A slightly odd prosecution case outcome

[johntea]

Trio ordered to pay more than £1,200 for dodging train tickets worth just £14.90

THREE people have been slapped with hefty fines after travelling on the railway between Ilkley and Leeds without paying for a fare.

www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk

Was just reading an article on the Telegraph And Argus regarding a handful of recent prosecutions by Northern, two are the standard 'didn't have a ticket, had no intention of buying a ticket' cases but the below stood out to me

Elle Pickett, 21, of Leeds Road, Ilkley, travelled between Ilkley and Leeds stations on July 2, 2021, without paying the fare of £5.70.

The court heard that on arrival at Leeds the the defendant requested to purchase a weekly ticket from Ilkley. Questioned as to why the ticket had not been bought prior to travelling the defendant stated that she was unaware her ticket had expired as she thought that today was the 01 July. She went onto advise that she had only realised that it had expired when she had boarded the train. Her details were obtained and she was advised the facts would be reported. Following the incident a letter was sent to the defendant requesting the fare only, as there was no response, a Fixed Penalty Notice was then sent. However this remains unpaid.

The case was found proved and she was fined £220, ordered to pay compensation of £5.70, a surcharge to fund victim services of £34 and costs of £150.

-Who knows if the 'being unaware ticket had expired before travelling' was a genuine mistake or lie, but it suggests a previous weekly ticket was held albeit of course invalid for the date of travel
-The passenger seems to have requested to purchase a new weekly ticket at Leeds but this was declined and details taken instead
-Northern seem to have accepted the explanation and just asked for payment of the £5.70 fare rather than any penalty
-(This is the bit that confuses me most!) Despite the fact the passenger seems to have been willing to pay for a weekly renewal from Leeds at the time they then totally ignore the request from Northern and let it turn into a £409.70 court case instead!

Could they not just have sold the weekly ticket AND the £5.70 ticket to the passenger at Leeds rather than chasing for the £5.70 afterwards?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think Northern act reasonably all the time but then neither do some of their customers; it's difficult to know the rights and wrongs of this case, but there is probably more to it than meets the eye.

A key takeaway from this is not to ignore any correspondence!

 

[Hadders]

I agree that there will be more to this than what has been reported in the paper. It might be that the person on the barrier was not correectly authorised to take details or issue Penalty Fares which might explain why an invoice was issued. The main thing is the person then ignored correspondence which ended up being a costly mistake...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think Northern RPIs always have the ability to sell a ticket.

 

[spag23]

I had a similar incident to Ms Pickett's, but - to their credit - the gate staff adopted a different stance. I had been commuting from St Albans to St Pancras for over 30 years. But one Wednesday my KeyCard didn't let me out through the STP barriers. With horror, I realised it had expired the day before. Unusually I hadn't extended the monthly renewal to the fifth week's Friday, expecting (at renewal) to take few midweek days off. Being a plastic card, there was of course no date on it. And the barriers at SAC had (again unusually) all been open; so I got no expiry alert before starting the journey. I politely explained the situation to the STP gate staff, asking them to let me through so I could buy a day return at the nearby ticket office. Rather to my surprise, I was allowed to do this, and I even returned to the gate moments later to show the staff the (albeit late) outbound ticket; I didn't want her to think I'd conned her! All praise was due for this common sense, especially towards a customer who'd contributed over £120,000 to the TOCs' coffers.

Sadly this contrasts with other STP gate staff. On another occasion I had renewed the Keycard on the morning of travel. But the SAC barrier wouldn't let me through, as Thameslink's IT took two hours to turn my payment into the virtual ticket downloadable at the gate. For the outward journey I blagged my through the barriers, arguing that I was in very much the same position as someone who had fully paid for a ticket, but had been told to wait two hours for the ticket itself to be printed. On the return, I'd expected the STP barrier to let me load the monthly ticket onto my Keycard. But no, the daft IT system would only allow loading at the origin station. And the guy (RPI this time?) at the STP barrier wouldn't let me through. I did somehow get on the train, and finally validated at SAC the ticket the TOC had irrevocably charged me for, ten hours earlier.

