A question for all passenger mainline drivers.

[niceman]

Hi

I'm currently training with Avanti atm.

I'd like to hear the difference in answers if there are any, from qualified drivers any TOC.

When stopped at a platform, and you're on a single yellow, at the end of the platform.
You've closed the doors and you're good to go.
Next signal we will assume is a red. Stop signal.
Assuming good rail and weather conditions. So you will be at 15mph over the next AWS magnet at the next stop signal.
I understand, different line speeds and whether there are crossings etc before the stop signal will effect this answer.

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

I'd also value advice on various 'maximum speeds' on different line speeds for question 1 please.

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.
but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?


Mainly question 1. but thanks for any advice. cheers

 

[r1_biker]

I will have a crack at number 2 which may help number 1.

Single yellow approaching Waterloo, 20mph max for me.

Single yellow in the sticks crack on past at 85mph and don't even touch the brake till later .

No solid one size fits all

 

[westcoaster]

Don't forget different TOC's have different rules and procedures.

My TOC is 20 mph at the AWS magnet for a red.
The speed you go at would depend on how far away the next signal is, gradient tunnels TPWS and TPWS plus grids, and PSR changes or reductions. In general it will be down to your route knowledge.


On some sections we have miles between signals so you could go quite high, but in other places we can go from G YY Y R in the space of a 12 car train.

 

[Raikkonen7]

I don’t drive on particularly fast lines so signal sections are shorter than ones you’ll drive on but if I’m leaving on a single yellow, I won’t take full power to reinforce that I’m approaching a red.

I’ll get it up to 30-35mph and let it coast so I’m doing about 30mph at the over speed if there is one and then get it down to 15-20mph at the magnet to stop at the red.

 

[RiverDon]

Trainee here currently out building hours so I can only answer for what I have been trained so far.

For Q1 my instructor would want me to be accelerating to no more than 35-40mph depending on how far away the red is, linespeed and gradient and using risk triggered commentary to remind myself of the red ahead. Also I must not take full power, this is critical. So to depart the station in this case it would be: check signal, say out loud 'single yellow', reset DRA, check signal again, take power but not full power, say 'single yellow red ahead', when passing the signal and accelerate slowly to an appropriate speed (definitely no more than about 40ish but possibly less) and say 'red ahead' as needed to keep the red fresh in your short term memory. Slowing to around 25mph at the TPWS magnet and then 15mph at the AWS magnet to stop 20m from the red.

For Q2 we don't have specific speeds listed in the driving handbook for passing double yellow or single yellow so it is up to your discretion. I've been taught that the key thing is you actually make a positive reaction to the yellow and don't just cruise past. So cancelling the AWS, saying out loud 'single yellow' and actually powering off and/or brake into step 2 depending how far away the red is. But you absolutely must take some sort of action when you pass the signal. Press Call React is what my company calls it.



*Edited* - just realised you meant the signal at the end of the platform ahead of you is yellow and you haven't already passed it before the platform, so you wouldn't have set DRA in that instance.

 

[800301]

Hi

I'm currently training with Avanti atm.

I'd like to hear the difference in answers if there are any, from qualified drivers any TOC.

When stopped at a platform, and you're on a single yellow, at the end of the platform.
You've closed the doors and you're good to go.
Next signal we will assume is a red. Stop signal.
Assuming good rail and weather conditions. So you will be at 15mph over the next AWS magnet at the next stop signal.
I understand, different line speeds and whether there are crossings etc before the stop signal will effect this answer.

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

I'd also value advice on various 'maximum speeds' on different line speeds for question 1 please.

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.
but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?


Mainly question 1. but thanks for any advice. cheers

Follow your professional driving policy, eventually you’ll work something out that works for you alongside the policy and that’s what matters, there isn’t a set speed you should or shouldn’t do, not that avanti have it but ATP and ETCS do show a maximum speed that you can do towards a stop signal/EOA


I personally treat every signal differently which is something you build with route knowledge, again your TOC may have a policy that you must use X amount of brake force on sight of a restrictive signal which they will be looking for on a download/ride out but as with the railway there are always exceptions

 

[Tomnick]

Broadly in line with what others have said...

