A sorry state of affairs

[Belly Buster]

Every now and again I swing past this forum; usually when I'm in a jovial mood and feel like I need to lower my happiness rating back more towards the average.

In days gone by, I recall train travel as pleasant pastime, slowly travelling through the country, watching the scenery go by, someone else worrying about the driving. For a portion of my youth I enjoyed travel throughout the system, visiting Kyle of Lochalsh, Oban, Wales, Penzance, Dover, Ipswich, Scarborough and many points in between.

For a portion of my adult life I worked for British Rail (as it was called at the time), and again these bring back good memories. While my role was office-based, I did travel widely and recall an enjoyable experience.

Sadly, train travel it would appear, has had the sheen removed. It seems that if you have the misfortune to need or want to travel on the railway, it is only a matter of time before some seemingly minor indiscretion will be your route to a fine, or maybe court and a criminal record.

I perceive the root cause of the "problem" (such that it exists) as an inability to differentiate between those who are trying to cheat the railway, and those who are just naive, forgetful or slightly careless.

So what can I conclude? Well I don't particularly want a criminal record. I have done a good job of avoiding this so far in my life. The natural conclusion I could draw is that anyone who has an alternative to train travel would be best advised to use that option, and not run the risk of the types of problems that many have fallen foul of in this forum.

Is it as easy as that? It could be that those driving instead of taking the train, have a higher likelihood of serious accident, and driving can bring its own offences in unfortunate circumstances as well.

So philosophically, if you have ended up on this forum seeking assistance for a ticketing transgression, maybe you have to accept it is just not your day. And if you had an equally bad day on the road, you might be in the hospital - or worse.

Food for thought.

 

[CNash]

Do bear in mind that the vast majority of rail passengers make their journeys without incident. Reading this particular forum will obviously colour your perception of the actual number of "ticketing transgressions" that occur - after all, people don't use this forum to post threads stating "I used a valid ticket to travel with X TOC today and had a normal journey with no problems!" I myself have incurred a penalty fare only once in my eight years as a London-based daily commuter, and in that case it was deserved - unfortunate, yes, but deserved.

 

[ian959]

So what can I conclude? Well I don't particularly want a criminal record. I have done a good job of avoiding this so far in my life. The natural conclusion I could draw is that anyone who has an alternative to train travel would be best advised to use that option, and not run the risk of the types of problems that many have fallen foul of in this forum.

What a load of twaddle. The vast majority of people are able to enjoy their train ride as they follow the simple enough general 'rules'. Buy a ticket before you board a train, sit in the right part of the train, carry your travelcard at all times and so on. Those that have problems are generally those that are unable or unwilling to follow the simple rules. Admittedly some people do have problems even then but given the sheer complexity of the fares system and the routing guide and its anomalies, esoteric valid ticket choices may still be questioned by poorly trained staff but they would be in the vast minority of all train journeys.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I'm with Belly Buster on this to a degree.

Let's be clear - I do agree; these occurrences are clearly a tiny minority; but nevertheless they occur too often.

I have been in a situation where I was on a train with a (not especially esoteric) entirely valid ticket, where I was accosted by the guard. In my case he did, in fact back down and I wasn't subjected to anything more than an argument. But that, I suspect, was in part because I was wholly sure of myself. Another passenger with the same (I say again, not especially esoteric) ticket may well have been subjected to different treatment.

There are three elements to the observation here:
- people who (esoteric or not) do have wholly valid tickets and yet are subjected to varying levels of treatment from query through to escalation
- people who are in fact wrong, but are wrong through genuine oversight or mistake - with no intent whatsover to defraud - who are nevertheless subjected to fines, penalties or other proceedings (example: left my railcard at home or, worse, it's hidden somewhere in the bottom of my handbag, etc)
- instances where the rules themselves are arguably unreasonable. And by "unreasonable", I mean things that ordinary people who aren't part of the railway industry or thinking might be expected to believe are OK but which in fact are not. Like having a penalty fare zone applied at a station with nothing more than a car-park style coin machine (I have no coins - do I stay home?); like charging someone a couple of hundred pounds for alighting their booked train at the station before the one stated on their advance ticket (Who suffers? Who is out of pocket? Well, nobody of course. So, why the penalty?*) And so on.

That said, I have equally encountered many members of staff - by far the majority - who are more than co-operative and even willing to bend "the rules" in customers' favour. Like being permitted to travel on a train that did not stop with two day-passes that together required a stop in order to be technically valid. And so on and so on. Such experiences represent the VAST majority.

It's a sadness that there is a tiny minority where the attitude taints the overall experience. Negative experiences carry far more impact than positive ones; one might travel 1000 times with neutral or positive experiences; yet will remember the one case where something "bad" happened.

