A lifeline for Pilning?

[AlastairFraser]

My wife and I go up to Cribbs Causeway on Metrobuses once or twice a month on our bus passes and I need counselling to cope with the horror of the sight of Bradley Stoke and its vicinity. In fact ring-road Bristol is really horrible generally.

Agreed.

 

[contrex]

Agreed.

In the early 1970s I worked for the Ordnance Survey on a 1:1250 resurvey project; we covered most of what was to become the County of Avon later on. I remember Nailsea, Yate, Worle, Longwell Green, among others. It was a eye opener to see the awful cheapskate designs (e.g. breeze block walls faced with 'brick' coloured tiles), made worse by hasty, corner-cutting building. But the worst thing was the awful faceless, soulless, dead-looking anonymous look of the houses and their settings. I have to say I am a confirmed suburbia-hater, so maybe I am biased. I am aware that the Victorians hated the proliferation of 'snug suburban dwellings, staring villas, arranged in curving crescents and tree-lined avenues (Conan Doyle)', run up by speculative builders. They would not have liked my 1900 house in Bristol.

 

[AlastairFraser]

In the early 1970s I worked for the Ordnance Survey on a 1:1250 resurvey project; we covered most of what was to become the County of Avon later on. I remember Nailsea, Yate, Worle, Longwell Green, among others. It was a eye opener to see the awful cheapskate designs (e.g. breeze block walls faced with 'brick' coloured tiles), made worse by hasty, corner-cutting building. But the worst thing was the awful faceless, soulless, dead-looking anonymous look of the houses and their settings. I have to say I am a confirmed suburbia-hater, so maybe I am biased. I am aware that the Victorians hated the proliferation of 'snug suburban dwellings, staring villas, arranged in curving crescents and tree-lined avenues (Conan Doyle)', run up by speculative builders. They would not have liked my 1900 house in Bristol.

I don't understand why this kind of house building was particularly popular in the former Avon area, especially with the relative proximity of quarries than can produce good-quality Cotswold stone, although we're stuck with it now. What the former Avon area needs now is a electrified regional heavy rail metro system similar to the Dublin DART, and then perhaps a few tram lines, but the area has been ridiculously slow at getting the basics done, so I don't hold out hope.

 

[zwk500]

What the former Avon area needs now is a electrified regional heavy rail metro system similar to the Dublin DART,

the Airedale lines are probably a better comparison given the network structure and it's relationship to the travel demand in the area but yes broadly agree.

and then perhaps a few tram lines, but the area has been ridiculously slow at getting the basics done, so I don't hold out hope.

Also agree, although any tram network should be focused on purely Bristol at first.

 

[AlastairFraser]

the Airedale lines are probably a better comparison given the network structure and it's relationship to the travel demand in the area but yes broadly agree

It does need DART style frequency on the core to take enough people off the roads initially.

I think I've talked about this before on here, but I'd go for an early network of 30 min frequency on 4 corridors.

Corridor A - Thornbury to Weston-super-Mare via Yate and Bedminster.
Corridor B - Severn Beach to Swindon via Bath - would probably need a low speed curve west of Bath Road and south of Temple Meads to avoid a reversal there (e.g. southbound services coming from Lawrence Hill would head round the curve past St Philip's Marsh depot first, and use the new curve to enter Temple Meads - unless you wanted to dodge TM completely and interchange at Lawrence Hill/a Brislington station).

Corridor C - Henbury loop to Westbury via Bath (same Temple Meads based curve issue here, but either solution is potentially viable, or a fancy underground Temple Meads station further down the line).

Corridor D - Newport to Portishead via Filton - probably the simplest one to implement.

Also agree, although any tram network should be focused on purely Bristol at first.

Bristol on its proper boundaries, sure.
The City area should include large chunks of the current South Gloucs unitary and parts of the North Somerset unitary north of the A369 + Portbury docks).

 

[contrex]

I don't understand why this kind of house building was particularly popular in the former Avon area, especially with the relative proximity of quarries than can produce good-quality Cotswold stone

Cost, I imagine, and lack of necessary skills? Run them up quick and sell them. Buildiers operating on tight margins. I must say that as a small boy in Herne Hill, south London, I noticed that there was a noticeable slant to the top of our sitting-room door frame, and that the door had been made to fit. The house was a terrace, 1890 approx. I asked my mother, and she said two words 'jerry built'. The first time I heard that expression.

