A1SLT Big Announcement: Future Projects

[Phil.]

No mention of length of rake that I can see in the announcement so I would suggest they will not be sticking 12 MK.3s on the drawbar. When Bittern did her 90mph runs back in 2013 the rakes were shorter than was the norm. If the A1SLT are serious about 90mph running, I doubt they'll load the loco so much that she struggles to get there.

A1, "struggle to get there". Dear chap, an A1 is about the same power on the drawbar as a 47. There'll be no struggling to get to 90 with a ten coach rake of Mk IIIs weighing about 350 - 360 tons.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, this is big. I'm not going to lie, I had to make sure it wasn't April 1st when I first read it, but it all looks legitimate.

https://www.a1steam.com/2016/10/04/tornado-get-state-o-art-charter-train/

Rather than quote the whole thing here, as it's quite long, I'm going to summarise:

1. The A1SLT is planning to create a new charter train for Tornado (and presumably Prince of Wales from loco-hauled MK3 stock released from the Anglia franchise. This new train will include a kitchen car, a new support coach, a service vehicle for a generator and crew accommodation and extra water capacity to extend Tornado's range.
   
2. They are also planning to start 90mph testing with Tornado with a view to running it at that speed on selected routes on the Mainline, with testing to start in Spring 2017. They apparently have DB Cargo's full support with this.
   
3. The trust would like to move to a new base elsewhere in Darlington with a Mainline connection and more space for locomotive construction and maintenance etc. They would also like the site to potentially have room for a turntable and carriage shed for the new train, and are in discussions with the relevant authorities already.
   
4. Finally, the Trust has decided that the next engine to be built following 2007 will be a Gresley V4 2-6-2 mixed traffic engine, followed by a V3 2-6-2 tank engine. Design work on the V4 will start in the next 12 months using 3D CAD.

Quite an announcement - probably the most ambitious and ground-breaking in New Build history since Tornado itself. I'm excited to see how this pans out.

I don't know how much work will be required to use a set of MK3s with Tornado - or what one would do about a brake coach, as no MK3 brake coaches were built. Perhaps convert a TGS?

Looking at Google Earth, I'm wondering if the new site may have something to do with the Head of Steam museum's site... There have been plans to close it for a while - maybe this could be a way of preserving heritage and using the land around the site? I'm just speculating. Either way, it'll be fascinating to watch things develop.

Very interesting news - I hope they pull it off.

I am interested in their proposals for a new operating base and am very happy to see they still aim to be based in Darlington. It should be noted the Hopetown Carriage Works ( where A1 Trust & NELPG live) are themselves are historic buildings that should be preserved.

 

[alexl92]

Very interesting news - I hope they pull it off.

I am interested in their proposals for a new operating base and am very happy to see they still aim to be based in Darlington. It should be noted the Hopetown Carriage Works ( where A1 Trust & NELPG live) are themselves are historic buildings that should be preserved.

I'm sure they won't bin the Hopetown Works altogether; it would be a waste of everything they've invested in it so far. I wonder if Hopetown could become some kind of museum...?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure they won't bin the Hopetown Works altogether; it would be a waste of everything they've invested in it so far. I wonder if Hopetown could become some kind of museum...?

there is already a museum over the road.................

( i think the Hopetown shed is actually owned by the council and sub let)

 

[2392]

Speaking of the A1SLT looking for a new larger site to expand their operation onto. There is plenty of derelict "Brown Field" former industrial land across the line, on the opposite side of North Road Station to Hopetown Works. As well as a large area of former railway siding land still I presume belonging to Network Rail.

 

[Flying Phil]

The LNER streamlined sets had underfloor fairings vaguely similar to those of the Mk3, although very different in other ways such as being articulated and having windows right up to the cantrail. But perhaps all-over silver or two-tone blue would be the livery to go for?

....and a beaver-tail rear coach??

 

[Cowley]

....and a beaver-tail rear coach??

DVT with a bit of Polyfiller?

 

[Spamcan81]

A1, "struggle to get there". Dear chap, an A1 is about the same power on the drawbar as a 47. There'll be no struggling to get to 90 with a ten coach rake of Mk IIIs weighing about 350 - 360 tons.

