Abbey Line question

[Bald Rick]

St Albans to Watford etc - there is a fairly clear alternative route from Park street in the direction of the city station.

I’m afraid it’s not clear at all. Buildings in the way (some listed) or flood plain. Take your pick!

getting the time down to just under 15 minutes - can that really be sufficient to run a 30 minute service - no rest time, no resilience?

The time needs to average 12 minutes, with 3 minute turnarounds.

Its 16 minutes now (17 in the middle of the day, with longer dwells).

DCO will take out 1.5 mins (by making all stops 30 sec).
Improving linespeed (including approach speed at the Abbey) could save 1.25mins

That brings the standard end to end all stops time down to 12.75mins. Add 3 mins for the turn round, and 2 return trips an hour needs 65 mins. Therefore we need to find 5 minutes from 4 trips.

Taking out each stop will save 75 sec. 4 stops is 5 mins. Therefore we need to lose 4 stops (total) from 4 services in the hour. Options:

1) close a station (very unlikely!)
2) skip stop any one of the stops from every train (varying the skip, and not Watford N)
3) skip stop two from every other service (but not both of Park St and How Wood in the same service, nor Watford N in any) making a ‘slow’ and ‘not quite as slow’ service each hour.


This is all my fag packet estimates, no official work has been done on this.

 

[zwk500]

1) close a station (very unlikely!)
2) skip stop any one of the stops from every train (varying the skip, and not Watford N)
3) skip stop two from every other service (but not both of Park St and How Wood in the same service, nor Watford N in any) making a ‘slow’ and ‘not quite as slow’ service each hour.

Is there much travel between park St and How wood? as they're quite close together the most obvious solution would appear to be Stopping 1tph at Park St and t'other at How Wood. Garston looks to be the only other sensible stop to drop to 1tph (all other stations serve distinct towns, Garston is still in the Watford area), but it has higher usage than Bricket Wood, Park Street and How Wood so from a Revenue perspective would be silly to drop.

 

[edwin_m]

3) skip stop two from every other service (but not both of Park St and How Wood in the same service, nor Watford N in any) making a ‘slow’ and ‘not quite as slow’ service each hour.

Is there much travel between park St and How wood? as they're quite close together the most obvious solution would appear to be Stopping 1tph at Park St and t'other at How Wood. Garston looks to be the only other sensible stop to drop to 1tph (all other stations serve distinct towns, Garston is still in the Watford area), but it has higher usage than Bricket Wood, Park Street and How Wood so from a Revenue perspective would be silly to drop.

Is the issue here that the two are so close together that skipping both won't save as much time as skipping two stations that are further apart?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there much travel between park St and How wood? as they're quite close together the most obvious solution would appear to be Stopping 1tph at Park St and t'other at How Wood. Garston looks to be the only other sensible stop to drop to 1tph (all other stations serve distinct towns, Garston is still in the Watford area), but it has higher usage than Bricket Wood, Park Street and How Wood so from a Revenue perspective would be silly to drop.

There will be no travel between Park St & How Wood. So yes, alternate calls there is definitely a solution In this hypothetical half hourly scenario. That way the Park St / How Wood area gets a service every half hour, albeit from alternate stations at opposite half hours.

The other one I’d leave at hourly is Bricket Wood. It’s on the very edge of the community it serves, and has around 50 return trips from it a day.

Is the issue here that the two are so close together that skipping both won't save as much time as skipping two stations that are further apart?

Yes that’s correct.

Also no point skipping Watford North due to the Level Crossing there (ABCL type). That and Garston have relatively good passenger numbers, and would benefit from a more frequent service. There is another option where the line is sped up a little (DCO, shorter turnarounds, plus some linespeed), and the second service runs a Watford to Garston shuttle in the spare time each hour. Obviously the services would not be half hourly though.

 

[cle]

Both towns actually have reasonable employment options and companies based there - more so than most other radial Home Counties dormitaries. Also they have 'lively' nightlife, a few theatres between them, some shopping (shame about Trewins obv) and yes, hospital and WFC.

And rail connections at Watford - which hopefully will include Manchester more fully in time. So it's not nothing, and a better service will always lead to better use. But failing a ton of home-building (yimby here, so yes please) - it'll be relatively finite.

 

[A0]

It sort of feels as if an east-west segregated quality transport link in Hertfordshire ought to be viable, considering the general population density and the traffic congestion. However, it would probably require bus feeders to bring the passengers to it, which is unlikely to be workable possible considering said traffic congestion and also the obstacles of bus deregulation - not to mention the general lack of funding.

