A few historical questions on the Circle Line.

[Ken H]

Apologies for the extreme pedantry, and being wildly off-topic, but the distinctive stretch of the H&C (the rest is shared with other lines), Paddington to Hammersmith, is not cut and cover but all above ground. Much of it on viaducts.

No worries. you are correct.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Recognising this is complicated, but I think the above is over-simplifying somewhat.

The Thames Tunnel was completed in 1843 for use by pedestrians (also intended for horse-drawn carriages, but they ran out of money before they could built the necessary ramps either end). This built by tunneling horizontally from shafts either end, and was the first tube in the sense that it was first use of the "tunneling shield" Brunel invented that was later used for the deep tube lines. It wasn't of course the first tunnel, as many main line railways had built them by then.

The East London Railway took it over, and built extensions either end by the cut-and-cover techniques used on the Metropolitan and District railways (dig a deep trench, built walls and a roof and restore the ground above). This opened in 1969 but Marc Brunel had no involvement in the project, having died 20 years previously.

Ahem! [re bold bit]

(PS - fascinating thread!)

 

[edwin_m]

Ahem! [re bold bit]

(PS - fascinating thread!)

Duly edited, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[DelW]

Looking at Steam to Silver I would say that it would not be possible to sit under longitudinal seats as it looks as if they had panels set 6” or so back underneath the seat: presumably these covered electrical equipment. I will delve further to see if I can confirm which types were in use, but it might be a case of yes for some and no for others. Do they plan it so that they can catch a specific train or just chance it and grab the first?

I'm not sure whether this applies to full size SSL stock, but certainly on tube stock, the seats at the ends of the cars have to be longitudinal, not because there is equipment underneath but because the tops of the wheels are somewhat higher than the floor level.

 

[Roger1973]

Just a thought, in terms of the storyline, and plot needing two children to be able to hide on an 'inner circle' train of the right era...

Without knowing the detail of the rolling stock in use at the time, but just wondering would it have been feasible for them to hide in a driving cab or guard's compartment in the middle of the train? By the time I remember the Underground, driving cabs in the middle of the train (where the two units joined) needed either a key or a 'break glass' type handle to get into, but would that have been the case in 1941, or would there just have been a polite notice saying no entry, or words to that effect? The Q stock driving car at Covent Garden (flickr photo here - not mine) appears to have a door-knob rather than something needing a key.

And again, on the underground stock I remember (I have a very faint memory of the CO/CP / R stock generation) the guard positions were effectively part of the saloon, but think I've encountered one earlier carriage (in the LT Museum collection?) where the guard position had a hinged door, and seemed more closed off from the rest of the carriage. Would this - along with the effect of wartime / blackout reduced carriage lighting - have offered a hiding place?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just a thought, in terms of the storyline, and plot needing two children to be able to hide on an 'inner circle' train of the right era...

Without knowing the detail of the rolling stock in use at the time, but just wondering would it have been feasible for them to hide in a driving cab or guard's compartment in the middle of the train? By the time I remember the Underground, driving cabs in the middle of the train (where the two units joined) needed either a key or a 'break glass' type handle to get into, but would that have been the case in 1941, or would there just have been a polite notice saying no entry, or words to that effect? The Q stock driving car at Covent Garden (flickr photo here - not mine) appears to have a door-knob rather than something needing a key.

And again, on the underground stock I remember (I have a very faint memory of the CO/CP / R stock generation) the guard positions were effectively part of the saloon, but think I've encountered one earlier carriage (in the LT Museum collection?) where the guard position had a hinged door, and seemed more closed off from the rest of the carriage. Would this - along with the effect of wartime / blackout reduced carriage lighting - have offered a hiding place?

The absolute , definitive experts on such things lie with people like Brian Hardy and Piers Connor - published experts to say the very least , and probably contactable via the London Underground Railway Transport Society - google them for clarification.

WW2 passenger trains on the Underground would have been pretty busy at all times , - none of these 1970 era empty passenger trains.......

 

[AlbertBeale]

Just a thought, in terms of the storyline, and plot needing two children to be able to hide on an 'inner circle' train of the right era...

Without knowing the detail of the rolling stock in use at the time, but just wondering would it have been feasible for them to hide in a driving cab or guard's compartment in the middle of the train? By the time I remember the Underground, driving cabs in the middle of the train (where the two units joined) needed either a key or a 'break glass' type handle to get into, but would that have been the case in 1941, or would there just have been a polite notice saying no entry, or words to that effect? The Q stock driving car at Covent Garden (flickr photo here - not mine) appears to have a door-knob rather than something needing a key.

And again, on the underground stock I remember (I have a very faint memory of the CO/CP / R stock generation) the guard positions were effectively part of the saloon, but think I've encountered one earlier carriage (in the LT Museum collection?) where the guard position had a hinged door, and seemed more closed off from the rest of the carriage. Would this - along with the effect of wartime / blackout reduced carriage lighting - have offered a hiding place?

