) training, spread untrue myths and expect non-existent 'rules' to be enforced.

Those managers need to be brought to account, and the only way that will happen is if complaints are made to the DfT, MPs, and Passenger Focus/London Travelwatch (though anyone who can get Passenger Focus to actually be bothered about any ticketing matter is probably a miracle-worker!) and even then I am not convinced we can prevent such incidents! But we have to try...

 

[bnm]

To be fair, there are many gateline staff who are very good though!

Indeed. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so sweeping in my criticism of them. The good ones are those who have taken it upon themselves to read up of the byzantine world of UK rail ticket validities. Those that check should also be praised.

Their managers however do need to be lined up and kicked up the jacksie.

The default position should be, "if unsure, check." Although even that can be problematical when you encounter a member of staff who is adamant they are right and is then backed up by a superior.

 

[tony6499]

It is one of the basic ticket validities so it is concerning that a passenger is treated like this. Whoever is in charge of training the gateline staff needs training themselves.

 

[island]

It's not the first time I've heard of Southeastern insisting on all off-peak tickets having a blanket 9:30 restriction. I was refused sale of a ticket previously on this ground.

 

[34D]

I am not at all surprised. See this. Write to complain, and if you don't get anywhere, get Passenger Focus involved.

Sample letter:



It's up to you how you word it, but based on the experience other people have had with SET, you need to make them in no doubt you mean business, and if they don't sort it out immediately, don't waste any time in referring the matter to Passenger Focus. Also report it to DfT as a franchise breach, and perhaps your MP (not sure who your MP is but at least one MP in SET-land, Mark Reckless, has been campaigning about incorrect charges by SET and asking for them to be stripped of their franchise).

London Travelwatch..... otherwise I fully agree.

 

[yorkie]

London Travelwatch..... otherwise I fully agree.

I thought that journeys wholly within the LTW area went to London Travelwatch, while any other journey went to Passenger Focus.

In fact, I'd contact both. Passenger Focus are not in my good books at the moment, they certainly don't 'focus' on passenger rights!

 

[ainsworth74]

Passenger Focus are not in my good books at the moment, they certainly don't 'focus' on passenger rights!

Whatever gave you the impression that they were supposed to!?

 

[sarahj]

I remember making an announcment that off peak tickets are not valid on this train unless you hold a ticket for a destination outside london. One pass had a off peak travel card and said he was going to finsbury park which is north of london. As I explained, no thats north london and excessed his ticket.

But the sad thing is, this sort of thing was not taught to us during our commercial course, you learned it, as you went along, and this is the sort of thing that comes up, along with not being taught B1/B2/B3 codes, and as result I still feel guilty of a anytime I sold 6 years ago on a B3 ticket at 09.08.

 

[34D]

I thought that journeys wholly within the LTW area went to London Travelwatch, while any other journey went to Passenger Focus.

In fact, I'd contact both. Passenger Focus are not in my good books at the moment, they certainly don't 'focus' on passenger rights!

Two separate areas, no overlap, is how I understood it. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[bnm]

I still feel guilty of a anytime I sold 6 years ago on a B3 ticket at 09.08.

A passenger makes a ticketing error and can then be subject to criminal sanction. A member of rail staff makes a ticketing error and there's little comeback except feeling a bit guilty years later. More a general observation sarahj and little criticism of you. It's your lack of training and a complex system which are the major failings.

That said, the system is skewed in the industry's favour. Both examples are technically a fraud on the other party involved in the transaction. Both examples may be because of ignorance of the rules. But then, as we all know, ignorance is no defence.

 

[yorkie]

Two separate areas, no overlap, is how I understood it. Happy to be corrected though.

Can you clarify what you mean as I am unsure.

I appreciate if a journey is wholly within one of the areas, then it's obvious where the complaint should go.

But you appear to be saying an issue for a journey from an origin inside the LTW area to a destination outside the Passenger Focus area, comes under LTW, but I'm not sure about that, but would be happy to read any clarification anyone can provide.

That said, the system is skewed in the industry's favour...

Indeed, I'd like to see a level playing field.

Admin fees when we want to make a change, but not when a TOC does? That's not right.

Penalty Fares when mistakes are made by us in certain circumstances, but no penalty when a TOC makes a mistake? Again not right.

And prosecution for us, with 'strict liability' byelaws, and not for TOCs, while TOCs get taxpayer support to prosecute us, and we don't. Again, doesn't seem right!

No chance of a level playing field though!

 

[Haywain]

A passenger makes a ticketing error and can then be subject to criminal sanction. A member of rail staff makes a ticketing error and there's little comeback except feeling a bit guilty years later. More a general observation sarahj and little criticism of you. It's your lack of training and a complex system which are the major failings.

