A Standard Class Railway for All

[Masbroughlad]

I travelled from Stafford to Liverpool return over the last couple of days.

Outward - a 350 with 2+2 in standard. 4 car and busy, off peak.

Return, a higher density 3+2 in standard. Managed to get a table in declassified first class. 4 car again. Saturday mid-morning and people were standing.

Both journeys were overly full.

Liverpool used to be part of an INTERCITY XC service, with first class and IC standards. When it got passed to LM there was first class and a trolley - both gone now.

I think big cities warrant an intercity service - Liverpool to Birmingham included. At the moment, you can get nothing more than a commuter train standard.

Will GBR build up INTERCITY services again, or will we just get the same as we have now? Publicly owned, but no changes?

First class and catering are going. Cross Country 170 refurbs have removed first too. Are we heading for a one class fits all railway, dumbed down to the lowest common denominator for all? I do hope not.

Will INTERCITY quality services return to all of the major cities in the UK?

 

[HSTEd]

First class and catering are going. Cross Country 170 refurbs have removed first too. Are we heading for a one class fits all railway, dumbed down to the lowest common denominator for all? I do hope not.

I'd argue yes.
As train performance has increased, journey times have shrunk.

When London to Scotland took ten hours there was a lot more of a market for things like restaurant cars. Now London Scotland takes four hours and even the stub of HS2 is likely to take another chunk of that off.

London to Birmingham is now 85 minutes, soon to be 45 minutes. Not really a great way to sell first class as anything beyond the southern region commuter first class on such a short hop.

Right now there are only six TOCs where the mean passenger journey is over 100km:

1. Caledonian Sleeper - 666km [note: the sleeper is the devil!]
2. Lumo - 465km
3. Grand Central - 268km
4. LNER - 233km
5. Hull Trains - 225km
6. Avanti West Coast - 193km.

Essentially all the passenger kilometres run by those six operators are run by AWC and LNER, which also happen to be very much on the shorter end of the group.
They are also fast operators with relatively short journey times despite the long distances.

If the trend of shorter journey times continue I can't see the "INTERCITY" style market doing anything but shrinking.
Given the small size of the UK and concomitant short journeys, "INTERCITY" is just not a particularly attractive way of selling tickets.

 

[Polarbear]

My view is that first class will disappear on all but the longest/most remunerative routes in due course.

The UK isn’t alone with such a trend either. In France, there’s little to no 1st on TER services any more & similarly, Austria doesn’t provide first class on any of its local services.

 

[The exile]

I'd argue yes.
As train performance has increased, journey times have shrunk.

When London to Scotland took ten hours there was a lot more of a market for things like restaurant cars. Now London Scotland takes four hours and even the stub of HS2 is likely to take another chunk of that off.

London to Birmingham is now 85 minutes, soon to be 45 minutes. Not really a great way to sell first class as anything beyond the southern region commuter first class on such a short hop.

Right now there are only six TOCs where the mean passenger journey is over 100km:

1. Caledonian Sleeper - 666km [note: the sleeper is the devil!]
2. Lumo - 465km
3. Grand Central - 268km
4. LNER - 233km
5. Hull Trains - 225km
6. Avanti West Coast - 193km.

Essentially all the passenger kilometres run by those six operators are run by AWC and LNER, which also happen to be very much on the shorter end of the group.
They are also fast operators with relatively short journey times despite the long distances.

This is a bit of an artificial statistic as it is entirely dependent on the allocation of services to operators. GWR (for example) also has plenty of long-distance operations - unlike AWC and LNER the average is brought down by LTV and regional services.

 

[HST43257]

This is a bit of an artificial statistic as it is entirely dependent on the allocation of services to operators. GWR (for example) also has plenty of long-distance operations - unlike AWC and LNER the average is brought down by LTV and regional services.

Yeah this - will be more interesting if GWR/EMR/SR/TfW InterCity are separated from their local operations

 

[Bald Rick]

Liverpool used to be part of an INTERCITY XC service, with first class and IC standards. When it got passed to LM there was first class and a trolley - both gone now.

Liverpool hasn’t had an “Intercity” service to Birmingham for many years.

