A few newb questions about train fares

[phil35]

Hi, first post

I've always wondered about a few things regarding train fares, and I've tried searching on here for the answers to these questions, but I couldn't find anything. Apologies if they are answered somewhere.

First of all, from what I can tell from a couple of posts I have read, the fares between different points are set by different train companies. Can anyone shed anyone shed any more light on this? For example, if a journey from A to B stops at C along the way, can one company set the price for A to B and B to C, and another company set the price for the entire journey for A to C? This seems a little strange.

Also, how do the different train companies know which train you boarded and work out how which company should get the money? For example, if I buy a ticket on the day at Leeds station for a single to York, I give my money to the Northern Rail ticket office, but I could board not only a NR service, but also a FTPE, XC or EC. Surely the train company I travelled with should get my money, not Northern?

And similarly when booking online, I can use the East Coast website (for example) to buy a ticket for any train company in the country. I assume East Coast wont actually get the money from this though if its not an East Coast service? Any explanation would be appreciated.

Finally, when booking online I usually check lots of different sites that sell tickets to see if any of them sell the same ticket for a different price (Eg East Coast, Trainline etc). With the exception of website specific offers (eg EC 10% online discount on EC services) is there any point in looking to see if the (standard or advance) fares will differ between sites? AFAIK I don't think I've ever seen a difference.

Thanks for any replies!

 

[Deerfold]

Hi, first post

I've always wondered about a few things regarding train fares, and I've tried searching on here for the answers to these questions, but I couldn't find anything. Apologies if they are answered somewhere.

Welcome.

First of all, from what I can tell from a couple of posts I have read, the fares between different points are set by different train companies. Can anyone shed anyone shed any more light on this? For example, if a journey from A to B stops at C along the way, can one company set the price for A to B and B to C, and another company set the price for the entire journey for A to C? This seems a little strange.

Yes they can - and yes it is strange - and leads to all sorts of anomalies where it *can* be cheaper to buy mutiple tickets for one journey or for your tickets to include more travel than you actually do. My last but one train journey used both of these facts to be cheaper.

Also, how do the different train companies know which train you boarded and work out how which company should get the money? For example, if I buy a ticket on the day at Leeds station for a single to York, I give my money to the Northern Rail ticket office, but I could board not only a NR service, but also a FTPE, XC or EC. Surely the train company I travelled with should get my money, not Northern?

There is a system called ORCATS which determines who gets what share of fares. The exact details are confidential but it seems it gives a higher share to operators who carry more seats but weights towards faster journey times and direct services.

And similarly when booking online, I can use the East Coast website (for example) to buy a ticket for any train company in the country. I assume East Coast wont actually get the money from this though if its not an East Coast service? Any explanation would be appreciated.

East Coast will get a commission for selling the ticket as would a ticket office or travel agent.

Finally, when booking online I usually check lots of different sites that sell tickets to see if any of them sell the same ticket for a different price (Eg East Coast, Trainline etc). With the exception of website specific offers (eg EC 10% online discount on EC services) is there any point in looking to see if the (standard or advance) fares will differ between sites? AFAIK I don't think I've ever seen a difference.

The base prices of tickets (before the special offers) should all be the same. Sometimes some sites are easier to persuade to give advance tickets for a particular routeing.

Thanks for any replies!

No worries.

 

[phil35]

Ah I see, that's cleared a few things up for me thanks. How the TOCs worked out who should get the money really bugged me, I guess this ORCATS thing answers that for me nicely!

 

[ainsworth74]

With the exception of website specific offers (eg EC 10% online discount on EC services) is there any point in looking to see if the (standard or advance) fares will differ between sites? AFAIK I don't think I've ever seen a difference.

No there isn't any reason to check different website as the ticket prices should be the same unless (as you've noticed) there is a special offer on a specific website.

 

[MikeWh]

I think it unlikely that one company would set fares for A-B and B-C while another company sets fares for A-C (via B). I could be wrong though as the system is incredibly complex. What is more likely is that two different companies set A-B and B-C and one of them also sets A-C (or possibly a third company).