Read my post carefully "dear chap". I was replying to another poster who suggested 60163 may be a sluggard in getting strain up to 90. Hence my remark that the A1SLT would be unlikely to overload to the extent that she would struggle, nit that she would struggle no matter what the train length.

 

[Helvellyn]

Are any of the Irish Rail generator coaches still intact (excluding those refurbished for the Enterprise services)? Modifying one of those could be the way of getting the brake accommodation and ETH supply in one coach. Plus possibly remove one generator set and replace it with a water tank.

Or, as others have mentioned, modify a Class 442 motor car. The Irish Rail generator cars were the basis for producing these (much stronger body), so could be a good starting point for a conversion.

 

[Phil.]

Read my post carefully "dear chap". I was replying to another poster who suggested 60163 may be a sluggard in getting strain up to 90. Hence my remark that the A1SLT would be unlikely to overload to the extent that she would struggle, nit that she would struggle no matter what the train length.

Fair enough.

 

[NSEFAN]

DDA compliance - Doors especially, tho Chiltern has proved this can be done

Out of interest, why would DDA compliance be an issue? The train would not be for public services.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It's been done to the Sleepers in the Royal Scotsman as well:

http://shed83a.smugmug.com/keyword/bath;10541/i-FHrSTJV/A

( Not my photo ).

Suppose with wimdows like that the need to maintain aircon would be diminished
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cue paint wibble. Should be interesting as 'authentic' for the Mk3s is either BR blue and grey or InterCity. Mind you, Hosking has painted his air-con Mk2s in blood and custard ...

And GNER, GWT Merlin, FGW fag packet, FGW Dynamic Lines, FSR sleeper, GWT green, Virgin red, Virgin Grey, XC grey, VTEC stripes, Midland Mainline teal, MML Blue Blocks, Stagecoach, National Express, GA red stripe, GC black, scotrail saltire, NMT yellow....

Think thats all of the "genuine" liveries, the only colours I didnt mention was NSE.....

Oh, wait. 442's are mk3!

 

[edwin_m]

Out of interest, why would DDA compliance be an issue? The train would not be for public services.

Every business has to make "reasonable" adjustments to maximise accessibility. In the case of a company doing a major re-build of some relatively modern rolling stock, I think it would be considered reasonable to apply the PRM-TSI, whether or not it is mandatory in this situation.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

Are any of the Irish Rail generator coaches still intact (excluding those refurbished for the Enterprise services)? Modifying one of those could be the way of getting the brake accommodation and ETH supply in one coach. Plus possibly remove one generator set and replace it with a water tank.

Or, as others have mentioned, modify a Class 442 motor car. The Irish Rail generator cars were the basis for producing these (much stronger body), so could be a good starting point for a conversion.

One does - 7607, but proposed for PWD work (as it has been for about the last 3-4 years without being touched). No gen sets in it and quite a few issues as it's been standing outside for a number of years.

Interesting announcement and one to keep an eye on (even as a non-steam person)

 

[CosherB]

Just pick one of the to-be-ex AGA TSOs or FOs and convert it to a generator car when it comes available. Simples!

Whilst common sense would say that 415V ETS would be 'easier' to provide, I think a 1000V DC supply would negate any changes to the electrical gubbins in the proposed Mk3 rake and would leave it available for hire with haulage by a standard ETS diesel or electric loco.

 

[edwin_m]

Just pick one of the to-be-ex AGA TSOs or FOs and convert it to a generator car when it comes available. Simples!

Probably can't accommodate a heavy diesel and generator without major structural changes, including doing something to the roof to make a hole big enough to lower the equipment in without the coach collapsing. The Mk3 conversions for Eurostar sleeper generators were apparently a fairly big job (but are any of those still around?).

 

[ainsworth74]

Probably can't accommodate a heavy diesel and generator without major structural changes, including doing something to the roof to make a hole big enough to lower the equipment in without the coach collapsing. The Mk3 conversions for Eurostar sleeper generators were apparently a fairly big job (but are any of those still around?).

There is an old Nightstar generator vehicle sat outside of Doncaster Works. No idea on the condition though as its been sat there for a long long time.

 

[CosherB]

The Nightstar generator vehicles were built from ex-SLEP carriages, so not an insurmountable task I'd have thought for other Mk3 stock to be converted (I don't doubt it's an expensive job!).

http://www.departmentals.com/photo.php?photo=96373

Interestingly, Abrail has four of the Nighstar generator cars as being owned by DRS hock: with the fifth at Wabtec Doncaster, as already quoted.