Hi

I'm currently training with Avanti atm.

I'd like to hear the difference in answers if there are any, from qualified drivers any TOC.

When stopped at a platform, and you're on a single yellow, at the end of the platform.
You've closed the doors and you're good to go.
Next signal we will assume is a red. Stop signal.
Assuming good rail and weather conditions. So you will be at 15mph over the next AWS magnet at the next stop signal.
I understand, different line speeds and whether there are crossings etc before the stop signal will effect this answer.

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

How far away is the next signal? That's obviously a significant factor. What's the layout in between? There's few things more frustrating than coming to a stand at a signal to wait for a conflicting move to clear at an unnecessarily glacial pace (one driver's defensive driving is another driver's increased SPAD risk!). What's the company driving policy? Ours is no more than 20mph over the magnet. Are you leaving on a yellow because you're following another train (in which case you can, with experience and route knowledge, judge the pace required to maintain steady progress!) or is it something that you always do because the next signal is approach released (in which case you don't want to unnecessarily dawdle as you're just delaying yourself, but obviously don't want to go charging up to it with the assumption that it'll clear)?

Anywhere between 10mph and 50mph on my routes. The only common factor is that I'll always take reduced power, even if it's only notch 6 instead of 7, and keep my hand on the power controller as a further reminder.

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.

Why do you need to be down to half speed by the single yellow? Half the speed means a quarter of the kinetic energy, and also means potentially a long crawl (and risk of losing focus) until you sight the red. I usually aim for something like 2/3 speed by the single yellow, but obviously vary that depending on a number of factors.

but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?

The signalling design allows for service braking distance from the signal itself. On some routes, with the red protecting a level crossing, the yellow often won't step up to a green until you're very close to it. Route knowledge and experience, again.

I personally treat every signal differently which is something you build with route knowledge, again your TOC may have a policy that you must use X amount of brake force on sight of a restrictive signal which they will be looking for on a download/ride out but as with the railway there are always exceptions

I really dislike arbitrary and (imo) daft requirements like that. Does it apply even if you've just started moving when you first sight the restrictive aspect? What if (as is the case on one of our routes) the restrictive aspect is over 5 miles away when you first sight it?

We've just had a similar thing taken out of ours, that quite firmly mandated a brake application immediately upon acknowledging the AWS at a PSR warning board. I'm all for taking some sort of positive action, especially at a warning board where there's a risk of leaving it and then forgetting about it, but firmly believe that the finer details need to be left in the capable hands of the highly trained and professional driver.

 

[vikingdriver]

Once you go past that yellow, you're on their time. Take as long as you feel is needed to safely get to that red - worst case scenario they ask for a delay report.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Hi

I'm currently training with Avanti atm.

I'd like to hear the difference in answers if there are any, from qualified drivers any TOC.

When stopped at a platform, and you're on a single yellow, at the end of the platform.
You've closed the doors and you're good to go.
Next signal we will assume is a red. Stop signal.
Assuming good rail and weather conditions. So you will be at 15mph over the next AWS magnet at the next stop signal.
I understand, different line speeds and whether there are crossings etc before the stop signal will effect this answer.

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

I'd also value advice on various 'maximum speeds' on different line speeds for question 1 please.

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.
but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?


Mainly question 1. but thanks for any advice. cheers

It is entirely dependent on the location, TOC, traction, weather, etc. There's no set answer to either of your questions.

 

[800301]

I really dislike arbitrary and (imo) daft requirements like that. Does it apply even if you've just started moving when you first sight the restrictive aspect? What if (as is the case on one of our routes) the restrictive aspect is over 5 miles away when you first sight it?

We've just had a similar thing taken out of ours, that quite firmly mandated a brake application immediately upon acknowledging the AWS at a PSR warning board. I'm all for taking some sort of positive action, especially at a warning board where there's a risk of leaving it and then forgetting about it, but firmly believe that the finer details need to be left in the capable hands of the highly trained and professional driver.