On tube stock, post-WW2 (and - I think - on SS stock too) the guard would operate from the leading door of the rear carriage; there were buttons to push for opening and closing the doors, and for signalling the driver it was OK to move off; a simple metal bar would be swung up across the aisle to separate the guard's area from the rest of the carriage.

 

[Ex LT]

Some below-ground parts of the disused British Museum station - whatever they were in terms of bomb shelters in WW2 - remained in the hands of the government afterwards; during the Cold War they were (a minor) one of the government bunkers in which to tuck troops etc away ready to emerge into what if anything would be left after a nuclear attack on London. (It wasn't one of London's 5 main Borough Group Controls [which were the approximate organisational equivalent of the Sub-Regional Controls in parts of the country where the RSG {Regional Seat of Government} covered a much larger geographical area than did the RSG covering London {the London RSG was actually in Essex - probably quite sensible given what state London would have been in in that situation}].) For those interested, there's more on this in a book (one chapter of which I wrote) published about 40 years ago called War and Order: Researching State Structures, edited by Celina Bledowska.

Until the block concerned (which is on the north side of High Holborn right where it meets New Oxford Street) was rebuilt - in the 1980s or soon after - there were signs remaining of its one-time use (albeit for little more than 30 years, until it was replaced with a - nearby - new station, to interchange with the Piccadilly Line at Holborn, in 1933) as a tube station. During some at least of that period up to the rebuilding, there was a little entrance door into the side of the building (from a pedestrian path, on the western side of the building, linking High Holborn to Barter Street), providing access to the underground areas without the need to go via the business now using the above-ground part of the premises. There was a desk just inside that door where officials entering and leaving the government "bunker" could be logged in and out.

The book War and Order: Researching State Structures you wrote a chapter for I have a copy a very good read full of information although I'm sure the locations have changed somewhat. I'll send you a PM.

 

[Taunton]

Hand operated doors? Wow, I really didn’t expect that. I suppose I was looking at the 1938 deep level stock and assuming (wrongly by the looks of things) that the trains would be on a par with them.

I think the first air doors on the sub-surface lines were the O/P stock, around 1938. It was hand-sliding doors on everything built before, and although some were later converted, others weren't. They did share almost all their tracks with other lines, as today, and the last Metropolitan trains with slam doors on the north side didn't go until 1962. A Wikipedia page here describes these Circle trains, and their red/cream livery, like some other lines and London buses of the era.

London Underground Circle Stock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The absolute , definitive experts on such things lie with people like Brian Hardy and Piers Connor

Absolutely, and a 'go to' source for me in matters of LU stock at the times I spoke of above - in my early BR days... Don't wish to veer OT from the OP's question(s), but just for a brief bit of trivia the following 3 car COP sets are just three of a number noted at Wimbledon District Line in late 77/early 78 still with ex Q38 trailers;

54201/013149/53267.
54270/013159/53227.
54021/013172/53239.

There were others, but one's records leave a lot to be desired nearly half a century later!

 

[The exile]

If you’re struggling to squeeze the kids in somewhere, it’s worth remembering that your average 13 year old would have been smaller than their (great) grandchildren - if they are then “small for their age”, a space that’ll only fit modern (non obese) 10 year olds would probably do.

 

[thomalex]

I’m curious how they used to get on with hand sliding doors. Was it left up to passengers or did the guard have to jump off and open/close all the doors? Or multiple guards. Were they then locked? It certainly must have taken some time

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’m curious how they used to get on with hand sliding doors. Was it left up to passengers or did the guard have to jump off and open/close all the doors? Or multiple guards. Were they then locked? It certainly must have taken some time

Shall we say there was a bit more trust in those days. Hot weather , had trains running twixt stations with doors cracked open to get some air in.

Not so long ago - the Berlin S-Bahn older stock had doors closed on departure , but you could easily open then legally between stations to get some air in (or other things of a late evening which I am sure people can imagine what for..)

 

[urbophile]

Shall we say there was a bit more trust in those days. Hot weather , had trains running twixt stations with doors cracked open to get some air in.

Not so much cracked as wide open, as my memory of a terrifying childhood experience tells me.

 

[MP33]

During the War, even when the stations were being used as Air Raid Shelters. A limited service still ran. My Father, being in an reserved occupation used it. The few passengers were members of the Emergency Services, Air Raid Wardens and the like. On the platforms there were lines drawn adjacent to some of the doors, to be kept clear for the few passengers.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

On tube stock, post-WW2 (and - I think - on SS stock too) the guard would operate from the leading door of the rear carriage; there were buttons to push for opening and closing the doors, and for signalling the driver it was OK to move off; a simple metal bar would be swung up across the aisle to separate the guard's area from the rest of the carriage.

Yes that is my recollection of traveling to school in the 60s on the Piccadilly and district lines

 

[contrex]

Shall we say there was a bit more trust in those days. Hot weather , had trains running twixt stations with doors cracked open to get some air in.

Not so long ago - the Berlin S-Bahn older stock had doors closed on departure , but you could easily open then legally between stations to get some air in (or other things of a late evening which I am sure people can imagine what for..)

