A new south coast line - would it be worth it?

[Schweir]

Would a line, potentially running from Dorchester,running through Bridport before re-connecting at Axminster be worthwile? It would provide a direct service between cities such as Southampton, Exeter, Winchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth without mentioning other major population centres such as Poole,Bournemouth etc...

Admittedly there would be a major cost involved, but I am sure it would be heavily used?

Thoughts?

 

[superalbs]

As much as I'd like it, I don't think it'd really work out.

Is there a market for Plymouth/Exeter to the South Central coast?

 

[Schweir]

As much as I'd like it, I don't think it'd really work out.

Is there a market for Plymouth/Exeter to the South Central coast?

A lot of University students, tourists etc..

 

[Cowley]

It's a nice idea and it was a route that was proposed I think by the LSWR maybe? I'm remembering that from another thread recently.
I don't think in any way would there be enough traffic to justify such a scheme which would be massively expensive to build and not serve any particularly large population areas really, let alone the difficulties with the hilly terrain and areas of natural beauty that it would have to carve it's way through.
Driving from Exeter to Bournemouth is a certainly a pain though that much is true.

 

[PHILIPE]

A lot of University students, tourists etc..

It would have to be viable throughout the year not just during the tourist season and student breaks.

 

[Harbouring]

Going via Salisbury is hardly arduous. However you'd get much more vfm imo improving that route to get quicker journeys.

 

[yorksrob]

Interestingly enough, this was the original plan for the route between Southampton and Dorchester, hence why Dorchester South was originally aligned from East to West. The GWR blocked this route, so the line had to turn South towards Weymouth.

 

[JStrainspotter]

Sounds good. I would surely use it to visit places is the south west when going to Bournemouth etc. Drive and stay in Bournemouth, visit lots of towns and beaches along the coast without the stress of driving.
This was proposed many years ago when the SoTon to Dorchester line was built. one station at Bridport, that's it.

 

[Cowley]

It would have to be viable throughout the year not just during the tourist season and student breaks.

Very true. It does feel like a bit of a missing route though (along with quite a few others). All the viable routes between Devon and Dorset are fairly flawed, the A35 can take hours sometimes for what is just a ninety mile journey, the road has been improved though over the last couple of decades.

 

[Jake.Norman17]

Instead of building a complete new line. I think if any project of the sort took place it would more likely just be a curve put in it at Yeovil junction leading onto the Dorchester line.

It would result in direct services between Weymouth and Exeter, just not a quick as a new line between Axminster and Dorchester, plus it would be a lot cheaper then a new line

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think the advantages over the existing Southampton, Salisbury, Exeter route would be that great. Even in the heyday of new line construction they didn't build such a route.

There is a member here who regularly suggests an easier option of a west to south link at Yeovil Jn, combined with a north to east link at Dorchester, but that's a bit of a roundabout route as well.

You need to prove there is a large demand, not just assume there might be a demand.

 

[Cowley]

Instead of building a complete new line. I think if any project of the sort took place it would more likely just be a curve put in it at Yeovil junction leading onto the Dorchester line.

It would result in direct services between Weymouth and Exeter, just not a quick as a new line between Axminster and Dorchester, plus it would be a lot cheaper then a new line

This could be a good plan. Better to significantly improve what's currently available. There's definitely scope for a service that could beat the current bus/rail time of (I think) at least 4 hours for 90 miles.

 

[HowardGWR]

See discussion on the Bristol to Weymouth thread too.

The original route was planned in 1845 through Bridport, yes that would have worked but the guage war stopped it.

I think, for environmental and social reasons, as well as economic ones, that the southern chord at Yeovil is still desirable and needed.

The present RUS procedures, just as with Bristol to Weymouth, works against improving these links, as if the GWR LSWR gauge war was still being fought.

 

[Cowley]

See discussion on the Bristol to Weymouth thread too.

The original route was planned in 1845 through Bridport, yes that would have worked but the guage war stopped it.

I think, for environmental and social reasons, as well as economic ones, that the southern chord at Yeovil is still desirable and needed.