====================
* I'm not seeking answers to these questions. I put them here merely to illustrate what an ordinary reasonable and honest non-railway person might be expected to think.

 

[rdwarr]

Of the many thousand rail journeys undertaken each day we perhaps see one ending up in this section. People getting in trouble for transgressing the rules is nothing new (the Regulation of Railways Act dates back to 1889), it's just that there's now this thing called the Internet where you can see more of what's going on in the world.

 

[Aldaniti]

I agree with the thrust of the OP's comments about the railway today. I read many of the tales of woe regarding tickets and have come to the conclusion that whilst there are indeed some poor sods who become victim to TOC ticket rule nonsense, there are far more who are either fare dodgers or are as thick as two sort planks and shouldn't be allowed within 50ft of a railway station. What always surprises me is how Little Johnny comes to this forum (sometimes having been recommended by other fare dodgers) moaning about how possible further action will ruin his life/career when the amount dodged is often no more than a few quid. I really don't understand their logic.

 

[AndyLandy]

This is purely reporting bias. This forum specifically states people can come here for advice in those sorts of situations, so of course you'll see a massively higher ratio of people having issues here.

Personally, my advice is to skip over those threads. I'm not expert enough to help, so I just steer clear of the whole thing.

 

[maniacmartin]

Well there are 3 types of people who run into problems, as I see it, in ascending order of my sympathy towards them:

• Deliberate fare evaders
• People who don't know the rules and make mistakes
• Passengers who want to get the best value tickets, and know the NRCoC and Routeing Guide exist

Most passengers have no issue at all, but there are still way too many issues regarding passengers who use something considered esoteric such as breaking your journey on a season ticket (which according to most staff near me is not allowed).

Unless I'm using an AP, I find that I am more likely than not going to have a ticketing dispute of some type at some point in my journey.

 

[swj99]

I think many of the problems which happen on the railways these days arise because of ridiculous and unacceptable behaviour. Some of this is on the part of passengers, and some is on the part of TOCs and railway employees.

I went on a train once and it was raining. Inside the carriage. Do I win £5 ?

 

[tbtc]

In days gone by, I recall train travel as pleasant pastime, slowly travelling through the country, watching the scenery go by, someone else worrying about the driving. For a portion of my youth I enjoyed travel throughout the system, visiting Kyle of Lochalsh, Oban, Wales, Penzance, Dover, Ipswich, Scarborough and many points in between.

For a portion of my adult life I worked for British Rail (as it was called at the time), and again these bring back good memories. While my role was office-based, I did travel widely and recall an enjoyable experience.

Sadly, train travel it would appear, has had the sheen removed. It seems that if you have the misfortune to need or want to travel on the railway, it is only a matter of time before some seemingly minor indiscretion will be your route to a fine, or maybe court and a criminal record

If such a forum had existed back in the good old days (jumpers for goalposts etc) then there'd have been people complaining about getting caught for fare evasion/ avoidance etc back then too.

Whilst the rules have become more complicated (which means loopholes/ arguments/ deviations), this only affects a tiny number of the huge passenger volumes, and I'd imagine that 99% of passengers have no problem week in/ week out.

I'm always wary of tales of the "good old days".

 

[jon0844]

If the byelaws go back to 1889, then I have to assume that there have been problems and complaints for at least that long. But the only twittering back then would have been people moaning in their local pub.

 

[Belly Buster]

I agree with the comments that in fact these situations are rare. I also have benefitted from leniency by staff on the odd occasion.

I feel the situation that seems to be happening on Northern Rail specifically - very aggressive enforecement - seems to be a bad trend, and I think this puts the industry in a bad light.

 

[Hadders]

It's very easy to look at the past through 'rose tinted specs'. Somehow the summers were always hotter, mars bars were larger etc etc.

Reality is there were problems and issues in the past
There are problems and issues now
There will be problems and issues in the future

Of course the internet and social media mean problems and issues are more widely known about these days than in the past.

 

[edwin_m]

Just to show it isn't all bad...

This evening I was travelling from Manchester to Nottingham, part of a week which takes me to four widely separated places all on Advance tickets, with all that train travel unfortunately interrupted by some quite stressful meetings.

I found what I thought was my reserved seat and the ticket details didn't match, and on checking my booking again realised I was an hour too early! I couldn't get back to the doors before they closed. So I sat in a tip-up intending to alight at Stockport, wondering whether the penalty fare would be cheaper than buying a new ticket to Nottingham if asked, and recalling some of the horror stories I'd read on here where an Advance is not used precisely according to the rules.