As somebody who used to actually live and work in the area - I can tell you that's not the case.

Going from east to west, you have Ware (small market town, 1 large employer in GSK, more affinity with Harlow and Lea Valley towns than Welwyn Garden City or points east), Hertford (similar to Ware), Welwyn Garden City (medium sized town, few employers, probably people look to Hatfield or Stevenage for employment now a number of larger employers have moved out of WGC), Hatfield (probably the main employment centre of this 'east west band' given the number of employers who are on the old BAe site), St Albans (old, historic, difficult to get around, limited employment opportunities), Hemel Hempstead (largish town, employment on east side near M1, rest is mainly standard 'new towns housing' down to the A41 corridor), Watford (large town, some large employers in vicinity of station, like St Albans a pain to get around).

The number of people travelling from Welwyn Gdn City or Hatfield to either Hemel or Watford for work isn't going to be huge - not when there are plenty of opportunities at Hatfield, Stevenage or London, which can be done in 30 mins).

St Albans is a tricky one - if you avoid St Albans you'll save time, but lose custom.

Hemel & Watford don't have so much demand to travel east to St Albans, Hatfield or Welwyn, let alone Hertford or Ware.

 

[Verulamius]

Both towns actually have reasonable employment options and companies based there - more so than most other radial Home Counties dormitaries. Also they have 'lively' nightlife, a few theatres between them, some shopping (shame about Trewins obv) and yes, hospital and WFC.

Certain on my commute back home from Watford to St Albans of an evening is not not uncommon for passengers to join at Garston, Watford North on the way to St Albans. There is quite a lot of industry around Watford North so there is some commuting to Watford North rather than the Junction. The new Garston passengers tend to be young going for a night out in St Albans.

 

[stuu]

As somebody who used to actually live and work in the area - I can tell you that's not the case.

Going from east to west, you have Ware (small market town, 1 large employer in GSK, more affinity with Harlow and Lea Valley towns than Welwyn Garden City or points east), Hertford (similar to Ware), Welwyn Garden City (medium sized town, few employers, probably people look to Hatfield or Stevenage for employment now a number of larger employers have moved out of WGC), Hatfield (probably the main employment centre of this 'east west band' given the number of employers who are on the old BAe site), St Albans (old, historic, difficult to get around, limited employment opportunities), Hemel Hempstead (largish town, employment on east side near M1, rest is mainly standard 'new towns housing' down to the A41 corridor), Watford (large town, some large employers in vicinity of station, like St Albans a pain to get around).

The number of people travelling from Welwyn Gdn City or Hatfield to either Hemel or Watford for work isn't going to be huge - not when there are plenty of opportunities at Hatfield, Stevenage or London, which can be done in 30 mins).

St Albans is a tricky one - if you avoid St Albans you'll save time, but lose custom.

Hemel & Watford don't have so much demand to travel east to St Albans, Hatfield or Welwyn, let alone Hertford or Ware.

And yet the A414 is used by 50k vehicles every day, which would suggest that there is a fair amount of demand for cross-county travel.

I used to live in St Albans and work in Watford. There were a lot of people who made that journey every day, and in our office at least a number who came from WGC and even Stevenage. The ONS have actual data of course, so it should be fairly straightforward to work out the numbers travelling for work

 

[A0]

And yet the A414 is used by 50k vehicles every day, which would suggest that there is a fair amount of demand for cross-county travel.

I used to live in St Albans and work in Watford. There were a lot of people who made that journey every day, and in our office at least a number who came from WGC and even Stevenage. The ONS have actual data of course, so it should be fairly straightforward to work out the numbers travelling for work

And were those people in your office going between St Albans and Watford using the bus or train ? Somehow I suspect not.

The A414 links loads of places - the problem is either you get fast journeys, so run fast between Hatfield & Watford, or serve the places en route to attract custom.

There's a reason why the 724 serves Ware, Hertford, Welwyn GC, Hatfield, St Albans and Watford and there isn't a fast bus simply going Hertford, Hatfield, Watford - which would be quicker and more direct.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And yet the A414 is used by 50k vehicles every day, which would suggest that there is a fair amount of demand for cross-county travel.