It does, however, have Intercity style services with First Class and an at seat service to:

Preston, the North West snd Scotland
Manchester, Yorkshire and the North East
Crewe, Milton Keynes and London

Liverpool used to have an Intecity service to Stafford until 16 months ago, now it serves Milton Keynes instead which incidentally drives rather more first class passengers (and passengers overall), which is on balance a net benefit to passengers, the railway and the country.

The railway can’t serve the exact needs of everybody all the time.

 

[jfollows]

Birmingham-Liverpool is a far better service today than it used to be. Yes, there’s no buffet car, or first class accomodation, but there’s two trains an hour. Versus one train every two hours in BR days. Yes, I’ve got fond memories of these, the one train every two hours to Manchester anyway, but now it’s a turn up and go service. I use the Birmingham-Liverpool services reasonably frequently, and they’re miles better than the “inter city” Voyager alternative via Stoke for me, let’s remember what was for sure but I don’t want to go back to it.
Plus the food opportunities at or around stations are so much better than they used to be, I don’t use buffet cars even when they’re available. Or I make and take my own.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2025 ==

And, yes, I know there are people who hate having to change; given the design of New Street station and the cavalier attitude to connections these days I partly don’t blame them, so for some people not having through trains Cheltenham-Runcorn is a big deal, but the railway doesn’t really care about individuals, it cares about the best option for the majority of people instead, which is where we are and why.

 

[Topological]

Before this gets into a Manchester v Liverpool discussion, as someone who occasionally uses Bristol Parkway to Piccadilly (if the Marches is not available) I can see no major problem with having a similar 350 operated service on Birmingham to Manchester. Yes, a 4-car would struggle, but an 8-car 350 would be a big change over the voyagers.

To my knowledge the big challenge to switching Manchester to a 350-style service is that there would be too many terminations at Birmingham New Street.

 

[jfollows]

To my knowledge the big challenge to switching Manchester to a 350-style service is that there would be too many terminations at Birmingham New Street.

Yes, it would need more platform 4Cs, which I don’t think is simple.

 

[Topological]

Yes, it would need more platform 4Cs, which I don’t think is simple.

I think that they can use through platforms, but it requires the timetabling to work.

IF the Liverpool's were also 8-car then probably the quick turnaround of suburban-style units would limit needs for occupancy.

It is the Voyager times that do not work when the Manchester portion gets split. You end up with a terminator from Bristol and a terminator from Reading/Bournemouth to deal with.

That is off-topic really, but this is more about offsetting the why Liverpool gets a different service to Manchester question. Operation Princess rationale for focusing on Manchester should be clear. It should also be remembered that on arrival at Manchester a train from Reading/Bournemouth goes to Bristol and vice-versa.

 

[stevieinselby]

The big problem is capacity.
A 4-car class 350 that has half a carriage given over to first class has 16 fewer seats than the same train in entirely standard, a reduction of about 7%. If trains are full and there isn't the money (or the surplus stock) to run more or longer trains then the easiest way to increase capacity is to strip out the first class section.

A journey time of 1h30 to 1h40 for a journey between two major cities like Birmingham and Liverpool, with 8 to 10 intermediate stops, with basic provincial 4-car trains, is really poor.
I was surprised to see that even under the full HS2 plans, it doesn't look like there were going to be any services between Birmingham and Liverpool.
I'm not sure when @jfollows is referring to "in BR days", but in 1995 there was an hourly service, mostly Regional Railways but with a handful of Intercity journeys.

 

[Topological]

The big problem is capacity.
A 4-car class 350 that has half a carriage given over to first class has 16 fewer seats than the same train in entirely standard, a reduction of about 7%. If trains are full and there isn't the money (or the surplus stock) to run more or longer trains then the easiest way to increase capacity is to strip out the first class section.

A journey time of 1h30 to 1h40 for a journey between two major cities like Birmingham and Liverpool, with 8 to 10 intermediate stops, with basic provincial 4-car trains, is really poor.
I was surprised to see that even under the full HS2 plans, it doesn't look like there were going to be any services between Birmingham and Liverpool.
I'm not sure when @jfollows is referring to "in BR days", but in 1995 there was an hourly service, mostly Regional Railways but with a handful of Intercity journeys.

IF the plan is to remove the Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street 350s when HS2 opens then that would be a scandal. What would the local stations that the service calls at do?