[EDIT] I don't know that it was confined to, or even more used in, the former Avon area, I just haven't any knowledge of elsewhere (except London as I mentioned above)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2025 ==

The City area should include large chunks of the current South Gloucs unitary

Didn't the last effort ('Supertram') fail in 2004 after S Glos threw its toys out of the pram because it couldn't have a link to Cribbs Causeway (which would have added £100M to the cost and 2 years to the completion time ?)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Cost, I imagine, and lack of necessary skills? Run them up quick and sell them. Buildiers operating on tight margins. I must say that as a small boy in Herne Hill, south London, I noticed that there was a noticeable slant to the top of our sitting-room door frame, and that the door had been made to fit. The house was a terrace, 1890 approx. I asked my mother, and she said two words 'jerry built'. The first time I heard that expression.

[EDIT] I don't know that it was confined to, or even more used in, the former Avon area, I just haven't any knowledge of elsewhere (except London as I mentioned above)

Fair point, although it has been a tremendous failure of urban planning.

Didn't the last effort ('Supertram') fail in 2004 after S Glos threw its toys out of the pram because it couldn't have a link to Cribbs Causeway (which would have added £100M to the cost and 2 years to the completion time ?)

Wouldn't surprise me

 

[zwk500]

It does need DART style frequency on the core to take enough people off the roads initially.

DART is essentially an X-Shaped metro with a clear city centre core, which doesn't apply to the Bristol area heavy rail network. Bristol's network is also more complicated in structure than everything feeding into a single core area.

I think I've talked about this before on here, but I'd go for an early network of 30 min frequency on 4 corridors.

Corridor A - Thornbury to Weston-super-Mare via Yate and Bedminster.
Corridor B - Severn Beach to Swindon via Bath - would probably need a low speed curve west of Bath Road and south of Temple Meads to avoid a reversal there (e.g. southbound services coming from Lawrence Hill would head round the curve past St Philip's Marsh depot first, and use the new curve to enter Temple Meads - unless you wanted to dodge TM completely and interchange at Lawrence Hill/a Brislington station).

Corridor C - Henbury loop to Westbury via Bath (same Temple Meads based curve issue here, but either solution is potentially viable, or a fancy underground Temple Meads station further down the line).

Corridor D - Newport to Portishead via Filton - probably the simplest one to implement.

Relaying Bristol West jn to allow parallel moves solves most of your issues the new curve is trying to do. I'd personally leave Thornbury/Yate to Bristol as a half-hourly commuter terminating at Temple Meads. Thornbury and Swindon are commuter service, not Metro. Personally I think the best way to serve Swindon to Bristol is to offer a Swindon-Cardiff EMU stopper, you've already got the Intercity service..

Bristol on its proper boundaries, sure.
The City area should include large chunks of the current South Gloucs unitary and parts of the North Somerset unitary north of the A369 + Portbury docks).

Agree, but here we are. I was talking about the effective city area, rather than arbitrary political boundaries in any event.

 

[AlastairFraser]

DART is essentially an X-Shaped metro with a clear city centre core, which doesn't apply to the Bristol area heavy rail network. Bristol's network is also more complicated in structure than everything feeding into a single core area.

It is more complicated, but what I meant to emulate was the DART-style frequency and rolling stock perhaps. Electrification on these sections with even lightweight OHLE only suitable for 75mph on most of my proposed Bristol DART network wouldn't impact other services heavily, and would make journey times much better between stops as a result of the increased acceleration.

Relaying Bristol West jn to allow parallel moves solves most of your issues the new curve is trying to do. I'd personally leave Thornbury/Yate to Bristol as a half-hourly commuter terminating at Temple Meads. Thornbury and Swindon are commuter service, not Metro. Personally I think the best way to serve Swindon to Bristol is to offer a Swindon-Cardiff EMU stopper, you've already got the Intercity service..

Fair point about the junctions.

Half hourly commuter services terminating in Temple Meads is a poor idea for several reasons

1) you lose capacity in Temple Meads and you hamper cross city connectivity.
2) it would still likely be operated by GWR with DMUs, which would be environmentally unfriendly and less competitive with other transport modes, compared to an electrified Heavy Rail Metro system (I don't mean any type of segregated Tube-style Metro when I talk about that kind of operation.)