I used to live in St Albans and work in Watford. There were a lot of people who made that journey every day, and in our office at least a number who came from WGC and even Stevenage. The ONS have actual data of course, so it should be fairly straightforward to work out the numbers travelling for work

Road commuting into centers such as Welwyn / Watford and Hemel in Herts can be absolute hell - even in the COVID era , but especially pre. (and presumably now)

I have , for a while , been a dutiful parent and acted as driver for my sons, - and I assure you it is dire. Dropping one off at Hemel for a train to MK was just about OK for 0800 , - but you could expect a solid log jam on the return to SAC with traffic standing for about 2 miles out: same one worked for a short while at Welwyn (PS - plenty of work there with a range of employers at least a mile from the station , and not served by bus) , equally bad - but the accolade for awful road commuting has to be SAC to Watford. Other son worked for a while not far from the Met Line station , and it probably has to be the worst. For an 0800 / 0830 start you need to be on the road for 0700 and not a moment later.

So yes - there are loads of multi destination trips by road , and not much chance of doing it by rail - as far as east / west is concerned. The contribution of the Abbey line is regrettably very low , possibly not going to get greater if you doubled the service. I can think of people I have encouraged to use the Abbey line for work journeys such as SAC - Harrow , or even Central Watford , - they do it for a short while , but inevitably give up after a long trek across the City in bad weather , a wait in a basic station and a trek the other way. Even sitting in a semi-log jam car , with your own choice of music , heat , etc - is a price probably worth paying for.

East - West bus links - very fond of the 321 bus , but it inevitably gets slaughtered by dense urban road traffic , and as we know , not exactly cheap.

Herts has (despite the whinging) , a good and fast service to the Capital City , but not much of real value across the County.

 

[cle]

And were those people in your office going between St Albans and Watford using the bus or train ? Somehow I suspect not.

Chicken and egg - a reliable train service would surely influence this - source: every other good train service's outcomes.

Herts has (despite the whinging) , a good and fast service to the Capital City , but not much of real value across the County.

And to be fair, I don't think this will be that. But just a connection between arguably the two most important places in the County - and one of the main rail transport hubs.

 

[A0]

Chicken and egg - a reliable train service would surely influence this - source: every other good train service's outcomes.

Not given the location of St Albans Abbey station which is a long way from most areas if St Albans and the fact Watford Junction isn't exactly conveniently located either.

And to be fair, I don't think this will be that. But just a connection between arguably the two most important places in the County - and one of the main rail transport hubs.

St Albans isn't one of the "two most important places" in the county, except in historical or ecclesiastical terms. (With due apologies to both Chief Planner and Bald Rick)

From an economic, shopping or even housing perspective Stevenage, Hemel or even Hatfield are more important.

 

[zwk500]

Chicken and egg - a reliable train service would surely influence this - source: every other good train service's outcomes.

It would influence it - but by how much? There is a ceiling to the potential usage.

 

[cle]

Not given the location of St Albans Abbey station which is a long way from most areas if St Albans and the fact Watford Junction isn't exactly conveniently located either.



St Albans isn't one of the "two most important places" in the county, except in historical or ecclesiastical terms. (With due apologies to both Chief Planner and Bald Rick)

From an economic, shopping or even housing perspective Stevenage, Hemel or even Hatfield are more important.

Locations may not be amazing (WFJ does have employment around it - yes it's a walk to the high st, it's also a hub) - but they are fixed. So we can't really impact that.

Are you saying that even with a more frequent and actually reliable rail service, you think it's already maxed out? And wouldn't attract any additional users.

As for the Herts thing, I think it's fairly subjective. They're the two busiest rail locations (St Albans City admittedly) - Hatfield is far smaller but yes has a mall and the uni, nearby Welwyn is bigger. Stevenage I would grant is up there, in the top 3 as it's also a railhead and has some jobs/counter-commuting. Hemel is an oversized nothing.

Herts itself doesn't mean much though, it's a red herring of a topic here, Watford to Stevenage may as well be the other side of the planet, zero connections between them - counties don't mean a lot these days, so nor do these pan-county links which effectively string together point A and B, B and C, C and D etc... vs a ton of different services, but don't equate to demand between A and D, even if theoretically possible.

 

[Bald Rick]

And yet the A414 is used by 50k vehicles every day, which would suggest that there is a fair amount of demand for cross-county travel.

Much of which is heading for, or coming from, the M25, M1, or A1(M)

I used to live in St Albans and work in Watford.

As did Mrs BR. Did you use the Abbey Line? She didn’t because at that time we lived nowhere near the Abbey Station, and her job was nowhere near Watford Junction or Watford North. Realistically, people will only use the Abbey line if they live within a reasonable walking time of a station and their job is also. There’s a handful of people that work in the industrial estates of north Watford that this applies to, but that’s about it. The passenger counts for trains arriving St Albans Abbey in the morning ‘peak‘ are pitiful.

