A way in to driving

[TMLB UK]

As the rest of you are I'm tire of waiting for trainee driver positions to come up in my area. I've applied for one in a year and failed the managers interview. However a shunter job came available but I didn't bother applying as it was a wage drop plus nights. Anyway my job is an electrical engineer and I've just noticed a job goin at my local depot for a skilled team member. Im tempted to go for it but wanted to know if this is a common step up to being a driver. Also would love to hear from any one working in depots in a maintenance role. I'm thinking this would be my chance to get at the internal postings!!

Any advice appreciates as usual

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I personally know several people who have moved from the shed to the footplate if that is any help. I came into the driving grade via several other jobs on the railway, so I am one of those people who will say that once you are in then it is quite possible to move about.

Drivers jobs are highly sought after though. There can be hundreds, if not thousands of applications for every vacancy. You have to admit to yourself (as does every qualified driver) that there is a huge element of luck involved in getting the job.

 

[TDK]

As the rest of you are I'm tire of waiting for trainee driver positions to come up in my area. I've applied for one in a year and failed the managers interview. However a shunter job came available but I didn't bother applying as it was a wage drop plus nights. Anyway my job is an electrical engineer and I've just noticed a job goin at my local depot for a skilled team member. Im tempted to go for it but wanted to know if this is a common step up to being a driver. Also would love to hear from any one working in depots in a maintenance role. I'm thinking this would be my chance to get at the internal postings!!

Any advice appreciates as usual

From what you have posted you may need to be more flexible with you approach hence this is probably the reason you failed the managers interview, considering the climate at the moment the best oportunity for you to get into the drivers grade is to think about the possibility of relocating, as for the wage drop when training and for the first 2 years and sometimes 3 you will not be on the advertised fully qualified drivers wage anyway however if you took a job say as a guard and then got into driver training you would remain on the wage you are currently on. If you failed the managers interview the first time the interview would have been the same even if you was progressing from a different grade, because you are already working on the railway does not give you a major advantage.

 

[TMLB UK]

Thanks for the advice. I could be very flexible if the role for a trainee came up because i am almost (depending on passing the course) guarenteed the final salery. However for the shunters job or the guards job there is no guarentee that id get a drivers job, therefore the money is a big problem because of what i earn now and what my outgoings are. The maintenance role in the depot is around what i earn and i could put up with shifts again with the hope that i have more chance of getting a drivers job working in the railway and for the company. My only concern is the job itself, is depot maintenance a good role, is it challenging and rewarding? Id love to hear from someone doing a similar role. I spoke to a few people on here who put me of the shunters role immidiately and i was as close to applying for that as i am this one.

 

[notadriver]

Why does everyone seem to want to be a driver anyway ?

 

[GB]

Most depots have a waiting list for a drivers position so when you join you will find yourself at the bottom of the queue. As a result and depending on the amount of people, you could find you have a very long wait...usually a number of years unless you are really lucky.

As for the pay as TDK says, most companies stagger the pay so as a trainee you will either get paid the advertised trainee wage which is often quite low, or if you are internal you will get paid your current rate untill you pass out. Once passed out your wage will be increased incrementally year on year untill you are on the fully qualified drivers rate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why does everyone seem to want to be a driver anyway ?

Why not?

 

[TMLB UK]

You see i could put up with this role for a number of years as long as theres no hidden troubles within the job title! I thought the depot driver would have been great untill someone pointed out a few extra duties and horror stories that put me off it completely. I couldnt have managed that role for a number of years.

If this role is maintaining the traction units then i cant see why i wouldnt enjoy the job, i maintain similar diesel generators now. Theres got to be more chance of me getting into driving working for the TOC in a safety critical role than what im doing now waiting for trainee jobs.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Most depots have a waiting list for a drivers position so when you join you will find yourself at the bottom of the queue. As a result and depending on the amount of people, you could find you have a very long wait...usually a number of years unless you are really lucky.

The Human Rights act of 1998 made seniority lists a thing of the past. It is illegal to discriminate against somebody "on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status."