3) The intention of a Severn Beach to Swindon is more to serve intermediate stations rather than anyone making the full journey. There would still be intercity and regional connections between places like Westbury and Bristol, or Bristol/Swindon and Cardiff. These services would supplement them.

It is clear that some form of infrequent DMU operated regional commuter service is not going to get enough people out of their cars when it comes to the Bristol metropolitan area, you'd need to see a real drastic change to properly entice suburban drivers out of their cars.

Agree, but here we are. I was talking about the effective city area, rather than arbitrary political boundaries in any event.

True, let's hope WECA's relatively recent formation can ensure that boundaries affect the distribution of funding less

 

[zwk500]

Half hourly commuter services terminating in Temple Meads is a poor idea for several reasons

1) you lose capacity in Temple Meads

With more frequent turnrounds you'd be able to interwork units or better utilise them to potentially be occupying the platforms for less overall. I'd also build bay platforms behind Platform 1 to assist with this, and possible split 3 & 4 into a cut-out bay as at Clapham Junction Platform 1 & 2.

and you hamper cross city connectivity.

I get the existing Servern beach line service regularly. The number of people staying on at Temple Mills in either direction is in the fractions of a percent of the total train loading. For stations out to Yate and Swindon offering a regular connecting into the 4tph local core service is absolutely fine for the local demand.
You want to concentrate cross city services on connections between places like Bedminster and Filton Abbey Wood. Anybody from south Bristol to Clifton Down is as likely to get the bus or cycle as they are the train because the railway does a ruddy great loop out and calls at 4 intermediate stations between TM and Clifton Down. Like it or not Bristol's heavy rail is awkward to serve the optimum destinations (it's one reason why I believe a light rail will do very well - cross-city journeys via a tram through the city centre will be quicker than using heavy rail measuring door-to-door times).

2) it would still likely be operated by GWR with DMUs, which would be environmentally unfriendly and less competitive with other transport modes, compared to an electrified Heavy Rail Metro system (I don't mean any type of segregated Tube-style Metro when I talk about that kind of operation.)

If you're doing Bristol metro electrification (which these ideas are predicated on), it won't be DMUs at all. This idea presupposed at a minimum Chippenham-bath-Bristol TM- Bristol Parkway is electrified.

3) The intention of a Severn Beach to Swindon is more to serve intermediate stations rather than anyone making the full journey. There would still be intercity and regional connections between places like Westbury and Bristol, or Bristol/Swindon and Cardiff. These services would supplement them.

There is a reasonable flow from all parts of Bristol to Bath, but not beyond. The flows from outside Bristol would not be going beyond Clifton Down. Reversing services across Bristol TM from the Reliefs to the Bath Lines requires crossing every track, which is not going to do wonders for the capacity.

It is clear that some form of infrequent DMU operated regional commuter service is not going to get enough people out of their cars when it comes to the Bristol metropolitan area, you'd need to see a real drastic change to properly entice suburban drivers out of their cars.

30-minute interval EMU is what I was proposing, and that's for service out far beyond the Bristol metropolitan area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2025 ==

It is more complicated, but what I meant to emulate was the DART-style frequency and rolling stock perhaps. Electrification on these sections with even lightweight OHLE only suitable for 75mph on most of my proposed Bristol DART network wouldn't impact other services heavily, and would make journey times much better between stops as a result of the increased acceleration.

Worth pointing out the DART frequencies absolutely hammer the outlying commuter pattern and long-distance journey times. Granted Bristol has more tracks than Dublin, but it's worth considering the trade-offs of the DART.

Also I'd not be going for 1.5KV DC overhead OLE for Bristol, it should be 25KV AC on mainlines and 750v Trams.

 

[AlastairFraser]

With more frequent turnrounds you'd be able to interwork units or better utilise them to potentially be occupying the platforms for less overall. I'd also build bay platforms behind Platform 1 to assist with this, and possible split 3 & 4 into a cut-out bay as at Clapham Junction Platform 1 & 2.

However, through services avoid the need for many terminating platforms at great expense.