St Albans isn't one of the "two most important places" in the county, except in historical or ecclesiastical terms. (With due apologies to both Chief Planner and Bald Rick)

Apology accepted, but I’d be interested to know where is more important. As it isn’t Watford, Hertford or Stevenage. I might, possibly, grant you The Strathmore Arms at St Paul’s Walden

 

[D365]

It would influence it - but by how much? There is a ceiling to the potential usage.

Only one way to find out !

 

[A0]

Apology accepted, but I’d be interested to know where is more important. As it isn’t Watford, Hertford or Stevenage. I might, possibly, grant you The Strathmore Arms at St Paul’s Walden

I know that one - My parent's local ! A long with the Rusty Gun - formerly Royal Oak a bit further up the road.

Back on topic - in economic terms, Watford, Hemel, Stevenage and Hatfield - all have more jobs in their area than St Albans does. In Leisure terms - history aside, I suspect 3 of those exceed St Albans - Hatfield's the odd one out there, though the Galleria is something of a pull if you like outlet shopping and it must be the closest cinema for St Albans as well.

Don't get me wrong - if I was going for a pub crawl or somewhere "nice" to walk around I'd head to St Albans every time. But if I was job hunting it'd be the other 4, if I was looking to do some shopping (which wasn't online) I doubt St Peter's Street is a place to head in the way it was when I worked there back in the early 90s.

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Only one way to find out !

At what cost ? And if it doesn't meet the required targets would you be happy to see it reverted to what it was before, or would it then be a case of "oh but we need to give it a bit longer" ?

 

[zwk500]

Only one way to find out !

When are you asking the consultants to submit their bids?

 

[AM9]

I know that one - My parent's local ! A long with the Rusty Gun - formerly Royal Oak a bit further up the road.

Back on topic - in economic terms, Watford, Hemel, Stevenage and Hatfield - all have more jobs in their area than St Albans does. In Leisure terms - history aside, I suspect 3 of those exceed St Albans - Hatfield's the odd one out there, though the Galleria is something of a pull if you like outlet shopping and it must be the closest cinema for St Albans as well.

Don't get me wrong - if I was going for a pub crawl or somewhere "nice" to walk around I'd head to St Albans every time. But if I was job hunting it'd be the other 4, if I was looking to do some shopping (which wasn't online) I doubt St Peter's Street is a place to head in the way it was when I worked there back in the early 90s.

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St Albans has it's own cinema, the Odyssey, which like the Rex in Berkhamsted isn't just a shed full of video rooms relying on sales of overpriced junk food. The Arena also does pretty well attracting acts (admittedly, it hasn't fully got back to the,levels that it did since the pandemic). You only have to look at the level of inbound off-peak arrivals at City station to see the levels of visitors it attracts.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For a while - pre Covid , there was an "experimental" bus link between the 2 SAC stations , which ran almost consistently empty (though the £1 hop up the hill was useful) , it must have been wholly disheartening for the driver and it was duly withdrawn. One cannot fault Herts CC for not trying .......*

(off topic - the art deco Odyssey cinema is very fine , not many places where you can sit in some comfort and watch interesting films with a wine and cheese board !)

(* though one can worry about their policy on the so called Radlett Railfreight terminal - sorry road to road transfer warehouse area , which is bound to completely and utterly grid lock the area with HGV's.....another story of course)

 

[stuu]

Much of which is heading for, or coming from, the M25, M1, or A1(M)

Some clearly is long distance, but the volumes joining and leaving at each junction, and everyone who uses the M1 between J5 and J6 to avoid north Watford shows there is a fair amount of local traffic.

As did Mrs BR. Did you use the Abbey Line? She didn’t because at that time we lived nowhere near the Abbey Station, and her job was nowhere near Watford Junction or Watford North. Realistically, people will only use the Abbey line if they live within a reasonable walking time of a station and their job is also. There’s a handful of people that work in the industrial estates of north Watford that this applies to, but that’s about it.

No, for the same reasons. I used it a few times if going out on the lash but that's it. I was only mentioning my commute to rebut the suggestion that it wasn't a common journey though.

As a general point, towns of this size and that close to each other do generate a lot of local traffic, and I think if better public transport existed it would be well-used, but as I said previously anything game-changing isn't likely to be doable within any realistic budget

 

[A0]

St Albans has it's own cinema, the Odyssey, which like the Rex in Berkhamsted isn't just a shed full of video rooms relying on sales of overpriced junk food. The Arena also does pretty well attracting acts (admittedly, it hasn't fully got back to the,levels that it did since the pandemic). You only have to look at the level of inbound off-peak arrivals at City station to see the levels of visitors it attracts.

