A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[Bletchleyite]

It would be great if the CLC was electrified and then meaningful use of EMUs was made between Liverpool and Manchester to bring major capacity benefits. The problem then is that it does not help the Liverpool to Norwich itself.

To be honest, I think cutting that back to Piccadilly main trainshed would be acceptable "collateral damage" to achieve a 4tph* 6-car EMU service between Liverpool and Castlefield on the CLC. It'd be annoying to some people, but there's a very significant turnover of passengers at Manchester, the vast majority aren't travelling beyond there. The demand for Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham doesn't appear to be quite as large as Liverpool to north TPE destinations.

* Half semifast either side of Warrington so the end to end time is acceptable, giving the bigger stations 4tph and the smaller ones 2.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest, I think cutting that back to Piccadilly main trainshed would be acceptable "collateral damage" to achieve a 4tph* 6-car EMU service between Liverpool and Castlefield on the CLC. It'd be annoying to some people, but there's a very significant turnover of passengers at Manchester, the vast majority aren't travelling beyond there. The demand for Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham doesn't appear to be quite as large as Liverpool to north TPE destinations.

* Half semifast either side of Warrington so the end to end time is acceptable, giving the bigger stations 4tph and the smaller ones 2.

I disagree. I think that Liverpool needs decent inter-regional connections and this is the only one its got to the East Midlands and beyond.

 

[dosxuk]

The demand for Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham doesn't appear to be quite as large as Liverpool to north TPE destinations.

Which is why they've recently doubled the frequency?

 

[frodshamfella]

I disagree. I think that Liverpool needs decent inter-regional connections and this is the only one its got to the East Midlands and beyond.

Quite, the city is not as well connected as it ought to be, its particularly busy with tourists at the weekend and that should be catered for much better than now.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite, the city is not as well connected as it ought to be, its particularly busy with tourists at the weekend and that should be catered for much better than now.

Absolutely !

 

[frodshamfella]

Then why question where I posted about the good things the train passes outside the LCR? Things which are the absolute opposite of broken.

As @Bletchleyite and I have highlighted there have been many meaningful improvements across the North, albeit that many focus on Manchester as the defacto Northern hub city.

Going to discussions about economic hubs and the comparative geographies the railways were built to, versus those which dominate in a lower transport cost age is very interesting but would take us far off topic.

Im not questioning it, but the article is about rail travel in the north and not buildings in the north.

 

[londonmidland]

The demand for Liverpool-Sheffield/Nottingham doesn't appear to be quite as large as Liverpool to north TPE destinations.

Regular full and standing EMR services off Lime Street would disagree with this comment. A four car train, with it sometimes only being 2 car at a 1tph basis, serving several large cities, really isn’t adequate.

Manchester Piccadilly sees a lot of people alighting, but equally a lot of people are boarding too. Both east and west services are equally busy here, with them often being full and standing.

 

[Topological]

Im not questioning it, but the article is about rail travel in the north and not buildings in the north.

The title of the article is "journey through broken Britain", so things trackside, and outside of the LCR, which are not broken seem very relevant really.

Anyway, the point is that it is a bad headline, rather than a bad article. It would just be good if everything did not have to come with an exaggerated headline or political point scoring.

 

[nw1]

The route used to reliably turn out four carriage 158's for many years with occasional substitutions. Infact for a long time, EMT/R was the most reliable way of getting a seat between Manchester and Sheffield. Started going fown the pan some time before the Pandemic as I recall.

As with the rest of the railway, TOC being strong-armed into getting rid of too much rolling stock without adequate replacements.

This. IMV, blame the government, not the TOCs.

If the Liverpool Echo is using terms such as "broken Britain", it helps publicise the problems and direct blame where it's due. Remember David Cameron used the same phrase. Sauce for the goose and all that...

This Government demanding that XC get rid of its HSTs without replacement is one of the most obvious examples of the problem. They are clearly more interested in cutting public spending than funding a railway to an adequate and acceptable threshold standard (as in, "provide enough seats to match demand").

 

[Topological]

Regular full and standing EMR services off Lime Street would disagree with this comment. A four car train, with it sometimes only being 2 car at a 1tph basis, serving several large cities, really isn’t adequate.

Manchester Piccadilly sees a lot of people alighting, but equally a lot of people are boarding too. Both east and west services are equally busy here, with them often being full and standing.

Surely the point there is that people going from Liverpool to Manchester would be catered for by any Liverpool to Manchester train and the large numbers alighting mean the inconvenience of the severing of direct connections would not be too great.