More likely you mean that there is no plan for a Birmingham Curzon Street to Liverpool Lime Street HS2 service. That much should be obvious from the fact that there is no equivalent flow now.

I remember when there were Liverpool Lime Street to Stansted trains under Central Trains. Great as someone living in Leicester at the time, but I do not think anyone would say that the current 350s are not an improvement over that hourly 170.

 

[jfollows]

I'm not sure when @jfollows is referring to "in BR days", but in 1995 there was an hourly service, mostly Regional Railways but with a handful of Intercity journeys.

Oh, the 1970s, so a long time ago, the New Street departures were xx.55 alternating between Liverpool and Manchester, and the Manchester departures were 08:30, 10:23, 12:23, 14:23, 16:23 & 18:28 - Liverpool similar on the odd hours.

 

[stevieinselby]

IF the plan is to remove the Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street 350s when HS2 opens then that would be a scandal. What would the local stations that the service calls at do?

More likely you mean that there is no plan for a Birmingham Curzon Street to Liverpool Lime Street HS2 service. That much should be obvious from the fact that there is no equivalent flow now.

I remember when there were Liverpool Lime Street to Stansted trains under Central Trains. Great as someone living in Leicester at the time, but I do not think anyone would say that the current 350s are not an improvement over that hourly 170.

I'm not saying that the existing Birmingham to Liverpool service should have been replaced by HS2, any more than the existing Avanti services from London to Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool were going to be replaced, far less the West Midlands services – there would obviously still be a market for local services as well, I was just surprised that they weren't planning on taking the opportunity of adding a new service there.

Sure, a half-hourly local service on a 350 is better than an hourly service on a 170, no argument there, but that doesn't mean that either of them are adequate for such a key flow.

 

[Topological]

I'm not saying that the existing Birmingham to Liverpool service should have been replaced by HS2, any more than the existing Avanti services from London to Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool were going to be replaced, far less the West Midlands services – there would obviously still be a market for local services as well, I was just surprised that they weren't planning on taking the opportunity of adding a new service there.

Sure, a half-hourly local service on a 350 is better than an hourly service on a 170, no argument there, but that doesn't mean that either of them are adequate for such a key flow.

So you think that there should be an additional HS2 service from Birmingham Curzon Street to Liverpool?

London to Manchester IS being partly replaced by HS2 (as are London to Birmingham and London to Liverpool), so the statement "any more than the existing Avanti services..." suggests you do see a HS2 option as a partial replacement for the current service.

 

[stevieinselby]

So you think that there should be an additional HS2 service from Birmingham Curzon Street to Liverpool?

London to Manchester IS being partly replaced by HS2 (as are London to Birmingham and London to Liverpool), so the statement "any more than the existing Avanti services..." suggests you do see a HS2 option as a partial replacement for the current service.

The plan was always that there would still be trains running on the classic lines from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and Edinburgh even with full HS2.
Why this bizarrely aggressive take that because I'm suggesting that an HS2 service from Birmingham to Liverpool would have been a good idea somehow means I'm implying the West Midlands service over that route should be replaced?

 

[JonathanH]

Why this bizarrely aggressive take that because I'm suggesting that an HS2 service from Birmingham to Liverpool would have been a good idea somehow means I'm implying the West Midlands service over that route should be replaced?

The problem is that there are only so many paths available through Stafford and Crewe into Liverpool so implicitly any train running from HS2 onto existing routes has to displace one running on the 'classic' network.

Going back to the original issue of a standard class railway for all, first class is an irrelevance for many except on the longest journeys, as realistically is catering. It has its place on those longer journeys but once it becomes a tiny cabin, it is a bit of a goldfish bowl and not really worth maintaining.

 

[Topological]

The plan was always that there would still be trains running on the classic lines from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds and Edinburgh even with full HS2.
Why this bizarrely aggressive take that because I'm suggesting that an HS2 service from Birmingham to Liverpool would have been a good idea somehow means I'm implying the West Midlands service over that route should be replaced?

My apologies if there was anything aggressive in the posts.

I am just of the opinion that the provision between Liverpool and Birmingham is currently very good, and better than anything I have known in my lifetime.

