A depressingly familiar journey through broken Britain

[Bletchleyite]

Is this a fixed sign or a daily changing code? (i.e. could someone check this literally once and then have the code for significantly discounted parking for any subsequent times they wanted to use the car park and not the train?)

It changes daily.

 

[AndrewE]

The TPE services I use most often are the Scotland/Manchester Airport trains, and in recent years these have gone from 3-car Class 185, via 4-car Class 350 (thanks to electrification in Lancashire) to 5-car Class 397. That is s substantial improvement, although I do agree on the level of cancellations.

Very similar issues in Scotland, which is nothing to do with the evil Tories!

Indeed, but I recall for example electrification in Lancashire, eg Manchester/Blackpool, being talked, or rather dreamed, about in BR days. At least it did finally happen.

but I deliberately typed "trans-Pennine" trains, meaning Northern, EMT and TPE services across the Pennines. The Manchester to Scotland services seem to have been pretty rough when I have been out and about near Carlisle, but yesterday in Liverpool I saw loads of local and longer-distance trains cancelled

 

[physics34]

From the Liverpool Echo:

I can confirm that trains between Sheffield and Manchester are usually full to capacity, or more...

He lost me at 'terrifying climate crisis'.

 

[gallafent]

It changes daily.

Not sure if it does now, but for a long time (years) it stayed the same. I could even type it here from memory but I'll refrain. This was lucky for me when, on more than one occasion, I forgot to pay for parking until I'd got on the train and left the station ...

There seems to be a new system now, though, in which you can buy a ticket (and get a paper receipt) from a machine near the end of platforms 1 & 2, requiring entering the car registration number. I assume there's also still a pay-by-phone option but I haven't done that for a long time!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There seems to be a new system now, though, in which you can buy a ticket (and get a paper receipt) from a machine near the end of platforms 1 & 2, requiring entering the car registration number. I assume there's also still a pay-by-phone option but I haven't done that for a long time!

The display is definitely still there, though.

 

[urbophile]

He lost me at 'terrifying climate crisis'.

Well if you're not terrified you're just not paying attention.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==

Nothing works? Really? There a ton of problems with our public services, but nothing works?! That is extremely blanket negative statement.



I do not vote Tory but I am capable of acknowledging that are some areas where railway have improved in last 13 years. Labour did very little electrification and then tried to take credit for electrification they announced shortly before the 2010 general election but were the work has been done since they left office. If Labour win the general election and complete MML and transpennine electrification they will deserve some credit, despite them being a clear and necessary projects.

The OP article seems to be aimed at a mix of people with genuine gripes, people who don't like / ideologically oppose the current ruling party and people who just need to see the world through a negative lense, as constantly rubbish and going down the pan. If a new government improves things then the first group will shrink, the second group will change and third group will still lap up the same content. Thats why I think the Echo will run a near duplicate article towards end of the likely next Labour government's first term. They could have written the same article in the 90s or 2000s.

The railways, as much else, OUGHT to have improved in the past 13 years. Of course things didn't remain static. But to cope with need and demand things ought to have improved a lot more than they did.

Please don't play the Tweedledum-Tweedledee game of "Labour wouldn't do any better.' Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. But neither of the major parties has a radical solution to the real problems. Both trot out the same excuses ('austerity' for example).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Is the UK really any worse than everywhere else?
Recent experiences in Switzerland suggest these are not UK specific issues.
I was delayed last week on a train from Paris to Zurich (with passengers for Vienna - not including me - missing a connection) and again today due to a derailment in the Gotthard Base tunnel:, with the local train over the "panoramic" route heavily overcrowded as a result

 

[AGH]

That CLC route has been messed around since I was a kid growing up on it. Pre mid 80s we got the odd Sunday Sheffield train (the beautiful class 124) with locals being 108s and 115s. Rarely overcrowded.

Hazel grove chord introduced 31/4s with 4 carriages hitting Sheffield and if I recall Cleethorpes.

I used to commute in the early 90s to Liverpool and the Manchester and under the auspices of Central Trains the problems started. 3 car 170s weren't enough. EMT were a disaster. 2 car regularly and so bad I did a piece for 5 live where they followed me on my commute rammed.

Capacity hasn't changed since Hazel grove. Arguably better in those days. TP trains used to help. Once on Oxford Road a 7 car 158 conglomeration turned up and the 1741 from Oxford Road (0816 From Warrington central in the morning) were very much to be avoided. A lot for Warrington used Bank Quay instead just to guarantee getting on.

So as passenger numbers climbed zero was done to alleviate the situation over a 30 year period. I personally got so fed up I moved off the line. I now live on the Chat Moss and far more reliable even with issues.