The present RUS procedures, just as with Bristol to Weymouth, works against improving these links, as if the GWR LSWR gauge war was still being fought.

At the risk of looking stupid, what are RUS procedures?

 

[Jake.Norman17]

This could be a good plan. Better to significantly improve what's currently available. There's definitely scope for a service that could beat the current bus/rail time of (I think) at least 4 hours for 90 miles.

Wouldn't be as fast as a direct line but it's probably a better, easier and cheaper solution if there was sufficient demand between exeter and dorchester

 

[Morgsie]

Isn't there a bus service from Poole to Exeter, the X53?

 

[swt_passenger]

At the risk of looking stupid, what are RUS procedures?

Route Utilisation Studies, or nowadays Route Studies, are part of the means by which Network Rail plan medium term improvements to usage of the network.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning/

Problem is that it isn't in DfT's brief to NR for them to propose entirely new routes. Short re-openings maybe, but not much in the way of blue sky thinking such as this would require...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't there a bus service from Poole to Exeter, the X53?

https://www.firstgroup.com/wessex-d.../jurassic-coaster/jurassic-coaster-timetables

According to that map that route has been split up and you'd need to change buses at Weymouth and Bridport. The was (don't know if there still is) a National Express coach which iirc was Helston-Eastbourne. I think it was 1 a day each way in the winter and 2 a day each way in the summer

 

[Cowley]

Route Utilisation Studies, or nowadays Route Studies, are part of the means by which Network Rail plan medium term improvements to usage of the network.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning/

Problem is that it isn't in DfT's brief to NR for them to propose entirely new routes. Short re-openings maybe, but not much in the way of blue sky thinking such as this would require...

Thanks for that.

 

[Cowley]

https://www.firstgroup.com/wessex-d.../jurassic-coaster/jurassic-coaster-timetables

According to that map that route has been split up and you'd need to change buses at Weymouth and Bridport. The was (don't know if there still is) a National Express coach which iirc was Helston-Eastbourne. I think it was 1 a day each way in the winter and 2 a day each way in the summer

Yes I was just trying to work the bus service out so that I could post it but it made my head hurt so I gave up.

 

[Harbouring]

Yes I was just trying to work the bus service out so that I could post it but it made my head hurt so I gave up.

It has seemed to have gone the way of the Coastliner 700, route split into thirds with overlapping sections. Although I did get the X53 from Axminster to Weymouth and it became the X54 to Poole so if you knew that you could get back on again.

 

[Cowley]

It has seemed to have gone the way of the Coastliner 700, route split into thirds with overlapping sections. Although I did get the X53 from Axminster to Weymouth and it became the X54 to Poole so if you knew that you could get back on again.

I remember buying a car from Bournemouth a few years ago and looking at the bus vs the train to get there. The bus took such a long time and in the end it was quicker to get the train to Salisbury and then another to Southampton before catching another down to Bournemouth. A very long time travelling to go not very far.

 

[Dr Hoo]

At the risk of looking stupid, what are RUS procedures?

Back in the days of the Strategic Rail Authority (around year 2000) it started producing Route Utilisation Strategies (RUSs).

When it was wound up the job was passed to Network Rail, which completed the set. There was a planning obligation under its licence.

I think that things have moved on and bit since then but there is still a programme to update 'route strategies'. Kent and West Midlands have been recent/ topical examples.

These strategies can be helpful in identifying options to upgrade existing routes. They are not really suitable for 'new' routes.

 

[30907]

Wouldn't be as fast as a direct line but it's probably a better, easier and cheaper solution if there was sufficient demand between exeter and dorchester

Problem being that the demand is more likely to be for Exeter-Bournemouth/Poole, and running via Yeovil-Dorchester saves little time (discussed on the Bristol-Weymouth thread).

Back to the original proposal (I've looked in some detail as my retirement project is to model part of the line In OO!) - one issue is that Axminster isn't easily served, the most direct route passes through Uplyme, and the gradients are fierce. If anyone has Lucking, Railways of Dorset, ca 1970, the maps in there are fascinating.... Anyway it will never be built in 12" to 1ft scale.