I consider it indefensible that an industry that struggles to achieve 85% scores for punctuality, reliability and satisfaction, delights in penalising passengers who ever accidentally drop below 99.99% in their ticket purchasing correctness.

 

[Haywain]

delights in penalising passengers who ever accidentally drop below 99.99% in their ticket purchasing correctness.

You say this in spite of the fact that your first paragraph proves that you have experience of this statement being false!

 

[skyhigh]

I had a similar incident to Ms Pickett's, but - to their credit - the gate staff adopted a different stance.

In the example they were offered the chance to simply pay the fare due but ended up being taken to court because they ignored all communication. I'd say that's a pretty fair stance, no?

 

[island]

£220 fines being half the assumed weekly wage strongly suggest the passengers in question simply didn't engage with the process. Might even have given false details.

 

[spag23]

In my account there was indeed one good apple. But I still wonder what would have happened to her if her actions had been witnessed by a manager or an RPI.
But you ignore the second, bad, apple (just as he'd ignored the printed receipt I showed him).
From Ms Pickett's case and many others on this forum, it's easy to gain the impression that TOCs take delight in prosecuting cases where the passenger has clearly made a genuine error; especially given the ticket complexities that only get resolved (sometimes) after long discussions with this forum's experts.

 

[skyhigh]

From Ms Pickett's case and many others on this forum, it's easy to gain the impression that TOCs take delight in prosecuting cases where the passenger has clearly made a genuine error

But they didn't take delight in prosecuting the offence? They gave a chance for a way out with only the fare due paid? Surely that shows they acted to avoid a prosecution?

 

[Hadders]

I know we generally don’t do comparisons with other forms of transport on this forum but I’ve been driving for over 30 years, probably driven the best part of a million miles in that time, never had a speeding ticket. What discretion would I (or should I) be shown if I was caught speeding.

Just saying.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I know we generally don’t do comparisons with other forms of transport on this forum but I’ve been driving for over 30 years, probably driven the best part of a million miles in that time, never had a speeding ticket. What discretion would I (or should I) be shown if I was caught speeding.

Just saying.

As you say, comparisons are hard to make. You automatically get some discretion with speeding, as both your car speedo and any speed cameras are set to give you the benefit. Typically a speedo will be around 4mph out for example, in your favour. Most police forces (but not all) also don't prosecute for speeding at less than 10% above the limit (although there's no obligation on them to not do so) Average speed cameras also allow a momentary speeding lapse, as long as compensated for by slower driving.
So, in general, yes you will get discretion shown, and indeed may have been shown it, but you'd never know!

 

[spag23]

I would of course appreciate the police showing some me discretion if I ever were to exceed the speed limit by up to 4mph (though I don't believe I ever have, in over 52 years of conviction-free motoring).
Ms Pickett was unlucky in that her gate staff would not let her correct her mistake on the spot, as mine did. Instead they chose to instigate a course of action that cost every party a lot of time and expense; though her apparent, unexplained, failure to deal with correspondence largely contributed to escalating the issue.
I maintain that possession of a season ticket (albeit unknowingly having expired by a few hours) should justify some discretion, especially with the contrite passenger trying to rectify their error at the earliest opportunity. I also recognise that other forum posters (rail staff?) may have a different attitude.
Confront the yobs that regularly tailgate passengers through the barriers at Kings Cross? Or instead achieve your targets by going for the low hanging fruit of regular passengers with a marginally expired season ticket?

 

[Hadders]

The point is where do you draw the line?

In the vast majority of cases discretion is shown, we generally only see cases on here where discretion hasn’t been shown and in many of those cases there will be more to the story than what’s been posted on here.

The best rule of thumb is not to expect any discretion but if you engage at the earliest opportunity in many cases it will be shown.