I also believe that it is not necessary that pairs of cities be connected by INTERCITY or anything similar. South Wales to Cardiff to Manchester (my regular journey) works excellently on 197s provided they have 4 cars. There are those who advocate strongly for the Mk4 (which have worked under the INTERCITY brand), but whilst they are nicer than 197s, the problems with Mk4 are well documented and the result is that the whole service suffers.

In this case, the nature of the stops on the route is such that it is more like Thameslink from Peterborough to Brighton, than any of the Avanti services. A similar provision of stock therefore seems fully reasonable (divide population served by number of carriages and the two will be equivalent)

 

[infobleep]

I'd argue yes.
As train performance has increased, journey times have shrunk.

When London to Scotland took ten hours there was a lot more of a market for things like restaurant cars. Now London Scotland takes four hours and even the stub of HS2 is likely to take another chunk of that off.

London to Birmingham is now 85 minutes, soon to be 45 minutes. Not really a great way to sell first class as anything beyond the southern region commuter first class on such a short hop.

If it's going to be 45 minutes then they could run the route with metro style stock and space for standing, with definitely no catering required.

 

[The Planner]

The big problem is capacity.
A 4-car class 350 that has half a carriage given over to first class has 16 fewer seats than the same train in entirely standard, a reduction of about 7%. If trains are full and there isn't the money (or the surplus stock) to run more or longer trains then the easiest way to increase capacity is to strip out the first class section.

A journey time of 1h30 to 1h40 for a journey between two major cities like Birmingham and Liverpool, with 8 to 10 intermediate stops, with basic provincial 4-car trains, is really poor.
I was surprised to see that even under the full HS2 plans, it doesn't look like there were going to be any services between Birmingham and Liverpool.
I'm not sure when @jfollows is referring to "in BR days", but in 1995 there was an hourly service, mostly Regional Railways but with a handful of Intercity journeys.

How quick should it be? Even if you took out Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge, you arent saving more than 10 minutes.

 

[Topological]

If it's going to be 45 minutes then they could run the route with metro style stock and space for standing, with definitely no catering required.

To be fair, there has to be slightly better seats on HS2 just to get a premium.

Though given the amount of time in tunnels, perhaps HS2 could be run with faster versions of the new tube trains?

Has anything been decided about HS2 catering. Given the tendency to shut for stock taking about an hour before arrivals any buffet would never open.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair, there has to be slightly better seats on HS2 just to get a premium.

Though given the amount of time in tunnels, perhaps HS2 could be run with faster versions of the new tube trains?

Has anything been decided about HS2 catering. Given the tendency to shut for stock taking about an hour before arrivals any buffet would never open.

HS2 will almost certainly be horrible and plastic, I think the passenger experience will be poor beyond journey times and journey opportunities. I can guarantee it will be miserable and utilitarian.

 

[stevieinselby]

How quick should it be? Even if you took out Penkridge, Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge, you arent saving more than 10 minutes.

That's why I would have expected it to be included within HS2. For a journey between two major cities of 80 miles (straight line) or 90 miles (by rail) to take more than 1½ hours shows the limitations of tinkering with services on the classic lines. Ideally it should be about an hour, but probably 1h15 is more realistic on a mixed-traffic line – and that would be in line with the journey times predicted for the Transpennine Route Upgrade – but I know that is going to be unachievable on the existing route without a major negative impact on other services.

I also believe that it is not necessary that pairs of cities be connected by INTERCITY or anything similar.

I'm not saying that every service between two cities, or two Intercity destinations, needs to be of Intercity standard ... but Birmingham and Liverpool are the 2nd and 4th largest metropolitan areas in England, this isn't just any old pair of cities, it's a major traffic route!

South Wales to Cardiff to Manchester (my regular journey) works excellently on 197s provided they have 4 cars. There are those who advocate strongly for the Mk4 (which have worked under the INTERCITY brand), but whilst they are nicer than 197s, the problems with Mk4 are well documented and the result is that the whole service suffers.

That feels like it's more of a contingent problem with one particular type of rolling stock – there's nothing intrinsically wrong with running an Intercity style service on that route, and if it wasn't for the Mk4 carriages being less reliable than the 197s then that's what it would have and I can't imagine there would be a lot of complaints about it!