For some strange reason you will still see people post seniority lists in notice cases in mess rooms but they dont actually mean anything. Yes, a lot of people who grew up with seniority lists have it engrained within them that they do still apply, and you might find that for minor things (ie, who gets to go on a route learning first or something) then people will use a seniority list because they have to come up with some kind of schedule for the depot and that way is as good as any, but for major things like who gets to take the drivers job then everybody who expresses an interest has to be treated equally. You might be waiting a while for a vacancy to crop up and/or the company to do a drivers training course, but you cant be denied consideration for that course on the basis of time served once you have completed your trial period at your place of employment. The person who has been there one year gets treated the same as the person who has been there ten.

For the same reasons you have as much chance of getting a drivers job "off the street" as you do from being promoted within. The advantages of already being on the railway are that its much easier to keep your ear close to the ground, you can find out who is taking on, who is laying off, who is opening a new depot (etc) ages before it ever makes the press or websites like this. You also get experience on the railway and if you are on the maintenance side of things then you have a massive head start on every driver when it comes to knowledge of traction. Drivers are expected to have a decent understanding of how things work and what to isolate to get moving again should they break down on the main line, all stuff which a fitter can do standing on their head. The downside of being in another grade is you might have difficulty getting released from your position to go driving if you are moving within a company. How that weighs against the up sides is down for the individual to decide.

As has been said earlier, there is no magic formula to guarantee a drivers job. Demand far outstrips supply, and there is a large element of luck involved because there are plenty of people who would make great drivers who get turned down every year simply because of the supply and demand thing. I wish the OP the very best of luck in getting a drivers job, and personally I would say that taking a job in maintenance is a good foot in the door but there are no right or wrong answers in the best way of getting what you want. C'est la vie and everything.

 

[TMLB UK]

Thanks for that Cherry Picker.

I do think id enjoy working on the units nearly as much as driving so ive pretty much made my mind up that im going to give it a go. I may find that i enjoy it so much that i forget i ever wanted to drive them!
Im sure oppertunities will arise within the depot and for that reason im going to give the application a go.
I do still want to hear from someone within just in case the jobs an absolute mare but looking at the pay it seems a fairly well repsected role. I cant see it being all that bad.

Any more advice is still appreciated guys.

 

[387star]

*opportunity :P

 

[TMLB UK]

*opportunity :P

1 star oppertunity doesnt sound good....

i need ***** oppertunity!

 

[Legzr1]

For some strange reason you will still see people post seniority lists in notice cases in mess rooms but they dont actually mean anything.

That's strange.

I know of at least 5 freight drivers who sought legal advice when they were about to be made redundant based on seniority.

Not heard from 3 but 2 dropped the case at the first hurdle.

 

[GB]

There are two people at the same company doing the same job at the same location, both with clean records and reputations going for one position. One applicant has been with the company 3 years and the other 1 year...how is it decided who gets the job?

On paper seniority is no longer used, but is this actually the case in practice or just disguised as something else?

 

[HST Power]

Why does everyone seem to want to be a driver anyway ?

Let me see....

1) A salary of about £30k plus (after training) possibly even up to forty or fifty if you end up driving the HST's or Eurostars.

2) In most cases, drivers only work a four day week.

3) Free rail travel for you and your partner on most other TOC's. (it may just be you, I think it varies)

4) It's a dream come true for most kids, having spent their childhoods sitting by the railway gasping at locomotives and HST's roaring along the line.

5) Freedom! Instead of sitting behind a desk, pushing pens and blotting paper for some ghastly banking cooperation, you're sitting in a cab, chugging along and watching the world go by......(OK, it's not quite as cushy as that!)

 

[Redahead]

One other point very much worth considering, which is, clearly, only my humble opinion, is that many of those who choose to take non-driving grades with a view to becoming a driver through the internal route, quickly become their own worst enemy when the hoped-for opportunity doesn't come along quickly enough.

The result of this appears to me to be that people who are in a role (typically that of conductor) which has pretty much a completely different skill set than that which is required for driving, also quickly gain an attitude that can be seen from miles away - "External candidates got the job, so why can't I? I'm a victim." This is a double whammy. A large number of aspiring drivers do not seem to know that there is almost NO overlap between a customer facing job and a driving job - safety critical or otherwise: however, recruiters do know this. It is only the peripheral skills such as appearance and reliability that are transferable, so if the person has allowed an attitude to develop, then overall, this is more negative than positive.

I see this time and again and it stands out like a black cloud over that person's head. I really really think that many people would have been better served by applying directly for the job they wanted, when it came up, and not getting embroiled and perhaps trapped in a second or third best role (in their minds) - albeit a valuable and crucial, relatively well-paid role in many cases.