I often wonder whether the Liverpool to Nottingham connection is better served via Crewe and Stoke as Liverpool and Stoke are not connected either. There is also the later possibility to send the fast train via Victoria and the Chat Moss to allow the CLC to serve as a longer stopping service (All off topic)

The problem (if there is one) with the Liverpool to Norwich is that it takes in so many different markets, is slowed to do so and becomes highly reliant on having enough stock and crew available.

 

[nw1]

That the rail industry get its act together and provide an acceptable level of service on this important route?

The rail industry is not to blame, the Government is, in my view (see above).

 

[yorksrob]

The rail industry is not to blame, the Government is, in my view (see above).

Indeed. Sadly the rail industry isn't in much of a position to get its act together. This Government is 100% to blame.

 

[Deepgreen]

A lot of the comments on that article seem to be referring to the journalist's political inclinations and saying to get over it etc - 2 cars is clearly not enough but it's not news really. I eagerly await Labour's immediate solution to this line's overcrowding...

Sadly, because the privatisation of the railways is so expensively embedded there is no immediate solution to most of the woes. Reversing the vast damage done by this utterly fatuous policy will take a very long time, and so much opportunity for real progress will have been lost in the meantime.

 

[Djgr]

Absolutely !

The connectivity into Liverpool is a disgrace and has been since privatisation, given that it is one of the key leisure destinations in the country:

e.g. 5 of the top 40 UK museums by visitor numbers

 

[yorksrob]

The connectivity into Liverpool is a disgrace and has been since privatisation, given that it is one of the key leisure destinations in the country:

e.g. 5 of the top 40 UK museums by visitor numbers

Even as a major core city, Liverpool should justify decent services across the country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. I think that Liverpool needs decent inter-regional connections and this is the only one its got to the East Midlands and beyond.

Then you can't have a frequent CLC service. It's either-or, a choice has to be made. Four-tracking it is not financially viable.

 

[yorksrob]

Then you can't have a frequent CLC service. It's either-or, a choice has to be made. Four-tracking it is not financially viable.

Nonsense, you don't need four tracking the whole thing. Even a couple of loops will do.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do you even want long distance services to run on the CLC when you have an electrified route via Chat Moss?

The CLC should concentrate on serving load centres on the CLC, not competing with the superior Chat Moss route, which is still a long way from its ultimate capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Why do you even want long distance services to run on the CLC when you have an electrified route via Chat Moss?

The CLC should concentrate on serving load centres on the CLC, not competing with the superior Chat Moss route, which is still a long way from its ultimate capacity.

Isn't Chat Moss a double track route with it's own sweep of local stations ? Try and push everything down there and you'll just end up degrading their services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't Chat Moss a double track route with it's own sweep of local stations ? Try and push everything down there and you'll just end up degrading their services.

A fair length of the inner part of Chat Moss has been 4-tracked to allow for this, as most of the local stations are grouped on the Liverpool side, unlike the CLC where they're the whole way along.

The problem with loops for the CLC is that the services to Sheffield are woeful in punctuality terms and always have been, they interact with too much. Thus, everything just ends up in a mess, either you have to can the stoppers or they end up in front of the fasts. It's been thus ever since the main Liverpool-Manchester service was transferred onto that route in the early 90s.

 

[Djgr]

Even as a major core city, Liverpool should justify decent services across the country.

It all ties up with an absolute perception within Liverpool City Region that Britain is completely broken and any noise from the "government" about "levelling up" is cynical and totally false nonsense. Even if the desire was truly there, Westminster lacks the competence to do, well absolutely anything really.

It is worth noting that in the May 2023 Liverpool City local elections the share of the vote for the Conservatives was 1.7% and no I haven't put the decimal point in the wrong place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It all ties up with an absolute perception within Liverpool City Region that Britain is completely broken and any noise from the "government" about "levelling up" is cynical and totally false nonsense. Even if the desire was truly there, Westminster lacks the competence to do, well absolutely anything really.

It's partly that, and partly unrealistic Scouse moaning about why their service isn't the same as Manchester when their city is out on a peninsula with a catchment hinterland for rail services of about 10 mile radius, whereas Manchester is a key connectional node for the whole North West.

Also don't forget Merseyrail. It's a real subject of envy compared to those enviously also yellow-painted trams.

(If Scousers agreed to work more with Manchester, the North West could do some great things as a whole - but it would involve acceptance that Liverpool is less important whether they like it or not, and that'll never happen - you don't see the same thing in Coventry or Wolves about Brum, or in Sheffield about Leeds and so the whole West Midlands or West Yorkshire work far better as one)

 

[yorksrob]

A fair length of the inner part of Chat Moss has been 4-tracked to allow for this, as most of the local stations are grouped on the Liverpool side, unlike the CLC where they're the whole way along.