I complete agree with you, there are many things that I don’t particularly like with our PDP or advice offered but as with most things railway, just do as you’re told.

While that particular thing of Step 2 or 60% (Significant brake application) on sight of a restrictive signal isn’t in our PDP it is in our Autumn brief and relating to Red and Black days, however ever incident report about a TPWS or SPAD always has it listed as advice at the bottom

 

[RiverDon]

As trainees I think we really need to trust our instructors and do as they say. If they want you to drive a particular way then you need to get on with it and do it. There are a couple of things my instructor has me doing that I think I might be a little bit more relaxed about once I'm passed out and on my own but I recognize they are just trying to get us into good driving habits from day 1.

Also it's definitely ok to ask your instructor why we do a certain thing in a particular situation but I wouldn't be coming on here to ask what folk think about you've been told and then telling them that 'well actually other drivers say X Y or Z about it'. That would be a guaranteed way to annoy them and potentially risk your relationship with them. Though I'm sure you wouldn't do that!

 

[PLY2AYS]

If you’re on restrictive aspects when you know you should be on greens with the timetabling/stopping pattern, then take all the time that you feel safe to prepare yourself for the next signal.

Personal strategies I use; never take full power against restrictive aspects, RTC which should be hot in your mind as a trainee, is a really good tool if you repeat it 3x out loud… sticks in the short/medium term memory slightly longer apparently.
Half line speed MAX at single yellows under 4 aspect signalling (can be a TOC specific ruling), probably aiming to exceed no more than that if a short-ish signal section after leaving a platform on a yellow under 3 aspect.
Always have a (rough worst case scenario) braking performance check marker for every stop and some signals, especially if they’re approach controlled.

Hope these help and best of luck with the rest of your training!

 

[driverd]

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

I'd also value advice on various 'maximum speeds' on different line speeds for question 1 please.

For me, about 30mph, but this depends heavily on where I am - so factors like signal spacing (more than anything), gradient and potential for low adhesion.

Where I differ to others is I would happily take full power. What I would do, however, is something different whilst at a stand. Typically I'd leave the direction selector in forward and brake in step 1 - in this scenario I'd probably select neutral and step 3, using this to jog my memory before using RTC "single yellow, red ahead, 30 max".

As a good strategy, I'd always link your power hand to signal aspect - that is to say, if you move that hand, you vocalise your aspect as you start.

As an aside, why do you flag up crossings as something that may change your drive profile?

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.
but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?

It's always been 60-40-20 (YY-Y-Magnet) when I was at a TOC, but that will vary between operators PDP (especially at higher speeds).

I still broadly aim for 40 at a single yellow. Its certainly not always achievable, sometimes your route knowledge over rules and it can be a LOT faster. It also sometimes leads to a serious crawl up to the red, but as a good guide it certainly has kept me out of trouble.

 

[Tomnick]

I complete agree with you, there are many things that I don’t particularly like with our PDP or advice offered but as with most things railway, just do as you’re told.

Or you elect reps (who, at functional level, should be able to have input and influence on a consultative basis) who care about making PDPs and autumn guidance actually workable

10mph at the ramp of terminal platforms has long been a big bugbear of mine, ever since I was focussing so much on the ramp going into a very short platform that I nearly overlooked the TPWS OSS which is actually  before the ramp! My argument was that the most important risk to manage is not the TPWS OSS but rather the buffer stops themselves, and that by imposing a driving policy requirement to mitigate the risk of a TPWS intervention, we were actually undermining the effectiveness of the safety system specifically designed to mitigate the far more significant buffer stop collision risk. In practice, that often meant either having to take power against the buffer stops just to get all the way in, or such a long crawl that there was a serious risk of losing focus.