 

[randyrippley]

Would a line, potentially running from Dorchester,running through Bridport before re-connecting at Axminster be worthwile? It would provide a direct service between cities such as Southampton, Exeter, Winchester, Plymouth and Portsmouth without mentioning other major population centres such as Poole,Bournemouth etc...

Admittedly there would be a major cost involved, but I am sure it would be heavily used?

Thoughts?

I think you massively underestimate the difficulty of building both across the South Down chalkland and the various floodplains. The Yeovil-Exeter route skirts north of the chalk, and later along the River Axe for very sound reasons

 

[The Ham]

I agree that the best thing (for now) is improvements to the existing lines including more redoubling and short new lengths of line, possibly with the returning via Okehampton to bring Plymouth into the equation.

Once that's done journey times will have improved as will have journey options. That would increase flows and show if there's demand for a new line.

As things stand I would suggest that there's not really enough need to justify a new line when the other improvements would be of benefit in their own right as well as well as meeting some of the need for better connectivity.

 

[Envoy]

If you put in for a journey from Dorchester West to Exeter (return) on www.nationrail.co.uk and click ‘details’ , you will see just how ‘awkward’ such a journey is. Some of the options involve changing at Castle Cary. I checked on real time trains for CC and found that in some instances, the ‘nearest’ express to link with a Weymouth to Bristol service was not stopping at Castle Cary. So, the key to improving this link would be to try and match the east west line with the north south services.

Other options involve using the shorter South Western Route with a change at Yeovil. Now, here we have the problem that Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill are quite a way apart and a bus link is needed. An example timing for this route is Dep. Exeter at 16.24 > arr.Yeovil Junction at 17.28; 17.50 bus to Yeovil Pen Mill are.18.02; Dep Yeovil Pen Mill 18.22 > arr. Dorchester West at 18.55. So, a whole hour is wasted in the Yeovil area. There surely has got to be a better way of doing things? How about building a chord into Yeovil Junction from the Weymouth line? See map:> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.9272156,-2.6095643,1498m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

It looks to me like Yeovil Junction has spare platform capacity to accommodate the north - south trains.

 

[yorksrob]

A short reversal of North/South services into Yeovil Junction via a reinstated W/S chord would seem to be a sensible and achievable gain for connectivity in the region.

 

[randyrippley]

A short reversal of North/South services into Yeovil Junction via a reinstated W/S chord would seem to be a sensible and achievable gain for connectivity in the region.

"reinstated"? That curve was never built, just the embankment.
If you look closely at that google view I think you'll see it will be harder than imagined: you have to cross the remains of the Clifton Maybank spur, and then cross the throat of the track to the east of platforms 3/4 (now the Railway Centre). It would be a lot of track relaying, a very tight curve, and the Railway Centre would be cut off.
That unused embankment aligns with platform 4 - reopening of which will never happen

 

[A0]

Instead of building a complete new line. I think if any project of the sort took place it would more likely just be a curve put in it at Yeovil junction leading onto the Dorchester line.

It would result in direct services between Weymouth and Exeter, just not a quick as a new line between Axminster and Dorchester, plus it would be a lot cheaper then a new line

This was raised in the Bristol - Weymouth thread - here's what I posted on that about this suggestion when somebody raised it:

Two words - Business case.

Sorry - but there simply isn't the demand for a direct Bournemouth - Exeter service and certainly not enough to justify the improvements you suggest.

Currently Exeter - Yeovil takes approx 1h 15m. Yeovil - Weymouth 50m and Weymouth - Bournemouth 50m - all in just shy of 3 hours.

The average journey going via Southampton and Sailsbury is 3h 20m.

Even if you improved Yeovil - Weymouth - doubling etc - you'd struggle to save more than 15 mins.

So you're suggesting a massive improvement, for a 30 minute saving to provide a service between two medium sized places. The only places of size served en route would be Poole, Weymouth and Yeovil- that's it.

Weymouth - Yeovil is circa 30 miles - even on a *very* conservative £ 5m a mile to upgrade (bearing in mind signalling etc would need changing) you'd be looking at £ 150m.

Sorry - but it just doesn't stack up.