The problem with loops for the CLC is that the services to Sheffield are woeful in punctuality terms and always have been, they interact with too much. Thus, everything just ends up in a mess, either you have to can the stoppers or they end up in front of the fasts. It's been thus ever since the main Liverpool-Manchester service was transferred onto that route in the early 90s.

Is that enough for another set of fast trains ?

CLC does need a bit of work to make it work better, but Warrington needs interregional connections as well.

It all ties up with an absolute perception within Liverpool City Region that Britain is completely broken and any noise from the "government" about "levelling up" is cynical and totally false nonsense. Even if the desire was truly there, Westminster lacks the competence to do, well absolutely anything really.

It is worth noting that in the May 2023 Liverpool City local elections the share of the vote for the Conservatives was 1.7% and no I haven't put the decimal point in the wrong place.

It doesn't surprise me. Proper devolution within England is needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CLC does need a bit of work to make it work better, but Warrington needs interregional connections as well.

It has them at Bank Quay.

Of course Northern Powerhouse Rail on the Fiddlers Ferry line is the real fix.

 

[yorksrob]

It has them at Bank Quay.

Of course Northern Powerhouse Rail on the Fiddlers Ferry line is the real fix.

We're trying to get a quart out of a pint pot. The CLC needs a bit of investment (not four tracking the whole thing by any means) to make it run better.

The Kent electrification scheme had to sort out a lot of mixed traffic double track. They went for loops and short sections of multiple track. CLC needs something similar.

 

[frodshamfella]

Surely one of the problem with the CLC route and log distance services was the reopening of the Ordsall Chord. So now you have services from North of Manchester trying to get along the already busy 2 track section before Piccadilly. However this is off topic as to why train travel across the north is generally poor. We on here like rail travel so put up with it, I have to say trying to convince family and friends to take a train, is not well received because of the reality.

 

[zwk500]

Nonsense, you don't need four tracking the whole thing. Even a couple of loops will do.

'Even a couple of loops' is neither cheap nor easy. You'd need 4-tracking between at least 2 stations, meaning rebuilding 2 stations, to allow the slow trains to pull off clear of a fast and then rejoin without extending local journey times by an unacceptable amount.

Surely one of the problem with the CLC route and log distance services was the reopening of the Ordsall Chord. So now you have services from North of Manchester trying to get along the already busy 2 track section before Piccadilly. However this is off topic as to why train travel across the north is generally poor. We on here like rail travel so put up with it, I have to say trying to convince family and friends to take a train, is not well received because of the reality.

Partly History - different geographic regions of competing railway companies resulted in sub-optimal track alignments as companies focused on things like coal and London traffic, also from the late 60s through to the mid-80s the car was the clear and obvious choice for interregional travel, and investment in rail services was pointless. Nowadays rail traffic has grown, but the most valuable traffic is still on London radials and as such any lateral traffic that crosses a radial must play second fiddle. For routes like Liverpool-Nottingham that cross several major radial routes this means they get messed about like nobody's business before they reach their destination.

In an ideal world we'd have a flyover at Manchester Piccadilly taking trains from Ashburys over the top and down into a set of 4 platforms for the Castlefield route. However the cost for that would be astronomical and the value wouldn't come close to justifying such an expense.

 

[frodshamfella]

Is it possible to operate Liverpool to Norwich via Derby, would that provide a more reliable service.

 

[yorksrob]

'Even a couple of loops' is neither cheap nor easy. You'd need 4-tracking between at least 2 stations, meaning rebuilding 2 stations, to allow the slow trains to pull off clear of a fast and then rejoin without extending local journey times by an unacceptable amount.

True, but there is clearly a benefit to having more than one route between Manchester and Liverpool for inter-regional services.

There's clearly a benefit to a big town like Warrington having good East west services.

We get a couple of fasts and a couple of stoppers getting by now, imperfectly. It wouldn't take much to get them running more efficiently.

 

[zwk500]

True, but there is clearly a benefit to having more than one route between Manchester and Liverpool for inter-regional services.

Is there? Is it not cleaner for passengers to only need 1 route?

There's clearly a benefit to a big town like Warrington having good East west services.

Ah, but there are many different definitions of 'good'. The key question is:- where do the good folk of Warrington *actually* want to go, not where do these forums think they should want to go. But you'd need LENNON or MOIRA data to know that.
Bear in mind that Warrington BQ offers (or has offered in the past) services to/from both Manchester and Liverpool via Chat Moss as well as the CLC route, and that allows connections in and out of the WCML - quite valuable for traffic from, say, Runcorn or Chester.

We get a couple of fasts and a couple of stoppers getting by now, imperfectly. It wouldn't take much to get them running more efficiently.

Indeed. Having everything running the same stopping pattern would be one way. 'Ormskirking' it would be another. both would require fairly minimal intervention now that Merseyrail have 777s.