Slight ramble, but something which isn't raised enough, I believe. Absolutely no offence intended to anyone - just an observation from the footplate which I hope will assist applicants' decision making.

Regards,

R

 

[E&W Lucas]

One other point very much worth considering, which is, clearly, only my humble opinion, is that many of those who choose to take non-driving grades with a view to becoming a driver through the internal route, quickly become their own worst enemy when the hoped-for opportunity doesn't come along quickly enough.

The result of this appears to me to be that people who are in a role (typically that of conductor) which has pretty much a completely different skill set than that which is required for driving, also quickly gain an attitude that can be seen from miles away - "External candidates got the job, so why can't I? I'm a victim." This is a double whammy. A large number of aspiring drivers do not seem to know that there is almost NO overlap between a customer facing job and a driving job - safety critical or otherwise: however, recruiters do know this. It is only the peripheral skills such as appearance and reliability that are transferable, so if the person has allowed an attitude to develop, then overall, this is more negative than positive.

I see this time and again and it stands out like a black cloud over that person's head. I really really think that many people would have been better served by applying directly for the job they wanted, when it came up, and not getting embroiled and perhaps trapped in a second or third best role (in their minds) - albeit a valuable and crucial, relatively well-paid role in many cases.

Slight ramble, but something which isn't raised enough, I believe. Absolutely no offence intended to anyone - just an observation from the footplate which I hope will assist applicants' decision making.

Regards,

R

I will gladly second your observations. I've made similar on here previously, but sadly, it's not what some want to hear. I started my driving career with one of the unit operators, who trained in considerable numbers. 90+% external recruitment, directly into driving. DOO work, so no guards to look at, and to be brutally honest, most of the other internal staff were not of a caliber to be considered, and for the most part they weren't (beyond a token gesture of a preliminary interview).


As for being a fitter - it's a good secure career, and the skilled ones are earning serious money. Go for it!

 

[trainofhope]

Why does everyone seem to want to be a driver anyway ?

Because of the poor pay and conditions

Job satisfaction.

Key in key out job

erm not sure....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As the rest of you are I'm tire of waiting for trainee driver positions to come up in my area. I've applied for one in a year and failed the managers interview. However a shunter job came available but I didn't bother applying as it was a wage drop plus nights. Anyway my job is an electrical engineer and I've just noticed a job goin at my local depot for a skilled team member. Im tempted to go for it but wanted to know if this is a common step up to being a driver. Also would love to hear from any one working in depots in a maintenance role. I'm thinking this would be my chance to get at the internal postings!!

Any advice appreciates as usual

second sentance :roll:

 

[387star]

1 star oppertunity doesnt sound good....

i need ***** oppertunity!

Meant the spelling lol don't worry though I've spelt it wrong in the past!

 

[TMLB UK]

Because of the poor pay and conditions

Job satisfaction.

Key in key out job

erm not sure....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


second sentance :roll:

What about it? Please explain
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks to all the others who have posted some interesting reads.

I still think I'll give the application a go after all I do similar work now only id get more satisfaction out of working on traction units. Its just a step towards my goal. If I never get my goal then I'll hopefully make a good job of a maintenance man still working in a place I'd enjoy.

 

[notadriver]

I will gladly second your observations. I've made similar on here previously, but sadly, it's not what some want to hear. I started my driving career with one of the unit operators, who trained in considerable numbers. 90+% external recruitment, directly into driving. DOO work, so no guards to look at, and to be brutally honest, most of the other internal staff were not of a caliber to be considered, and for the most part they weren't (beyond a token gesture of a preliminary interview).


As for being a fitter - it's a good secure career, and the skilled ones are earning serious money. Go for it!

You are both external applicants so it's not surprising you would both agree with each other. I think to say being a Guard or Conductor is of little relevance to the drivers job is a mistake. I think if they have the right attitude they have an advantage when it comes to doing the driver course as some of the material they will know already. There was a previous debate about whether a Guard or a tube driver would be more suitable for the trainee driver position.
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I'm a firm believer in that I believe the way they recruit tube drivers internally is correct. You should have to do a customer facing role first before applying for driver. External driver applicants can't really appreciate what that role is like without actually doing it in my humble opinion.