 

[800301]

Or you elect reps (who, at functional level, should be able to have input and influence on a consultative basis) who care about making PDPs and autumn guidance actually workable

10mph at the ramp of terminal platforms has long been a big bugbear of mine, ever since I was focussing so much on the ramp going into a very short platform that I nearly overlooked the TPWS OSS which is actually  before the ramp! My argument was that the most important risk to manage is not the TPWS OSS but rather the buffer stops themselves, and that by imposing a driving policy requirement to mitigate the risk of a TPWS intervention, we were actually undermining the effectiveness of the safety system specifically designed to mitigate the far more significant buffer stop collision risk. In practice, that often meant either having to take power against the buffer stops just to get all the way in, or such a long crawl that there was a serious risk of losing focus.

Luckily we only have to do 10 at the platform ramp when permissive working which isn’t too bad, the wording in our autumn brief has been amended so 10/20 is now a target rather than a limit.

 

[King Lazy]

When I was very early in training on a 15X DMU an instructor once told me “no more than notch 4, no more than 30mph”.

This was leaving a station on a single yellow. Next signal round the corner. Line speed 100 approaching the red. It was an Avanti station so maybe one you’ll be familiar with.

His explaination was thus.

Our policy was 20mph at the AWS magnet (or equivalent distance) at the time.

We did most of our braking using brake step 1 (c33% on a variable brake) with step 2 to adjust and step 3 (full service) or emergency only if in trouble.

He said “if you can stop from 20 at the magnet in step one then if you switch off and the magnet alerts you you’ll stop from 30 in full service.

30 also wasn’t high enough to (generally) trouble the over speed sensors on approach.

I have used this approach ever since.

There are plenty of places I could go higher. Even up to 50+. But the overspeed sensor is the additional risk if you switch off.

Naturally there are places with short signal sections where 30 would be too fast. Or where the AWS magnet is unusually close to the signal. And factors such as adhesion and weather always need to be taken into account.

This is why when route learning it’s is important to learn specific risks on routes. And ask other people. Everyone has different stories of when they nearly messed up. Or when something bit them.

You can have the best instructor in the world but in that 200-300 hours they may not point out a risk. While one day the least professional driver at the depot may say “watch out for that, I struggled to stop there one day because of……”

I’ve seen incidents over the years where people have been driving well, unaware of a risk that hasn’t been picked up by the route briefs and no one has ever noticed.

As an example. A signal that is rarely at danger. One day a track circuit failure holds it at red. Driver approaches within driving policy but trips the over speed because the grids were unusually close to the yellow for whatever reason. Until it happens no one notices.

I’ve digressed a lot but as a TL-DR

I think that instructors advice was generally sound.
But one size fits all doesn’t work on the railway as there is so much variation.
And you can pick up useful stuff everywhere. Even from “less professional” colleagues.

It’s up to you to decide what works for you, what to discard and what to apply.

Good luck with your career.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2025 ==


Edit- to answer second question…

As for the second question.

I don’t overanalyse despite my previous long post.

I always aim to follow the advice I mentioned for starting on yellows/

So when I pass a single yellow I’m not that fussed about the speed I pass it. I’m aiming to get my speed to c30 to not trouble the overspeed sensors and mitigate against switching off closer to the magnet/signal.

So if driving at 100+ on 4 aspect. When I see a double yellow I’ll start a normal brake application and aim for c60. Just before the single yellow I’ll start braking again looking to drop to c30.

As ever, signal spacing/line speed etc applies.

But ultimately you always work on the idea there is a red at the end. So I’m always working my way towards that 30.

As for 3 aspect.

I often hear drivers say “I came round at 100 and there was single yellow. Almost soiled myself”.

It’s not foolproof but remember you don’t have to be at every limit all the time.

I often follow stoppers. Even if I’m on a green I know I’ll usually catch a yellow at a certain signal with late sighting on a curve at 100 on most days.

So I drive one extra signal section at 75 and when I sight the signal go up to 100.

Likewise in low adhesion conditions.

The signals where I know I can get a single yellow at 100mph with late sighting and might have issues. I’ll drop to say 80 before I sight it. If the signal is green I’ll power back up. If it’s yellow I’ve done 1/5th of my braking already. Huge mitigation.