 

[spag23]

Wouldn't it be good/fair if the NRCOC Season Ticket conditions (para 10) could be extended to allow a partial refund of the extra/penalty fare not only for a forgotten or mislaid season ticket; but for one that was one day beyond its expiry. After all, in most cases it's only on that extra day that the passenger becomes aware of the situation. Especially with a plastic ticket, not visibly recording the expiry date, which may have been set up months (or even a year) previously.
A solution I eventually applied was to put a large sticker on my Keycard, with the expiry date in large letters. Even though I as I running the risk of an RPI accusing me of disfiguring it!

 

[Hadders]

Wouldn't it be good/fair if the NRCOC Season Ticket conditions (para 10) could be extended to allow a partial refund of the extra/penalty fare not only for a forgotten or mislaid season ticket; but for one that was one day beyond its expiry. After all, in most cases it's only on that extra day that the passenger becomes aware of the situation. Especially with a plastic ticket, not visibly recording the wexpiry date, which may have been set up months (or even a year) previously.
A solution I eventually applied was to put a large sticker on my Keycard, with the expiry date in large letters. Even though I as I running the risk of an RPI accusing me of disfiguring it!

Where do you draw the line? One day sounds great, what if the season expires on a Friday and I’m caught on a Monday? Let’s say working days then. What about Bank Holidays or annual leave?

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[spag23]

"Working day" seems a good place to draw the line, covering both weekend and bank holiday scenarios. An unnoticed expiry during annual leave would be much rarer, and something the passenger would perhaps need to argue and prove. I know that after a good holiday, I used to forget my office PC password, let alone remember my Keycard's expiry date!
It strikes me that it's good PR for the TOCs to show some leniency to their core customer base and income source when a passenger makes a genuine error.

 

[Hadders]

"Working day" seems a good place to draw the line, covering both weekend and bank holiday scenarios. An unnoticed expiry during annual leave would be much rarer, and something the passenger would perhaps need to argue and prove. I know that after a good holiday, I used to forget my office PC password, let alone remember my Keycard's expiry date!
It strikes me that it's good PR for the TOCs to show some leniency to their core customer base and income source when a passenger makes a genuine error.

Good PR but a fare dodgers paradise.

What about people who work weekends and bank holidays? These people are probably more likely to use season tickets these days than your typical office worker who’s probably working from home for half of their time.

Sounds like a way to get up to 3 days travel for free.

 

[Haywain]

Sounds like a way to get up to 3 days travel for free.

Or rather more at Easter!

In any event, it is common practice to allow people buying a season ticket to refund a ticket bought earlier the same day for the same journey.

 

[Hadders]

Or rather more at Easter!

In any event, it is common practice to allow people buying a season ticket to refund a ticket bought earlier the same day for the same journey.

And you can renew a season ticket before expiry of the current one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is one case where gatelines are of great benefit, because (Railcards aside) provided you don't ask to be let through and actually take time to check validity if rejected, you won't end up travelling illegally.

The error here was to ask to be let through and for the staff to have let them through without paying attention to the gateline error code.

(It would help if the gateline error code was also displayed in human-readable text for the passenger to see - if it said "ticket out of date" you'd check!)

 

[Titfield]

The point is where do you draw the line?

In the vast majority of cases discretion is shown, we generally only see cases on here where discretion hasn’t been shown and in many of those cases there will be more to the story than what’s been posted on here.

The best rule of thumb is not to expect any discretion but if you engage at the earliest opportunity in many cases it will be shown.

and a further issue is that when discretion is shown (but obviously not in all cases) then there are complaints / comments about a lack of consistency.

 

[jumble]

In my account there was indeed one good apple. But I still wonder what would have happened to her if her actions had been witnessed by a manager or an RPI.
But you ignore the second, bad, apple (just as he'd ignored the printed receipt I showed him).
From Ms Pickett's case and many others on this forum, it's easy to gain the impression that TOCs take delight in prosecuting cases where the passenger has clearly made a genuine error; especially given the ticket complexities that only get resolved (sometimes) after long discussions with this forum's experts.