That said, I support TfW's aspirations to upgrade the route, although the demand for end-to-end travel is likely to be significantly less because Cardiff is a much smaller place than either of Birmingham or Liverpool, so I'm not quite as bothered by that route running with standard provincial trains.

 

[vuzzeho]

HS2 will almost certainly be horrible and plastic, I think the passenger experience will be poor beyond journey times and journey opportunities. I can guarantee it will be miserable and utilitarian.

I love the optimism on this site!

 

[AlterEgo]

I love the optimism on this site!

It’s British, it is realism!

 

[HSTEd]

To be fair, there has to be slightly better seats on HS2 just to get a premium.

Given the lower cost of providing travel on HS2 than the classic railway, the railway would gain a premium even if the HS2 ticket price was marginally lower than the classic one.
Classical market segmentation doesn't make very much sense in this context, given that the "lower quality" product is actually more expensive.

Has anything been decided about HS2 catering. Given the tendency to shut for stock taking about an hour before arrivals any buffet would never open.

There will be catering spaces on all HS2 trains because of the decision to have a uniform fleet of rolling stock with uniform interiors.

So Birmingham trains will be provided with buffet facilities spec'd for a trip to Scotland. I expect that staffing costs and the short journey will mean the buffets are simply never used and will waste lots of space on the Birmingham trains.

 

[brad465]

Before this gets into a Manchester v Liverpool discussion, as someone who occasionally uses Bristol Parkway to Piccadilly (if the Marches is not available) I can see no major problem with having a similar 350 operated service on Birmingham to Manchester. Yes, a 4-car would struggle, but an 8-car 350 would be a big change over the voyagers.

To my knowledge the big challenge to switching Manchester to a 350-style service is that there would be too many terminations at Birmingham New Street.

Perhaps the answer is to electrify the remainder of the Bristol-Birmingham route, so that XC can have EMUs do the whole length at greater capacity without more Birmingham terminators. The infills would be Filton Bank, Westerleigh Jct - Bromsgrove and the remaining running lines through the Kings Norton-Northfield area. This would have the added bonus of more GWR services being able to run electric.

 

[Topological]

Given the lower cost of providing travel on HS2 than the classic railway, the railway would gain a premium even if the HS2 ticket price was marginally lower than the classic one.
Classical market segmentation doesn't make very much sense in this context, given that the "lower quality" product is actually more expensive.




There will be catering spaces on all HS2 trains because of the decision to have a uniform fleet of rolling stock with uniform interiors.

So Birmingham trains will be provided with buffet facilities spec'd for a trip to Scotland. I expect that staffing costs and the short journey will mean the buffets are simply never used and will waste lots of space on the Birmingham trains.

Thank you.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I am expecting HS2 trains to be very similar to IETs but with slightly better seats (like the Pendolino refurb, or 197s) rather than the original seat design. That would be described as utilitarian and modern by many, but would be fit for purpose.

I also expect there will be a first class variant on HS2. Although the journey is short, the premium marketing will still need to apply as it does on WCML and ECML trains. Also as applied on GWR.

The catering is as expected. Although we manage perfectly fine without buffets on GWR. The HS2 trains will not have the daft kitchens every 5 carriages.

 

[Class15]

Yes, it would need more platform 4Cs, which I don’t think is simple.

Could it theoretically be possible to terminate trains from the Soho direction, and then, instead of reversing, form the northbound by going towards Aston, then over to Soho using the link line?

 

[Topological]

Perhaps the answer is to electrify the remainder of the Bristol-Birmingham route, so that XC can have EMUs do the whole length at greater capacity without more Birmingham terminators. The infills would be Filton Bank, Westerleigh Jct - Bromsgrove and the remaining running lines through the Kings Norton-Northfield area. This would have the added bonus of more GWR services being able to run electric.

That would be the answer. However, it is expensive.

In the current situation having more capacity and giving people in Penkridge, Acton Bridge, Winsford etc a connection makes sense. I do not know how much pent up demand for services between the West Midlands and Liverpool there is. However, the lack of density in either city suggests a train that makes more stops is the better way to serve the populations than a limited stop fast train from the centres only.

Same logic on density applies to Manchester to Birmingham (though Manchester is increasing its central density faster than Birmingham or Liverpool)