Given that most signal sections are probably around a mile apart at 75-80 instead of 100 I’ll lose c12-9 seconds per mile. Which can be the same as an old lady not lifting her case on at first attempt. Or someone not getting behind the yellow line at the station.

Again, good luck.

 

[PupCuff]

My argument was that the most important risk to manage is not the TPWS OSS but rather the buffer stops themselves, and that by imposing a driving policy requirement to mitigate the risk of a TPWS intervention, we were actually undermining the effectiveness of the safety system specifically designed to mitigate the far more significant buffer stop collision risk. In practice, that often meant either having to take power against the buffer stops just to get all the way in, or such a long crawl that there was a serious risk of losing focus.

I'd probably jump in there with a view that the risk that is being mitigated by the driving policy is a performance risk rather than a safety risk.

A TPWS incident in these circumstances is very minor in the grand scheme of things, but the potential performance impact is high - stopping short and blocking up the throat risks delay costs, the delay to the incident train pulling into the platform risks causing reactionary delays to the rest of the diagram, the Signaller and Driver's time completing the paperwork has a cost associated with it, the time for the head office and management teams in dealing with post incident reports, the impact that the incident will have on the internal and national rail industry safety performance metrics, etc. All over what is at most a 2 or 3 mph excess on an already heavily restricted speed limit.

I suppose it boils down to a question of does a TPWS loop set to a low speed when train speeds are low anyway actually achieve a meaningful reduction in buffer stop collisions or does it cause more faff simply existing in the first place, when you look at the whole system, trying to reduce an already manageable risk?

 

[Annetts key]

I'd probably jump in there with a view that the risk that is being mitigated by the driving policy is a performance risk rather than a safety risk.

A TPWS incident in these circumstances is very minor in the grand scheme of things, but the potential performance impact is high - stopping short and blocking up the throat risks delay costs, the delay to the incident train pulling into the platform risks causing reactionary delays to the rest of the diagram, the Signaller and Driver's time completing the paperwork has a cost associated with it, the time for the head office and management teams in dealing with post incident reports, the impact that the incident will have on the internal and national rail industry safety performance metrics, etc. All over what is at most a 2 or 3 mph excess on an already heavily restricted speed limit.

I suppose it boils down to a question of does a TPWS loop set to a low speed when train speeds are low anyway actually achieve a meaningful reduction in buffer stop collisions or does it cause more faff simply existing in the first place, when you look at the whole system, trying to reduce an already manageable risk?

A couple of points: If the TPWS incident is reported by the signaller, S&T will be called to attend to check the TPWS installation.
If the signaller decides that the TPWS trackside equipment is or may be defective, all subsequent trains may be stopped and the drivers advised of the problem before being allowed to proceed.

One of the limitations of TPWS is that the "set speed" (activation speed) for overspeed systems and position (distance from point of confliction/speed limit commencement/buffer stop) for all TPWS installations is a compromise. The TPWS installation has to be able to deal with trains with the worst case braking systems permitted (older trains that have poor braking curves, e.g. loco and coaching stock for a passenger train) while trying not to unnecessarily affect trains with better braking characteristics.

Freight trains have a different timer (TPWS uses a timer to determine if a brake application is needed) compared to passenger trains to help with the different braking characteristics. But again, this is a compromise.

For higher line speeds, an acceptable compromise is harder to obtain.

Hence why drivers of modern trains that have good braking systems are encouraged to think about their speed when approaching a TPWS installation.

 

[800301]

A couple of points: If the TPWS incident is reported by the signaller, S&T will be called to attend to check the TPWS installation.
If the signaller decides that the TPWS trackside equipment is or may be defective, all subsequent trains may be stopped and the drivers advised of the problem before being allowed to proceed.

One of the limitations of TPWS is that the "set speed" (activation speed) for overspeed systems and position (distance from point of confliction/speed limit commencement/buffer stop) for all TPWS installations is a compromise. The TPWS installation has to be able to deal with trains with the worst case braking systems permitted (older trains that have poor braking curves, e.g. loco and coaching stock for a passenger train) while trying not to unnecessarily affect trains with better braking characteristics.