That's recent on the cinema - looking on line it's in the old (Odeon, Cannon ? can't remember which now) on London Road which had been closed for a good few years.

As I say, I don't doubt the fact St Albans attracts visitors - it's got the history with the Abbey and Verulamium. But is St Peter's Street heaving with shoppers as it was in the 1990s ? Probably not, though I notice M&S are still there, if I were a betting man, given M&S's published strategy, I'd give that shop a couple of years at best, particularly as they've got a huge unit at London Colney, just on the edge of St Albans.

And from an employment perspective, the largest employer (after the council) is probably Premier Foods Head Office - but that's only an office and I suspect has about 500 people at best. Welwyn Garden City beats that with Tesco's who are at least double that size and Roche Pharma - who probably are at least as big as Premier.

 

[Magdalia]

Herts itself doesn't mean much though, it's a red herring of a topic here

Not really, because it is the County Council that is responsible for local transport policy.

St Albans isn't one of the "two most important places" in the county

But you haven't defined your metric. For a county like Hertfordshire, with no dominant economic centres, "most important places" is subjective, depending on the criteria chosen.

From an economic, shopping or even housing perspective Stevenage, Hemel or even Hatfield are more important.

For shopping, it is Welwyn Garden that has John Lewis, though I think it has lost its M+S. Stevenage was already a dump for retail before the pandemic as its main shops were BHS and Debenhams.

But for most of the south of the county the most important retail is Brent Cross, which isn't in Hertfordshire.

And yet the A414 is used by 50k vehicles every day, which would suggest that there is a fair amount of demand for cross-county travel.

The A414 between Hatfield and Watford is de facto part of the M25. From the Fens it has been part of the route from the A1(M) to the M4 and M3 since before the M25 was built.

 

[A0]

Some clearly is long distance, but the volumes joining and leaving at each junction, and everyone who uses the M1 between J5 and J6 to avoid north Watford shows there is a fair amount of local traffic.

Well, for those not familiar - Junc 6 of the M1 is where the A405 (the A405 and A414 form the 'north orbital road) meets the M1 at Bricket Wood, Junc 5 is the Watford / A41 junction.

If you're heading for the centre of Watford, it makes perfect sense to go Jn 6 > 5 (or vice versa if you're heading away). The alternative is to pick your way up St Albans Road which is single carriageway and a 30mph limit. It's much quicker to drop down the M1 for 1 junction - in fact the road signs at the junction send you onto the M1 if you want Watford, or keep you on the A414 if you want North Watford.

I'd say, from personal experience, the bulk of the local traffic which is using the A405 is actually heading for the M25 at Hunton Bridge, which used to be my trick if I was heading anti-clockwise on the M25. I didn't bother going down the A1 to South Mimms or onto the M25 at J21A - it was shorter and quicker (even with the lower speed limit) to go through North Watford.

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For shopping, it is Welwyn Garden that has John Lewis, though I think it has lost its M+S. Stevenage was already a dump for retail before the pandemic as its main shops were BHS and Debenhams.

But for most of the south of the county the most important retail is Brent Cross, which isn't in Hertfordshire.

You're right about Welwyn Garden - but John Lewis is all that it does have now. That's the problem - and it's entirely historic. Welwyn Department Stores and subsequently John Lewis have been a blessing and a curse - it's a pull, but it's also prevented any competition from setting up and being successful in Welwyn GC.

I agree Stevenage town centre is a dump - but M&S who had moved out of Stevenage town centre are now on Roaring Meg to the south (they took over the newish unit which Debenhams had opened). So Roaring Meg is really the main shopping are in Stevenage now.

I'm not sure Brent Cross is the pull it once was though. Perhaps for Borehamwood / Elstree which has nothing else, maybe Potters Bar. But I'm not convinced that's the case for Watford, Hemel or Hatfield for example.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's recent on the cinema - looking on line it's in the old (Odeon, Cannon ? can't remember which now) on London Road which had been closed for a good few years.

It reopened in 2014. Wonderful place.

But is St Peter's Street heaving with shoppers as it was in the 1990s ? Probably not, though I notice M&S are still there, if I were a betting man, given M&S's published strategy, I'd give that shop a couple of years at best, particularly as they've got a huge unit at London Colney, just on the edge of St Albans.