Where more than one company provides services between two points there is a system called ORCATS which divides up the money based upon the likelihood of each person using each service. It's methods are a closely guarded secret, but it's likely that it's a system of swings and roundabouts where most companies end up more-or-less fairly remunerated.

The basic prices for the tickets will be the same on all sites. Some companies (eg EC) do offer discounts on their own services when booked online. Non TOC sites (eg trainline) tend to also charge booking fees and other charges.

 

[Deerfold]

I think it unlikely that one company would set fares for A-B and B-C while another company sets fares for A-C (via B). I could be wrong though as the system is incredibly complex. What is more likely is that two different companies set A-B and B-C and one of them also sets A-C (or possibly a third company).

I think Leeds - South Emsall and South Emsall - Doncaster are both Northern but Leeds - Doncaster is East Coast.
And there will be many more like that where a local and long distance operator overlap.

 

[brompton rail]

A journey from Doncaster that continues towards Derby (EMT?) and Birmingham (XC) is always cheaper if you split at Sheffield.

 

[Malderon]

I am also interested in ORCATS. On finding out my season ticket is valid on more routes than I thought it raises some anomalies. I dont really understand the system so I apologise if I am spouting absolute nonsense

My monthly season ticket is subject to a 20% discount due to being a member of EASIT through my employer which have negotiated a deal for 20% discount on all Southern services.

However - "Route - Southern" or something of that kind is not printed on my ticket, thus although I'm not sure I would guess that my ticket would be accepted on a FCC train from East Croydon - Brighton (which is a valid route) however FCC had nothing to do with agreeing the discount which is Southern specific.

I expect its a small thing seeing as how number of people travelling on my ticket via Brighton will be small (to go via Arun Valley is much faster), and I expect FCC are relatively small proportion of East Croydon to Brighton anyway when considering number of seats, speed, frequency etc compared to Southern. So I would guess FCC share of my ticket is very small if any (small proportion using route and small proportion of services along that route).

I would guess that given my discount my ticket SHOULD be printed "Southern-Only" because if my ticket ran Brighton-ECR->onwards not Chichester-ECR->onwards it would be a very significant factor.

The revenue distribution must be far from perfect compared to actual use where multiple companies are operating the same journey.

 

[janb]

I think it unlikely that one company would set fares for A-B and B-C while another company sets fares for A-C (via B). I could be wrong though as the system is incredibly complex.

Carnforth to Lancaster - Northern
Lancaster to Preston - Northern
Carnforth to Preston - TPE

Or as above plus,
Preston - Wigan NW - Northern
Preston - Warrington BQ - Northern
Wigan NW - Warrington BQ - Northern
=
Lancaster to Warrington BQ - Virgin
and the punchline
Carnforth to Warrington BQ - Arriva Trains Wales

 

[phil35]

How do you guys know which TOC decides the fare for each individual route? If there was a way to find out, it would be easier to find out where you might be able to get a cheap fare by splitting.

 

[Pumbaa]

There is a program called Avantix Traveller, which is a version of the ticket selling software found in ticket offices. It has the purchasing facilities stripped out, but details every available ticket, the restrictions on its use, the price and the relevant information, including which operator is responsible for setting the price.

 

[wibble]

I would guess that given my discount my ticket SHOULD be printed "Southern-Only" because if my ticket ran Brighton-ECR->onwards not Chichester-ECR->onwards it would be a very significant factor.

The revenue distribution must be far from perfect compared to actual use where multiple companies are operating the same journey.

Your discounted ticket will be valid on exactly the same routes and train companies as its undiscounted equivalent. The 20% discount just means that each company will recieve 20% less money from that season ticket. This is no different from Railcard or child discounted tickets.

 

[yorkie]

However - "Route - Southern" or something of that kind is not printed on my ticket, thus although I'm not sure I would guess that my ticket would be accepted on a FCC train from East Croydon - Brighton (which is a valid route) however FCC had nothing to do with agreeing the discount which is Southern specific.

What is printed on the ticket to make you think it may not be accepted?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or
any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....My monthly season ticket is subject to a 20% discount due to being a member of EASIT through my employer which have negotiated a deal for 20% discount on all Southern services....

I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but effectively Southern are paying the 20% for you, but this is fine for them because they probably receive more than 20% of the ticket price from ORCATS.