Freight trains have a different timer (TPWS uses a timer to determine if a brake application is needed) compared to passenger trains to help with the different braking characteristics. But again, this is a compromise.

For higher line speeds, an acceptable compromise is harder to obtain.

Hence why drivers of modern trains that have good braking systems are encouraged to think about their speed when approaching a TPWS installation.

Going slightly off topic now but TPWS as a whole does give me a bit of anxiety because it’s unknown what the speeds are, there are places that aren’t TPWS fitted and because of that your approach can be much different, when ever I’m being stopped at a signal I never really have I’m always extra careful to make sure I’ve got my speed down just in case.

We’ve got one TPWS hotspot on our route where if running at line speed and you brake in step 2 (66%) at the AWS for the double yellow, you’ll still get tripped at OSS+

 

[PLY2AYS]

Going slightly off topic now but TPWS as a whole does give me a bit of anxiety because it’s unknown what the speeds are, there are places that aren’t TPWS fitted and because of that your approach can be much different, when ever I’m being stopped at a signal I never really have I’m always extra careful to make sure I’ve got my speed down just in case.

We’ve got one TPWS hotspot on our route where if running at line speed and you brake in step 2 (66%) at the AWS for the double yellow, you’ll still get tripped at OSS+

Presumably you’re at GWR or a similar TOC where managers don’t tell you TPWS settings for over speed?
I’ve had a few ride alongs where DMs, DIs and mentors happily reel off over speed speeds at the TPWS…
Was a pretty stark contrast to management at my previous TOC.

 

[800301]

Presumably you’re at GWR or a similar TOC where managers don’t tell you TPWS settings for over speed?
I’ve had a few ride alongs where DMs, DIs and mentors happily reel off over speed speeds at the TPWS…
Was a pretty stark contrast to management at my previous TOC.

Yeah, to some degree, I’d rather not know the speed as if I get comfortable doing just under there might be one day where I’m going quicker than usual for whatever reason and then get tripped, the way most of them are set now, TPWS will intervene before ATP even gives a warning

 

[PLY2AYS]

Yeah, to some degree, I’d rather not know the speed as if I get comfortable doing just under there might be one day where I’m going quicker than usual for whatever reason and then get tripped, the way most of them are set now, TPWS will intervene before ATP even gives a warning

Agreed… but I like to have them as a braking marker. If I’m doing well under the setting, I know I’m safe. Additionally gives me a good idea of railhead conditions, very handy at this time of year.
I’m at a TOC that had ATP but doesn’t any more, so the TPWS overspeed grids are the first line of defence against speeding. So that could be the reason for the culture difference between TOCs.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not a driver, but I imagine there are so many factors involved that there cannot be an answer here. The gradient, type of stock (for both acceleration and braking characteristics), geometry of track, weather/lighting, signalling layout and spacing, etc., will all be important. I think drivers develop their own regime based on feeling and experience, on top of route training. I think the questions are valid but there can be no substitute for feeling and 'live' instruction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2025 ==

Presumably you’re at GWR or a similar TOC where managers don’t tell you TPWS settings for over speed?
I’ve had a few ride alongs where DMs, DIs and mentors happily reel off over speed speeds at the TPWS…
Was a pretty stark contrast to management at my previous TOC.

That is very poor and partly negates the point of the system.

 

[skyhigh]

That is very poor and partly negates the point of the system.

How so?

It seems extremely obtuse to me that TPWS is fitted, will go on your record if you trip it, but the speed it's set at is a secret.

I can't see how briefing the set speeds negates the point of the installation? Trains will still be stopped if travelling above the set speed.

 

[Efini92]

Hi

I'm currently training with Avanti atm.

I'd like to hear the difference in answers if there are any, from qualified drivers any TOC.