The guard (self described see below), ---- according to her name badge (deleted in case it gets her into trouble!), passed by and asked whether I was OK - I don't think she was checking tickets just opening the windows due to failed aircon. I explained I was on the wrong train and she replied to the effect of "just stay on - I'm the guard on this train and if I say it will be OK then it is" then explained that there was more seating and better aircon in the next coach but I would have to move before the train splits at Chesterfield.

After Sheffield I was a bit worried to hear a different voice on the PA, and someone else came down checking tickets just before I alighted at Alfreton. I explained what his predecessor had said and he replied that that was the "incomprable ----" at work.

So a thumbs up to ---- and her colleague on EMT, and also to the cheerful bus people at Alfreton!

 

[RJ]

I agree with the comments that in fact these situations are rare. I also have benefitted from leniency by staff on the odd occasion.

I feel the situation that seems to be happening on Northern Rail specifically - very aggressive enforecement - seems to be a bad trend, and I think this puts the industry in a bad light.

Aggressive how? Southeastern support their staff delaying trains, putting in pointless calls to the British Transport Police and physically dragging passengers off trains/detaining them against their will where there is a ticketing dispute in which the passenger is in the right. I think enforcement in terms of reporting and FPN/PFNs is relatively tame in comparison to the knucklehead/cowboy attitude seen elsewhere!

 

[LateThanNever]

If the byelaws go back to 1889, then I have to assume that there have been problems and complaints for at least that long. But the only twittering back then would have been people moaning in their local pub.

Trouble is the laws go back to then as well, when apart from originally fearing death from travelling over at over 10mph, you might be nicked under strict liabilty. But now as fares are so difficult and obscure it might be for doing something that was the railway company's fault!

 

[tbtc]

I feel the situation that seems to be happening on Northern Rail specifically - very aggressive enforecement - seems to be a bad trend, and I think this puts the industry in a bad light.

I think that this is coming as a "culture shock" to a number of passengers on Northern, who are so used to the Guards not checking tickets (due to well documented reasons, like the fact that there's no DOO so the Guard has to go to a certain door at each station) that this newfangled insistance on passengers actually paying for a ticket has upset a few people.

When the fares are so cheap (due to PTE subsidy) there probably needs to be an element of "stick" to encourage people to actually buy a ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Nail. Bang. Head.

 

[Yew]

I dont think it helps that, due to the age of the RORA, there is a lot of old case law. Some of this case law is still regularly used, but things have changed significantly since the time of its inception.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Most passengers have no issue at all, but there are still way too many issues regarding passengers who use something considered esoteric such as breaking your journey on a season ticket (which according to most staff near me is not allowed).

You what? I and a huge number of other travellers from my station do that daily, on the basis the price is the same for many stations so tickets are bought to the furthest one at the same price. This means I can go further down the line on one or 2 journeys a year at no actual cost. Its neer been questioned as far as I know.

On the subject matter I think what bugs me about the whole scenario is that there is a penalty fare option. It would be far better if everyone who was caught without a valid ticket was given a penalty fare once they had proved their identity, and they all should be logged on a central system. TOCs would then be able to identify those who had made a genuinue mistake as their name would not apear on the list much if at all, against delibrate fare dodgers who would be on it lots.

Enforcement action could then be taken against persisent offenders.

 

[island]

Since you're not required to carry ID in the UK, that probably is a pipe dream.

 

[jon0844]

TOCs do keep notes themselves, but I am not sure if that data is shared. Probably not due to data protection, which is possibly a shame as it would expose those people who have had numerous PFs (possible people who work on the basis of getting caught every now and then).

I am sure that FCC and Wagn before it have a sort of three-strikes system, whereby a PF is no longer offered. This is established during the phone call to check details, showing previous 'offences'.

But that's only what I've been told by people might not know the full story. As we don't have to carry ID, there's always the issue of people giving false information.

 

[Flamingo]

From my personal experience, I would have a ratio of thousands of ticket irregularities of all sorts to every one that ended up in court. In fact it would not even average one a year.

The vast majority of irregularities pass unremarked, or get sorted on-board. Anybody playing the odds against getting caught is going to get away with it most times, and the vast majority of "innocent" mistakes likewise.

 

[1e10]

I can kind of see where the OP is coming from. I'm always orrying about my tickets when travelling by train. If I were to misplace it someday, or my Railcard, I'd hate to think what the outcome might be.

 

[Flamingo]

I can kind of see where the OP is coming from. I'm always orrying about my tickets when travelling by train. If I were to misplace it someday, or my Railcard, I'd hate to think what the outcome might be.

Realistically, nothing. Slim chance of having to buy a new ticket. Chances of revenue meeting you, about the same as winning on a lottery ticket.