What action do you think the TOC should take when their attemps to regularise the situation are ignored ?

 

[spag23]

But the traveller would realise that their ticket had just run out on the FIRST day (be it weekday, weekend, bank holiday) that they tried to use it, ie queried by staff or barrier. So that'll be the day they (belatedly) renew. They wouldn't get one free day, let alone three. And the event could be recorded, so the concession can only be invoked once a year. Most people would be more alert to expiry after one such "yellow card". And, if put in the NRCoC, this would all be consistent, and remove the discretion that posters seem to dislike.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the traveller would realise that their ticket had just run out on the FIRST day (be it weekday, weekend, bank holiday) that they tried to use it, ie queried by staff or barrier. So that'll be the day they (belatedly) renew. They wouldn't get one free day, let alone three. And the event could be recorded, so the concession can only be invoked once a year. Most people would be more alert to expiry after one such "yellow card". And, if put in the NRCoC, this would all be consistent, and remove the discretion that posters seem to dislike.

The best fix for this is for seasons to be sold on monthly direct debit. Then you can't forget.

 

[spag23]

Yeah but.. No sensible person who travels on a "monthly" ticket would want to buy twelve a year. Such a scheduled payment would often be on a (unused) weekend day (or equivalent rest period), and they'd be paying throughout their 4-6 weeks of annual leave. When I worked standard office hours, I'd always start the ticket on a Monday (or Tuesday if Monday was a bank holiday). And I'd extend the fifth week to cover up to Friday, each extra day costing only 1/30 of the monthly price. I'd invoke longer extensions to ensure validity ceased just before I went on leave, and only re-start on my return. This policy meant I'd only ever pay the equivalent of 9.5 monthly tickets per year, less than an annual ticket, and without the TOC having all my money up front. It also meant I could more easily pause my ticket purchases in the event of a long illness, overseas posting, or any unforeseen event (eg Lockdown). Yes, you'd lose free travel on one weekend in five, but those missing 20 days never impacted me.

 

[robbeech]

and a further issue is that when discretion is shown (but obviously not in all cases) then there are complaints / comments about a lack of consistency.

And so there should be. I’m all for discretion but it needs to explained as such to minimise to necessity of discretion in the future.

If a passenger gets to a gateline and a ticket has expired and a member of staff can sell a ticket, that’s fine but the passenger needs to be told in no uncertain terms that the staff member is using their discretion and that the rules state this would not normally be possible.

This should also be implemented for people trying to buy on board where their origin had ticketing facilities. Most guards (certainly on Northern) will just sell you a ticket, so people assume that’s ok, until the day they get a penalty fare or far worse.

By all means sell them a ticket, by all means let them through a barrier, but make it clear to them that they should have done it differently.

 

[island]

And so there should be. I’m all for discretion but it needs to explained as such to minimise to necessity of discretion in the future.

If a passenger gets to a gateline and a ticket has expired and a member of staff can sell a ticket, that’s fine but the passenger needs to be told in no uncertain terms that the staff member is using their discretion and that the rules state this would not normally be possible.

This should also be implemented for people trying to buy on board where their origin had ticketing facilities. Most guards (certainly on Northern) will just sell you a ticket, so people assume that’s ok, until the day they get a penalty fare or far worse.

By all means sell them a ticket, by all means let them through a barrier, but make it clear to them that they should have done it differently.

That's all fine in theory until the day it gets a staff member punched for "talking down to me".

 

[spag23]

But when a demonstrably regular passenger apologetically presents themselves to destination staff, explaining that they'd only just realised their season ticket had expired the day before, being told that "they `should have done it differently" can only be regarded as pointless, unhelpful and (yes) patronising.

 

[robbeech]

That's all fine in theory until the day it gets a staff member punched for "talking down to me".

A very valid point.