When stopped at a platform, and you're on a single yellow, at the end of the platform.
You've closed the doors and you're good to go.
Next signal we will assume is a red. Stop signal.
Assuming good rail and weather conditions. So you will be at 15mph over the next AWS magnet at the next stop signal.
I understand, different line speeds and whether there are crossings etc before the stop signal will effect this answer.

1) What's the 'maximum speed' you would go 'up to' before that stop signal? Let's say it's a clear line, no crossings etc, and the lines speed is 100mph.

I'd also value advice on various 'maximum speeds' on different line speeds for question 1 please.

2) As a side question. When driving out in the sticks, 4 aspect, you see the double yellow and you need to be down to half line speed by the single yellow.
but if 3 aspect, you see the single yellow in the distant, what speed or reduction of speed do you like to get to as you hit the single yellow in preparation for the stop signal?


Mainly question 1. but thanks for any advice. cheers

Just stick with the working instructions for point 1.
For point 2 it all comes down to route knowledge. There’s no one size fits all on the Wcml. What’s important is you know where the short selections are ready to brake as soon as you sight the two yellows.

 

[Deepgreen]

How so?

It seems extremely obtuse to me that TPWS is fitted, will go on your record if you trip it, but the speed it's set at is a secret.

I can't see how briefing the set speeds negates the point of the installation? Trains will still be stopped if travelling above the set speed.

I understood (possibly wrongly) the point made to have been that a secret over-speed setting had been disclosed to a driver thereby potentially 'allowing' an over-speed in excess of the posted speed limit. In the event of an incident, the recorded speed of the train in excess of the TPWS's supposed limit may emerge, and questions would be asked about why that speed had been achieved. It depends on the margins, of course.

 

[Efini92]

I understood (possibly wrongly) the point made to have been that a secret over-speed setting had been disclosed to a driver thereby potentially 'allowing' an over-speed in excess of the posted speed limit. In the event of an incident, the recorded speed of the train in excess of the TPWS's supposed limit may emerge, and questions would be asked about why that speed had been achieved. It depends on the margins, of course.

You can’t beat the TPWS.

 

[Tomnick]

I understood (possibly wrongly) the point made to have been that a secret over-speed setting had been disclosed to a driver thereby potentially 'allowing' an over-speed in excess of the posted speed limit. In the event of an incident, the recorded speed of the train in excess of the TPWS's supposed limit may emerge, and questions would be asked about why that speed had been achieved. It depends on the margins, of course.

TPWS overspeed doesn't mean that the train's exceeding the permissible speed at that location, it merely means that it's exceeding the TPWS set-speed which (according to the TPWS design for that location) means there is a risk that the train isn't braking sufficiently (or at all) to comply with a subsequent reduction in permissible speed or stop at a signal at danger.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I'm not a driver

That is very poor and partly negates the point of the system.

You’re clearly not a standards/competency manager or route assessor either then…

Knowing the TPWS overspeed settings are, in my professional experience, enhanced (or additional to) route knowledge, and a key component of situational awareness and should be, in my opinion, easily accessible information.

It seems extremely obtuse to me that TPWS is fitted, will go on your record if you trip it, but the speed it's set at is a secret.

I can't see how briefing the set speeds negates the point of the installation? Trains will still be stopped if travelling above the set speed.

I could not agree more.

It shouldn’t take an operational incident report to be published for these speeds to become common knowledge.

 

[skyhigh]

I understood (possibly wrongly)

Yes, you have completely misunderstood.

There is no such thing as a "secret setting" that allows a train to get past a TPWS without being triggered.

What is being discussed is, for example, a speed reduction from 90mph to 60mph. The TPWS over speed grids are located where linespeed is still 90 before the 60 limit commences, but set at 72mph.

This could result in a train travelling below the permitted line speed and still easily within the braking capability of the unit being stopped. This is because the TPWS is set to account for the worst performing stock that may use the line, not just modern units.

It is a bit like having a speed camera set at an unknown speed below the speed limit. All that is being disclosed is what the set speed is, not some secret way of bypassing the set speed of the TPWS.

Knowing the speeds has no real impact on safety, but can improve performance.