 

[theageofthetra]

Isn't there an issue with certain types of MK3 being used on the third rail?- when GW are on occasion diverted into Waterloo doesn't a certain type of HST bogie have to be in the rake?

If they are going down the growing and very profitable 'Land Cruise' route then being able to meet the cruise ship market at Southampton is going to be key. The provision of aircon is also going to vital to the bigget area of potential demand for these land cruises- visitors from Asia who see it as essential .

I really hope this idea works out for them and it shows some real vision in attracting the mostly untapted market for 'normals' on railtours in the UK.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Posted on here numerous times but yes you are right. Mk3 have to have what are called short swing link bogies, as the long swing links can contact the 3rd rail. DVT bogies as fitted to the mk3 derived 442's are also suitable.

 

[alexl92]

Posted on here numerous times but yes you are right. Mk3 have to have what are called short swing link bogies, as the long swing links can contact the 3rd rail. DVT bogies as fitted to the mk3 derived 442's are also suitable.

So what you're saying is 442s are perfect...

 

[Townsend Hook]

So what you're saying is 442s are perfect...

Would make the generator situtation easier, just need a 73 or 33/1 in the formation

 

[theblackwatch]

Think thats all of the "genuine" liveries, the only colours I didnt mention was NSE.....

Oh, wait. 442's are mk3!

And there was a HST coach (40516 from memory) in NSE livery for a while too, done as a trial pre 442 I think.

 

[Townsend Hook]

And there was a HST coach (40516 from memory) in NSE livery for a while too, done as a trial pre 442 I think.

Indeed, quickly mocked up at Litchurch Lane to show the public more or less what the new trains would be like.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

So what you're saying is 442s are perfect...

Now, now. Putting words in my mouth....

I cant possibly comment on their mass appeal and almost universal useability.......

 

[edwin_m]

Do Mk3 loco-hauled stock have the SSL bogies? I don't recall them running on the Southern much, though they would presumably have been cleared for the dual-electrified bit into Euston.

 

[MarkyT]

Regarding the dreaded 442s. If the bodies were scrapped, the bogies might be suitable for reclamation and use under standard loco hauled Mk3 trailers to allow them to run in the south over DC lines, assuming they can't already. By definition, the 442 bogies must be 3rd rail compatible.

Another thought. If necessary, can the long link bogie variant be converted easily/affordably to the short link design?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Do Mk3 loco-hauled stock have the SSL bogies? I don't recall them running on the Southern much, though they would presumably have been cleared for the dual-electrified bit into Euston.

I personally dont know, but would have thought so for the exact reason you give, unless they were banned from certain platforms. Sure a quick gander thru the sectional appendix will answer that
Edit:-

Cant find any mention of bogie restrictions but there are restrictions to power operated door modified mk3. HST comes under locos as class 43. Interestingly mk3 have clearance to operate parts of merseyrail and mk4 has WCML clearance.

 

[alexl92]

I personally dont know, but would have thought so for the exact reason you give, unless they were banned from certain platforms. Sure a quick gander thru the sectional appendix will answer that
Edit:-

Cant find any mention of bogie restrictions but there are restrictions to power operated door modified mk3. HST comes under locos as class 43. Interestingly mk3 have clearance to operate parts of merseyrail and mk4 has WCML clearance.

Have MkIVs ever operated on the West Coast?

 

[sprinterguy]

Have MkIVs ever operated on the West Coast?

There were several Intercity 225 "Awarness Specials" over the West Coast route during the summer of 1993. I was only previously aware of them operating between Euston and Manchester, but the Train Testing website suggests that they also ran to Liverpool, Carlisle and Glasgow (photo of a set at Winwick here: http://www.traintesting.com/images/91001 at Winwick 1993 AS.jpg). A 225 set also undertook a fast run from Euston to Manchester at the end of April 1992, subsequently being returned to Bounds Green via Birmingham New Street behind a class 90.

Also, for the last few years on selected weekends during September/October, 225 sets have operated under their own power between Carlisle and Edinburgh over West Coast metals, during the annual engineering works on the ECML north of Newcastle.