 

[BestWestern]

You are both external applicants so it's not surprising you would both agree with each other. I think to say being a Guard or Conductor is of little relevance to the drivers job is a mistake. I think if they have the right attitude they have an advantage when it comes to doing the driver course as some of the material they will know already. There was a previous debate about whether a Guard or a tube driver would be more suitable for the trainee driver position.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm a firm believer in that I believe the way they recruit tube drivers internally is correct. You should have to do a customer facing role first before applying for driver. External driver applicants can't really appreciate what that role is like without actually doing it in my humble opinion.

I'd agree that there is a clear overlap between Guard and Driver, although being a Guard doesn't automatically pre-qualify somebody as a suitable Driver, any more than some Drivers would be skilled to deal with a train full of delayed passengers or a group of abusive idiots. The safety critical nature of both jobs requires concentration, attention to detail and an ability to handle unexpected and challenging situations in a calm and regulated manner, and anybody working in either role should (in theory!) have those qualities. However, certain groups of people - particularly ex-forces - will have other skills picked up in their previous careers which are helpful when training for a Driving role, like being particularly focussed and disciplined, and it's worth remembering that there are good reasons for recruiting from within these fields, as the railways do.

The railway does fairly well in terms of internal promotion, and whilst all jobs are advertised externally, as they have to be, many Drivers will be recruited from within, as will many Guards. It does make sense, and it's always good to see. I also agree that some seem to adopt a belief that they are owed a position as a Driver, in my experience this tends to be those who have passed assesments but failed at an interview stage, as there is a popular misunderstanding that passing the tests guaruntees the job. I do know of some colleagues however who had passed all stages only to be told that their intake had been cancelled and they were expected to just wait and wait, with some eventually having to re-start the process all over again. Not a fair situation.

 

[TMLB UK]

I really cant see me getting into the job i want just waiting around for it. I feel that this will be a positive step in the right direction, its the only other job id settle for on the railway... mainly due to the pay. Im doing similar maintenance work now only on a 9-5 basis, if i want to be a driver i need to get used to the shifts anyway.
I cant see why i wouldnt have a distinct advantage working in this safety critical role getting to know the various units inside out - over someone from 'off the street' . If nothing comes up for a number of years then so be it, ill hopefully have a successful career as a 'fitter'..... This is all if i get an interview for the role then get the job!!

I cant relocate due to circumstances so if i want to become a driver i know im going to have to do more than just wait for a trainee post to become available. I need to get that advantage and to do this i think getting into a maintenance role at the depot would be a positive step.

Hopefully i make the right decision anyway and not one ill regret. Its a lottery like some of you say.... well i just bought a few extra tickets.

 

[Redahead]

I also agree that some seem to adopt a belief that they are owed a position as a Driver, in my experience this tends to be those who have passed assesments but failed at an interview stage, as there is a popular misunderstanding that passing the tests guaruntees the job. I do know of some colleagues however who had passed all stages only to be told that their intake had been cancelled and they were expected to just wait and wait, with some eventually having to re-start the process all over again. Not a fair situation.

You're dead right - and what many fail to realise is that while being an internal applicant may allow one direct access to the tests and interviews without the tedious pre-qualifier of an application form, the ultimate standard required is no lower, and the competition just as fierce from very experienced and/or well qualified applicants both internal and external.

Finally, we could debate skills overlap until the cows come home, but having "been there and done that" through driver training with some internally promoted candidates [and said from the position of, er, being a driver], the fact of (e.g.) conductors having already covered PTS, bell and buzzer codes and emergency protection bits of driver theory training really is neither here nor there when it comes to success or failure as a driver - that's about three days' worth of training, and about the easiest part of the course. I'd reiterate the point that an applicant would be well advised to ensure that they unequivocally want to do the original job that they apply for - whatever their ultimate goal. Happily it sounds like this is very much the case for the OP and very best of luck to that person, who appears to be considering their approach to this very carefully. That fact alone is a distinguishing feature already.

Just wanted to try and help by adding some actual driver input. I know I was dying for any view from the inside when I was applying a few years ago.

Regards,

R

 

[TMLB UK]

You're dead right - and what many fail to realise is that while being an internal applicant may allow one direct access to the tests and interviews without the tedious pre-qualifier of an application form, the ultimate standard required is no lower, and the competition just as fierce from very experienced and/or well qualified applicants both internal and external.