I get the existing Servern beach line service regularly. The number of people staying on at Temple Mills in either direction is in the fractions of a percent of the total train loading. For stations out to Yate and Swindon offering a regular connecting into the 4tph local core service is absolutely fine for the local demand.
You want to concentrate cross city services on connections between places like Bedminster and Filton Abbey Wood. Anybody from south Bristol to Clifton Down is as likely to get the bus or cycle as they are the train because the railway does a ruddy great loop out and calls at 4 intermediate stations between TM and Clifton Down. Like it or not Bristol's heavy rail is awkward to serve the optimum destinations (it's one reason why I believe a light rail will do very well - cross-city journeys via a tram through the city centre will be quicker than using heavy rail measuring door-to-door times).

I agree that people don't typically travel cross-city on the lines that I propose, or that heavy rail is ideal for Bristol, but my proposed system would be a great start and would help build a business case for a Bristol light rail/tram network.

If you're doing Bristol metro electrification (which these ideas are predicated on), it won't be DMUs at all. This idea presupposed at a minimum Chippenham-bath-Bristol TM- Bristol Parkway is electrified.

Fair enough

There is a reasonable flow from all parts of Bristol to Bath, but not beyond. The flows from outside Bristol would not be going beyond Clifton Down. Reversing services across Bristol TM from the Reliefs to the Bath Lines requires crossing every track, which is not going to do wonders for the capacity.

That's why I proposed that east facing chord towards St Philip's Marsh, to avoid unnecessary reversal.

30-minute interval EMU is what I was proposing, and that's for service out far beyond the Bristol metropolitan area.

Sounds good initially, but it needs to overlap with other services in the core to provide a higher frequency.

Worth pointing out the DART frequencies absolutely hammer the outlying commuter pattern and long-distance journey times. Granted Bristol has more tracks than Dublin, but it's worth considering the trade-offs of the DART.

Well, exactly, the wider Avon area has better infrastructure, so at 30 min per route frequency/15 min combined on some sections, it won't be too much of a capacity burden.

Also I'd not be going for 1.5KV DC overhead OLE for Bristol, it should be 25KV AC on mainlines and 750v Trams.

Oh sure, 25kv is the only real option for new OHLE in the UK these days. It's more the style and principles of operation that I wanted a Bristol plan to emulate.

 

[Christian Schm]

TfW‘s plans for 5 new stations on the SWML also propose additional stopping services between Cardiff and Bristol (hourly or half-hourly according to the then consultation), those are the services that could stop there.

Severnnet have recently started to talk to stakeholders about improved connections of (English) Severnside area and South Wales, and it was suggested there that realistically the only seriously good public transport option is bus-rail integration at Pilning.

So both TfW and WECA are aware of it, but I‘m not sure if any concrete work is currently being done to progress is - I guess asking Severnnet or WECA would provide an answer…

 

[lachlan]

TfW‘s plans for 5 new stations on the SWML also propose additional stopping services between Cardiff and Bristol (hourly or half-hourly according to the then consultation), those are the services that could stop there.

Severnnet have recently started to talk to stakeholders about improved connections of (English) Severnside area and South Wales, and it was suggested there that realistically the only seriously good public transport option is bus-rail integration at Pilning.

So both TfW and WECA are aware of it, but I‘m not sure if any concrete work is currently being done to progress is - I guess asking Severnnet or WECA would provide an answer…

While better bus-rail integration is always good, I'm struggling to see what services you could realistically run via Pilning without a resiting of the station or major changes to the roads. It's not really on the way to anywhere that I can see.

Do you know what they had in mind?

 

[AlastairFraser]

While better bus-rail integration is always good, I'm struggling to see what services you could realistically run via Pilning without a resiting of the station or major changes to the roads. It's not really on the way to anywhere that I can see.

Do you know what they had in mind?

If you look on Google Maps Satellite view at the general area, there's an unconnected M49 Junction in the Avonmouth area (long drawn out farce). Only about 0.1 miles of new road required (some half-constructed) on the western side of the roundabout, and there's an eastern arm branching off the roundabout for a potential link road.
Yes, it doesn't strictly fit your criteria of a route since it hasn't been built yet, but that link road would likely head to the B4055, near the turning for Pilning station.
The Avonmouth industrial estates are a massive employer, so a bus connecting Severn Beach station and Pilning via the Industrial estates would make a lot of sense.

 

[Christian Schm]

yep, it would have to be a new service, from the station, either via Severn Beach or a new connection to the new A49 junction, into the industrial estate probably as far down as Avonmouth.