 

[extendedpaul]

I have travelled all over the UK by train over the last few years, mainly using advance, rover and Club 55 tickets. Along with bus and coach travel it is my main leisure activity.

On occasions I have wanted to do something which has been against "the rules" , eg

Alight a stop or two early on an advance ticket. Stations were not barrier controlled !

Catch an earlier train where there are significant delays: my booked train was 50 minutes late and the previous one arrived when mine was due to depart.

Use a day rover ticket a couple of minutes too early.

In these and similar cases I have found that by finding and asking the conductor/guard before boarding or alighting I have ALWAYS been given permission to do what I wanted. I think if you ask politely before doing something technically "wrong" most rail employees are decent people and will usually allow it. It's really not as draconian as reading these forums can make you think.

 

[AndyLandy]

In these and similar cases I have found that by finding and asking the conductor/guard before boarding or alighting I have ALWAYS been given permission to do what I wanted. I think if you ask politely before doing something technically "wrong" most rail employees are decent people and will usually allow it. It's really not as draconian as reading these forums can make you think.

Quoted for Truth™

I've been authorised to do all kinds of things that aren't permitted on my ticket. I've taken earlier or later trains than my advance bookings have stipulated, I've changed at different places, or modified the route slightly, I've travelled overdistance and got off at Chester instead of Crewe. Every time it's been achieved by asking the guard of any given train service words to the effect of "Given this situation, x, would it be acceptable for me to do y on your train?"

9 times in 10, the answer is "yes, that's fine." Occasionally I've been told no, and in those cases you take it in your stride and stick with plan A.

Most train staff are reasonable human beings and will help you out if you've a genuine case. The one time I was denied travelling on an earlier service, the guard said "It's just that this train is already very busy, and it's only 30 minutes until your booked service, otherwise I'd be happy for you to travel." Which is totally fair enough.

Even in my early days of being a little more carefree, I've never been penalised for riding the wrong train on an AP fare. Over the years, a couple of guards have told me "You shouldn't be on this train, it's fine this time, but in future you should always ride on the booked train only."

 

[nw1]

I have travelled all over the UK by train over the last few years, mainly using advance, rover and Club 55 tickets. Along with bus and coach travel it is my main leisure activity.

On occasions I have wanted to do something which has been against "the rules" , eg

Alight a stop or two early on an advance ticket. Stations were not barrier controlled !

Catch an earlier train where there are significant delays: my booked train was 50 minutes late and the previous one arrived when mine was due to depart.

Use a day rover ticket a couple of minutes too early.

In these and similar cases I have found that by finding and asking the conductor/guard before boarding or alighting I have ALWAYS been given permission to do what I wanted. I think if you ask politely before doing something technically "wrong" most rail employees are decent people and will usually allow it. It's really not as draconian as reading these forums can make you think.

I don't think those sorts of things are what the OP was talking about though. In those cases the "rules" are, to varying degrees, fair enough (except perhaps for the 50 mins late one where the TOC is perhaps at fault and if so should incur the penalty). It's the stories of people being prosecuted for honest mistakes (e.g. being late and buying your ticket on the train) that are maybe a little worrying (everyone - bar none - makes honest mistakes from time to time, I would simply not believe this is not the case - and it would be rather similar to being prosecuted for paying your electricity bill one day late) but thankfully the actual occurrence of draconian action is, I suspect, very low. I've never observed this sort of thing in 15 years of travelling on the contemporary railway.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't think those sorts of things are what the OP was talking about though. In those cases the "rules" are, to varying degrees, fair enough (except perhaps for the 50 mins late one where the TOC is perhaps at fault and if so should incur the penalty). It's the stories of people being prosecuted for honest mistakes (e.g. being late and buying your ticket on the train) that are maybe a little worrying (everyone - bar none - makes honest mistakes from time to time, I would simply not believe this is not the case - and it would be rather similar to being prosecuted for paying your electricity bill one day late) but thankfully the actual occurrence of draconian action is, I suspect, very low. I've never observed this sort of thing in 15 years of travelling on the contemporary railway.

Can you please tell me how to differentiate between the person travelling Paddington to Radley (for example) who made an honest mistake and boarded at an unbarriered platform and asks the guard to buy a ticket when the guard comes through, and the person who habitually never buys a ticket, figuring they will only get asked once a fortnight (with the help of visits to the lavatory when the guard walks through)?

I've been doing the job for seven or eight years now, and I can't tell them apart.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Regular commuters seem to be the worst at fare dodging (using subtle methods) - young individuals trying to get away occasionally (and sometime getting done) - are a different scenario.

Discuss ? (credit for examples please)

PS - have done many ticket checks in my career - including some "hostile" inner London areas.