Finally, we could debate skills overlap until the cows come home, but having "been there and done that" through driver training with some internally promoted candidates [and said from the position of, er, being a driver], the fact of (e.g.) conductors having already covered PTS, bell and buzzer codes and emergency protection bits of driver theory training really is neither here nor there when it comes to success or failure as a driver - that's about three days' worth of training, and about the easiest part of the course. I'd reiterate the point that an applicant would be well advised to ensure that they unequivocally want to do the original job that they apply for - whatever their ultimate goal. Happily it sounds like this is very much the case for the OP and very best of luck to that person, who appears to be considering their approach to this very carefully. That fact alone is a distinguishing feature already.

Just wanted to try and help by adding some actual driver input. I know I was dying for any view from the inside when I was applying a few years ago.

Regards,

R

Some excellent advice has been posted in this thread and I'm pleased that it's opened some debate which helps me understand various aspects of the industry.

I am excited about the thought of traincare at this depot. I'd be getting up close and personal with the various units around the depot. I'm always going to be in the thick of things at a depot. If I got this job, which is still a big if, at least I'm in the industry I'm most interested in. Second to this if I do get a chance at the drivers job I've got engineering experience from outside the railway plus (hopefully) safety critical hands on experience inside the railway.

I do know this is going to be a long hard slog but i know that I need to give myself the best chance possible and this, I feel is a perfect opportunity for me.

 

[HST Power]

I do know this is going to be a long hard slog but i know that I need to give myself the best chance possible and this, I feel is a perfect opportunity for me.

If you work hard, you'll get the success. If you think this position is perfect for you, then go for it, and good luck!

 

[notadriver]

Definitely go for the job. Those with railway experience find the Drivers course easier than those who had none at all.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Definitely go for the job. Those with railway experience find the Drivers course easier than those who had none at all.

That statement is totally untrue. Trainability is down to the attitude, effort and aptitude of the candidate. Over the last few years, I've seen more internal candidates fail to complete the training, or come unstuck soon after, than I have external.

This thread was opened by a gentleman asking for advice on whether to take a particular job, in order to facilitate his ultimate aim of becoming a driver. Two people who have already achieved that goal, have clearly said that the overlap with other railway jobs is minimal. If those other jobs are better than what he is doing right now, then go for them, but for their own sake, and not in some belief that it will help him become a driver.

To those asking for objective advice - Beware of those trying to become drivers, (or those who are unable to become one), posting what they think would be fairer, or those attempting to "serve their time" into the driving grade, who think that everyone else should have to do the same.

 

[notadriver]

That statement is totally untrue. Trainability is down to the attitude, effort and aptitude of the candidate. Over the last few years, I've seen more internal candidates fail to complete the training, or come unstuck soon after, than I have external.

And I've seen 95% of candidates pass the drivers course once they are on it. The main problem internal trainees seem to have is a 'know it all' attitude which can lead to complacency - so attitude is most important for them.

Two people who have already achieved that goal, have clearly said that the overlap with other railway jobs is minimal. If those other jobs are better than what he is doing right now, then go for them, but for their own sake, and not in some belief that it will help him become a driver.

And those two people have never worked in the railway previously and gone straight for driver. So without having any experience of other safety critical roles such as Conductor/Guard they judge that grades position as being of little relevance to driving.

To those asking for objective advice - Beware of those trying to become drivers, (or those who are unable to become one), posting what they think would be fairer, or those attempting to "serve their time" into the driving grade, who think that everyone else should have to do the same.

I'm assuming you are referring to those who are not drivers. Joining the railway particularly in a safety critical role gives, I feel, a very good insight into how the railway works as well as a massive advantage in terms of getting first dibs at any driving jobs that become available. Some TOCs still do recruit in this way. In fact at NXEA (dependent on depot) you have to be a depot driver first before being considered for main line driving.

 

[Redahead]

"And those two people have never worked in the railway previously and gone straight for driver. So without having any experience of other safety critical roles such as Conductor/Guard they judge that grades position as being of little relevance to driving."

This is getting boring. I am a driver, offering advice. I have been through the training, I do the job, and know what qualities are required. Don't wrongly assume that I have never worked in the rail industry before, because I have, in a safety critical role. That is how I am able to base my advice on facts and actual experience, rather than hypothesis and conjecture. I know what advice I would value more as an applicant.

Regards,

R

 

[HST Power]

This is getting boring. I am a driver, offering advice.

Just of interest, who are you working for?