That said, the system is skewed in the industry's favour. Both examples are technically a fraud on the other party involved in the transaction. Both examples may be because of ignorance of the rules. But then, as we all know, ignorance is no defence.

Neither of your examples are fraud, either technically or in any other way, as fraud must be a deliberate and calculated act of deception. Therefore the person who buys a child ticket despite being 28 years of age is likely to be committing a fraud, but the person who makes a ticketing error is not. And rail staff are human, and do sometimes make mistakes. Much as we would like to be, we can't all be perfect.

 

[transmanche]

And rail staff are human, and do sometimes make mistakes. Much as we would like to be, we can't all be perfect.

But you have to admit that passengers who make genuine mistakes in certain areas are subject to a penalty. But if a member of rail staff makes a genuine mistake, there's no penalty for the rail company.

 

[yorkie]

Much as we would like to be, we can't all be perfect.

Indeed. So we're agreed that people (staff or customers) who make mistakes should not be charged a penalty, or prosecuted. That's settled then. Now to get the legislation changed...

 

[Haywain]

But you have to admit that passengers who make genuine mistakes in certain areas are subject to a penalty. But if a member of rail staff makes a genuine mistake, there's no penalty for the rail company.

Actually, that's not strictly true. Within the industry there are penalties for TOCs and retailers who make errors in the selling of tickets, through various mechanisms. And for staff, there are potential penalties through procedures (disciplinary and otherwise) which can ultimately lead to a loss of employment.

 

[transmanche]

Actually, that's not strictly true.

Yes it is.

Within the industry there are penalties for TOCs and retailers who make errors in the selling of tickets, through various mechanisms.

But no instant penalty, with the money going direct to the affected passenger, or the possibility of prosecution.

And for staff, there are potential penalties through procedures (disciplinary and otherwise) which can ultimately lead to a loss of employment.

But no instant penalty, with the money going direct to the affected passenger, or the possibility of prosecution.

So completely different. Or are you equating 'getting sacked for being incompetent' with 'being penalised or prosecuted for making a genuine mistake'?

 

[Haywain]

Yes it is

No it isn't. But you clearly don't want an alternative to your own view.

Or are you equating 'getting sacked for being incompetent' with 'being penalised or prosecuted for making a genuine mistake'?

No I'm not, you are.

 

[transmanche]

No it isn't. But you clearly don't want an alternative to your own view.

It's not just my view. It's the view of many people who see passengers being charged a penalty fare or prosecuted for making an honest mistake - but don't see an equivalent applied against rail staff or TOCs.

No I'm not, you are.

So what are you on about?

Is there an instant penalty, with the money going directly to the affected passenger, if any TOC or a member of staff makes an honest ticketing mistake? Or is there the possibility of prosecution for any TOC or a member of staff making an honest ticketing mistake? If the answer to those two questions is no, then clearly it is not a level playing field.

 

[Haywain]

It's not just my view. It's the view of many people who see passengers being charged a penalty fare or prosecuted for making an honest mistake - but don't see an equivalent applied against rail staff or TOCs.

So what are you on about?

Is there an instant penalty, with the money going directly to the affected passenger, if any TOC or a member of staff makes an honest ticketing mistake? Or is there the possibility of prosecution for any TOC or a member of staff making an honest ticketing mistake? If the answer to those two questions is no, then clearly it is not a level playing field.

The fact that you and other people have a view does not make it right. There are systems where TOCs are penalised for errors in ticketing. No the money does not go to the passenger, but on many occasions it is the passenger who has benefitted in the first place.

As for your level playing field, I did not make any claim that one existed. I pointed out that staff can also be subject to sanction for errors, and that it was not realistic to suggest that an error by either side was automatically a fraud.

 

[yorkie]

But an error by one party is subject to a penalty (in certain circumstances / areas) issued on the spot and/or admin fees, and most seriously, a 'strict liability' prosecution (which is very difficult to defend against).

In this case, the person making the error refused to even look up the rules, refused to be corrected, and refused to honour the contract. If a customer refused to listen and accept the rules, and refused to honour their part of the contract, they can be prosecuted.

For example there's a particularly notable guard on a particular TOC who disregards numerous rules and regulations, and makes up his own Routeing Guide, again with total impunity, while the customers have to rigorously defend themselves while being threatened with prosecution and hit with admin fees from debt collection agency. The default position, if the customers did not mount a rigorous defence and enlist help from people such as ourselves, is that they'd lose in court, as the court would not understand the rules.

The system is totally and utterly broken and we want change.

blakey1152 - please let us know the outcome, and if you do not get a totally satisfactory response please escalate the matter. I am happy to proof read any letters.

Until we hear back from blakey1152 I see little point in continuing this discussion, as it is going round in circles. We can continue it shortly....