It is! on market days (Weds, Saturdays in particular, and some Sundays) you can barely move if it’s not raining. Happily the last pound shop on the street closed a couple of weeks ago, and I suspect that unit will be turned over to something more attractive.

No chance of that M&S closing. It does a very good trade; in my experience it’s busier for food than the adjacent Tesco.

Nevertheless, I imagine the number of passengers using the Abbey Line To access these shops (for work or leisure) will be a one handed count.

 

[A0]

It is! on market days (Weds, Saturdays in particular, and some Sundays) you can barely move if it’s not raining. Happily the last pound shop on the street closed a couple of weeks ago, and I suspect that unit will be turned over to something more attractive.

No chance of that M&S closing. It does a very good trade; in my experience it’s busier for food than the adjacent Tesco.

Nevertheless, I imagine the number of passengers using the Abbey Line To access these shops (for work or leisure) will be a one handed count.

It's good that the market still survives - that's something which used to attract people.

I wouldn't be too confident on M&S though - they've publicly stated their plans to reduce their estate by closing 67 of their "full line" stores by 2028 down from 247 to 180.

Given they have the London Colney store in close proximity, I could easily see St Albans going and being replaced with a smaller food only store.

On Abbey station - I don't get why people think it can somehow become a major transport hub. It's only convenient for Cottonmill and St Stephen's - for the rest of St Albans it's at the bottom of a steep hill - totally useless if you live in Batchwood or Marshalswick for example. And it's no better when you get to Watford as Junction isn't brilliantly located.

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It reopened in 2014. Wonderful place.

Google Streetview has it all boarded up in 2014..... Looks like it was open by 2017 though.

 

[Richardr]

Back on topic - in economic terms, Watford, Hemel, Stevenage and Hatfield - all have more jobs in their area than St Albans does. In Leisure terms - history aside, I suspect 3 of those exceed St Albans - Hatfield's the odd one out there, though the Galleria is something of a pull if you like outlet shopping and it must be the closest cinema for St Albans as well.

In terms of cinema, ignoring for a minute the Odyssey, not driving I find the most convenient multiplex from St Albans Luton - about five minutes walk from the station, and plenty of Luton - St Albans trains in the late evening, something, to get to the point of this conversation, that can't be said for buses or trains from Hatfield, Hemel, or Watford.

 

[A0]

In terms of cinema, ignoring for a minute the Odyssey, not driving I find the most convenient multiplex from St Albans Luton - about five minutes walk from the station, and plenty of Luton - St Albans trains in the late evening, something, to get to the point of this conversation, that can't be said for buses or trains from Hatfield, Hemel, or Watford.

A fair point - but you can overlook the fact that my comment was which is closest, and Hatfield is closer to St Albans than either Watford, Hemel or Luton.

 

[Alfie1014]

It's good that the market still survives - that's something which used to attract people.

I wouldn't be too confident on M&S though - they've publicly stated their plans to reduce their estate by closing 67 of their "full line" stores by 2028 down from 247 to 180.

Given they have the London Colney store in close proximity, I could easily see St Albans going and being replaced with a smaller food only store.

On Abbey station - I don't get why people think it can somehow become a major transport hub. It's only convenient for Cottonmill and St Stephen's - for the rest of St Albans it's at the bottom of a steep hill - totally useless if you live in Batchwood or Marshalswick for example. And it's no better when you get to Watford as Junction isn't brilliantly located.

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Google Streetview has it all boarded up in 2014..... Looks like it was open by 2017 though.

I agree about M&S, they seem to have abandoned their early this century Plan A environmental aspirations and where their older city centre property needs upgrading they frequently take the easier (for them) option of moving out of town, see Hull, Northampton, Colchester.

 

[cle]

Not really, because it is the County Council that is responsible for local transport policy.

Yes but just because they lobby/support intra-County links, that doesn't create demand. My point is more that county thinking, loyalty, employment, county towns, county usage in addresses etc - has faded with the coming of unitary authorities and really doesn't extend far beyond cricket teams!

One thing not mentioned (although very car dependent) - and did put Watford back on the map, is Cost Co! Was the first and I think still the HQ. Brought people from across NW London too, until Wembley recently opened. Top Golf was another similar attraction. Harry Potter is latterly another source of inbound visitors, especially off-peak/counter.

The JL/Trewins is really a shame, but it's a national issue for them. There is one the other direction in M40ish-Wycombe too (I think, still) - so the better heeled folks of Ricky, Amersham etc I'm sure just hit that up