A mathermatical query raised by an eight-year old neighbour.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the numbers four, six, seven, eight and nine can all be suffixed with "teen", what was the number that makes the word "umpteen"?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Less of a mathematical question and more of an etymological one.

Apparently, comes from World War 1 military slang "umpty" meaning "many" and then teen with the regular meaning it has today.

So simply "many tens"

 

[hexagon789]

If the numbers four, six, seven, eight and nine can all be suffixed with "teen", what was the number that makes the word "umpteen"?

It doesn't derive from a number, rather the "ump" comes from the use of "umpty" and "iddy" as colloquial shorthand for dashes and dots in Morse code.

So, essentially, "dash" + 10 - meaning a large, unspecified number.

 

[Gloster]

The morse use may originate from an older word for an unspecified, probably largish, ordinal number. Earlier it may just been um-, with a possible connection to number.

EDIT: reference to thirteenth century removed, as it is probably not that old.

 

[MotCO]

If I can ask another number question?

The French word for 7 is 'sept', and 17 is 'dix-sept'. Why is 70 not 'septante', in the same way as 40 is 'quarante', 50 is 'cinquante' and 60 is 'soixante'? It is effectively '60 + 10'. Ditto 80 which is '4 x 20'.

There probably is no answer - it is the French after all , but it always struck me as strange.

 

[Tester]

If I can ask another number question?

The French word for 7 is 'sept', and 17 is 'dix-sept'. Why is 70 not 'septante', in the same way as 40 is 'quarante', 50 is 'cinquante' and 60 is 'soixante'? It is effectively '60 + 10'. Ditto 80 which is '4 x 20'.

There probably is no answer - it is the French after all , but it always struck me as strange.

Only the French do that - check out Switzerland and Belgium!

 

[hexagon789]

If I can ask another number question?

The French word for 7 is 'sept', and 17 is 'dix-sept'. Why is 70 not 'septante', in the same way as 40 is 'quarante', 50 is 'cinquante' and 60 is 'soixante'? It is effectively '60 + 10'. Ditto 80 which is '4 x 20'.

There probably is no answer - it is the French after all , but it always struck me as strange.

In Belgian and Swiss French they do use Septante, Huitante (I believe Belgium retains Quatre-Vingts here) and Nonante but "French" French sticks with the vigesimal (based on 20) sixty-ten, four-twenties and four-twenties and ten.

It's simply an older counting method, see for example Abraham Lincolns use of "four score and seven years ago" instead of simply saying eighty-seven years ago - it was for oratorical emphasis in his case, rather than being current usage, but the link with it being an older method of counting remains.

 

[eastwestdivide]

If I can ask another number question?

The French word for 7 is 'sept', and 17 is 'dix-sept'. Why is 70 not 'septante', in the same way as 40 is 'quarante', 50 is 'cinquante' and 60 is 'soixante'? It is effectively '60 + 10'. Ditto 80 which is '4 x 20'.

There probably is no answer - it is the French after all , but it always struck me as strange.

It’s a linguistic relic of a 20-based counting system
edit: what hexagon789 said while I was writing!

 

[Gloster]

If I can ask another number question?

The French word for 7 is 'sept', and 17 is 'dix-sept'. Why is 70 not 'septante', in the same way as 40 is 'quarante', 50 is 'cinquante' and 60 is 'soixante'? It is effectively '60 + 10'. Ditto 80 which is '4 x 20'.

There probably is no answer - it is the French after all , but it always struck me as strange.

The use of soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is a remnant of the old Celtic system of counting on a basis of twenties. Most numbers later went over to the Roman system based on tens, but these stuck. Septante and nonante are used in Belgium and Switzerland, but they use quatre-vingt-dix except in a few areas of Switzerland where they still use huitante.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Shillings in a pound had a base of 20, but pence in a shilling had a base of 12.

 

[hexagon789]

Shillings in a pound had a base of 20, but pence in a shilling had a base of 12.

Roman influence again...

Lsd - Librae, solidi, denarii

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If the numbers four, six, seven, eight and nine can all be suffixed with "teen", what was the number that makes the word "umpteen"?

Anyone know if the word 'umpteen' was previously in use prior to the early 20th century, with some different meaning, before its more recent use meaning that of an indefinite largish number?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyone know if the word 'umpteen' was previously in use prior to the early 20th century, with some different meaning, before its more recent use meaning that of an indefinite largish number?

Would I be right in thinking there was a TV advert about 40 years ago that used that "umpteen" word....."Mr Sheen shines umpteen things clean"?

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Would I be right in thinking there was a TV advert about 40 years ago that used that "umpteen" word....."Mr Sheen shines umpteen things clean"?

Yes, exactly that, and I'm pretty sure they reused the slogan much later too. I can find on YouTube videos featuring the slogan which claim to be from the 80s, 90s, and in one case 2006.

 

[Gloster]

Anyone know if the word 'umpteen' was previously in use prior to the early 20th century, with some different meaning, before its more recent use meaning that of an indefinite largish number?

There appears to be written evidence of umpteen being used in Australia and New Zealand, possibly as umteen, as early as 1878 and words are often in oral use for a while before appearing in print. It does appear to have had a roughly similar meaning to today.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would I be right in thinking there was a TV advert about 40 years ago that used that "umpteen" word....."Mr Sheen shines umpteen things clean"?

Yes. The (1980s?) one I've located online, however, certainly hasn't aged all that well, and likely wouldn't be aired these days.

 

[Gloster]

Yes. The (1980s?) one I've located online, however, certainly hasn't aged all that well, and likely wouldn't be aired these days.

Is that the one with ‘Mother’ from the Avengers? (Patrick Newell was in the army with Michael Caine. Very few people are aware of that.)

 

[The exile]

The use of soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is a remnant of the old Celtic system of counting on a basis of twenties. Most numbers later went over to the Roman system based on tens, but these stuck. Septante and nonante are used in Belgium and Switzerland, but they use quatre-vingt-dix except in a few areas of Switzerland where they still use huitante.

Is there not an “octante” variant as well?

 

[Gloster]

Is there not an “octante” variant as well?

Not really. This appears to have been spread by the internet based on an erroneous entry in a reference book saying that it was used in Belgium, Switzerland and Quebec. That said, it is possible that it is still in occasional dialect use, probably only in parts of Switzerland. If you used it they would probably know what you meant but look at you oddly.

 

[35B]

Anyone know if the word 'umpteen' was previously in use prior to the early 20th century, with some different meaning, before its more recent use meaning that of an indefinite largish number?

My Shorter OED says "early 20th Century"

 

[styles]

On a tangent, does anybody ever verify the primary source of such etymology claims?

I'd love to think there's someone in the OED office just working through old surnames and plausible-sounding publication titles, scribbling, "First recorded usage, The Dolomite Chronicles by Alistair McThurso, c.1817". "Yeah, that sounds good, let's use that!"

 

[35B]

On a tangent, does anybody ever verify the primary source of such etymology claims?

I'd love to think there's someone in the OED office just working through old surnames and plausible-sounding publication titles, scribbling, "First recorded usage, The Dolomite Chronicles by Alistair McThurso, c.1817". "Yeah, that sounds good, let's use that!"

There absolutely are those people, and they will spend time & effort checking them in detail

 

[Bevan Price]

On a tangent, does anybody ever verify the primary source of such etymology claims?

I'd love to think there's someone in the OED office just working through old surnames and plausible-sounding publication titles, scribbling, "First recorded usage, The Dolomite Chronicles by Alistair McThurso, c.1817". "Yeah, that sounds good, let's use that!"

Yoy need the help of someone like Susie Dent (Countdown, Channel 4)