On loco hauled SNCF RIB stock between Ventimiglia and Nice I used to be horrified in the 1990s to see teenagers sitting on the floor and propping the doors open with their outstretched legs. The trains were rammed and I felt it wouldn't take much for someone to fall out with inevitably fatal results.

 

[Roger1973]

On tube stock, post-WW2 (and - I think - on SS stock too) the guard would operate from the leading door of the rear carriage; there were buttons to push for opening and closing the doors, and for signalling the driver it was OK to move off; a simple metal bar would be swung up across the aisle to separate the guard's area from the rest of the carriage.

Yes - that's the arrangement I remember on the 1938, 1959, 1962 and 1972 tube stock and A stock before they were withdrawn / converted for OPO, and (just) remember on the CO/CP and R stock that were still on the district line until about 1981. Not all guards would bother with the metal bar at off peak times at least, possibly as this made it easier for them to go and sit in a passenger seat between stations. The single door opened with the rest of the passenger doors in the front carriage / any intermediate driving carriages and the area was passenger circulating / standing space the same as the end of any trailer car.

From memory, the guard worked from the back cab on the C and D stock and on the 1973 tube stock, though - and I think on the 1983 stock. And I think I've read that the variety of O or P stock that did the Circle / Hammersmith and City line (before my time) was worked from the back cab.

The arrangement I was thinking of (which I don't remember in service of course, but fairly sure the LT Museum has something similar if not this exact type) is along the lines of this photo (Flickr, not mine) where the door at the inner end of the driving car was hinged, opening inwards, so presume it was not used by passengers if the guard wasn't in that carriage. I'm not sure what the interior layout was, but to go back to the original question, if this style of carriage was used on the 'inner circle' of the 1940s, it would have provided a possible hiding place in the front carriage or in the middle of the train.

 

[Dstock7080]

From memory, the guard worked from the back cab on the C and D stock and on the 1973 tube stock, though - and I think on the 1983 stock. And I think I've read that the variety of O or P stock that did the Circle / Hammersmith and City line (before my time) was worked from the back cab.

1983 Stock did have cab controls.
O Stock and the converted CO Stock had the Guard controls in the cabs. These were regular replacements for C Stock on the Edgware Road service until withdrawal in 1981, which were a great alternative!

 

[Snow1964]

On tube stock, post-WW2 (and - I think - on SS stock too) the guard would operate from the leading door of the rear carriage; there were buttons to push for opening and closing the doors, and for signalling the driver it was OK to move off; a simple metal bar would be swung up across the aisle to separate the guard's area from the rest of the carriage.

Yes I remember this on Central line about 1990, had to visit a client for few weeks in Northolt, and usually around Acton, once train was quiet, guard would drop the bar and sit between stops.

When the 9car trains were introduced on Northern line just before WW2 the guard used front of car 7, so wasn't in a tunnel at the non extended stations. Can't find the article now, but there were apparently extra door controls on 1938 stock, to manually switch out extra doors (an early form of selective door opening). The 9car scheme was dropped at beginning of the war and only remnant is the 9car platforms on the Northern heights extension works

 

[Taunton]

From memory, the guard worked from the back cab on the C and D stock and on the 1973 tube stock, though - and I think on the 1983 stock. And I think I've read that the variety of O or P stock that did the Circle / Hammersmith and City line (before my time) was worked from the back cab.

One of the differences between O and P (there were several) was that O guards were in the rear cab, and P guards had the bar across the saloon. This mirrored the different arrangements previously in use on the different lines they were deployed on. They were later made consistent. Someone with far more knowledge than me will be along soon with the detail.

As we were originally meant to be discussing the Circle here, these trains, as their predecessors, were only 5-car trains there until around 1960, when they had a car added in a general reshuffle.

Regarding open doors when going along, these seem far more acceptable in a good many other countries, without issue. Likewise those who did not grow up with UK buses with open rear platforms somehow envisage a huge danger, with all the passengers falling out at every bend. They should try the San Francisco cablecars in that notoriously litigious country the USA, with passengers hanging on the outside while negotiating corners at speed ...

 

[AlbertBeale]

One of the differences between O and P (there were several) was that O guards were in the rear cab, and P guards had the bar across the saloon. This mirrored the different arrangements previously in use on the different lines they were deployed on. They were later made consistent. Someone with far more knowledge than me will be along soon with the detail.

As we were originally meant to be discussing the Circle here, these trains, as their predecessors, were only 5-car trains there until around 1960, when they had a car added in a general reshuffle.

Regarding open doors when going along, these seem far more acceptable in a good many other countries, without issue. Likewise those who did not grow up with UK buses with open rear platforms somehow envisage a huge danger, with all the passengers falling out at every bend. They should try the San Francisco cablecars in that notoriously litigious country the USA, with passengers hanging on the outside while negotiating corners at speed ...

Indeed - I made a long slow all-day journey Barcelona-Madrid some decades ago, on a hot summer day, with the water long since having run out on the train. The doors at the end of the carriages were kept/left/forced (not sure which now) open for much of the journey, with people hanging on to something or other and leaning out in the air.