It needs rolling stock but has done for 30 years. Id have taken it off the east Midlands franchise years ago and given it to tpe or Northern stopping it at Sheffield. Late running towards Liverpool, cancelling past Manchester or Warrington was a regular occurrence in the past. The tpe Cleethorpes now I see when in lime Street gets cancelled.

It's always been the poorer cousin to Chat Moss. It's IMHO 3 services anyway. Liverpool-Manchester, Sheffield and the Nottingham run. Anything further quicker to go other ways. Treating it as such might well be the solution for the sake of reliability and capacity.

 

[dk1]

Is the UK really any worse than everywhere else?
Recent experiences in Switzerland suggest these are not UK specific issues.
I was delayed last week on a train from Paris to Zurich (with passengers for Vienna - not including me - missing a connection) and again today due to a derailment in the Gotthard Base tunnel:, with the local train over the "panoramic" route heavily overcrowded as a result

I’ve often found DB to be hideously unreliable with many delayed services over the years. I think us Brits get off on being negative. It’s something we do extremely well lol.

 

[TheLunaPark]

I’ve often found DB to be hideously unreliable with many delayed services over the years. I think us Brits get off on being negative. It’s something we do extremely well lol.

Disruption due to unforeseen reasons we can understand. But nowhere else are you ripped off so much to travel in a filthy, often knackered train that even without disruption will rarely arrive on time. I agree that we Brits do like a moan but the state of our railways cannot be excused. No operator around the world is perfect, even JR on very rare occasions, but we really are a laughing stock and deservedly so.

 

[Scott1]

I’ve often found DB to be hideously unreliable with many delayed services over the years. I think us Brits get off on being negative. It’s something we do extremely well lol.

It's the cost that doesn't help. You pay a fortune for a dirty, worn out train, especially on this route (and others, of course). So even if my train is fully formed and on time, it's still going to be full and standing most days, have worn out seats and carpets, and be boiling hot in summer.

 

[Falcon1200]

filthy, often knackered train that even without disruption will rarely arrive on time.

Rarely arrive on time? I travel thousands of miles on our railway every year and by far the majority of trains do arrive on time. And they're not all filthy and knackered either.

but we really are a laughing stock and deservedly so.

In what respect? Our safety record in particular is the envy of almost every other railway, in the world, and deservedly so.

 

[yorksrob]

Disruption due to unforeseen reasons we can understand. But nowhere else are you ripped off so much to travel in a filthy, often knackered train that even without disruption will rarely arrive on time. I agree that we Brits do like a moan but the state of our railways cannot be excused. No operator around the world is perfect, even JR on very rare occasions, but we really are a laughing stock and deservedly so.

It's the cost that doesn't help. You pay a fortune for a dirty, worn out train, especially on this route (and others, of course). So even if my train is fully formed and on time, it's still going to be full and standing most days, have worn out seats and carpets, and be boiling hot in summer.

Indeed. If we had an equivalent to the Bahncart, climate ticket etc, a bit of lateness and overcrowding might be more forgivable. But instead we're stuck with a failed quasi-commercial mess egged on by a motorist orientated treasury.

 

[dk1]

Our safety record in particular is the envy of almost every other railway, in the world, and deservedly so.

Absolutely.

 

[TheLunaPark]

Rarely arrive on time? I travel thousands of miles on our railway every year and by far the majority of trains do arrive on time. And they're not all filthy and knackered either.



In what respect? Our safety record in particular is the envy of almost every other railway, in the world, and deservedly so.

So because you rarely experience late and poorly cleaned/maintained trains then no one else does? Right gotcha.

We’re a laughing stock because of ticket prices, HS2, an inept government that will not invest properly in the railways and the aforementioned poor punctuality on many lines serviced by knackered old trains like Sprinters for instance with dirty interiors. Safety is the one and only thing our railways excel in.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I’ve often found DB to be hideously unreliable with many delayed services over the years. I think us Brits get off on being negative. It’s something we do extremely well lol.

Over the past week I've travelled with Eurostar (1) SNCF (2, including RER), SBB (5) and DB (2). A small sample, I know, but only Eurostar and DB have been 100% on time.

 

[The exile]

So because you rarely experience late and poorly cleaned/maintained trains then no one else does? Right gotcha.

We’re a laughing stock because of ticket prices, HS2, an inept government that will not invest properly in the railways and the aforementioned poor punctuality on many lines serviced by knackered old trains like Sprinters for instance with dirty interiors. Safety is the one and only thing our railways excel in.

Well, if there’s got to be only one thing (and I agree, it shouldn’t be restricted to one), that’s probably the best to have. One of the reasons for lateness is our obsession with screwing the maximum out of everything (capacity, speed etc) and leaving little or no contingency. Look at the moans elsewhere about station dwell times and the importance of speeding up a journey by 2 minutes….

 

[dk1]

Over the past week I've travelled with Eurostar (1) SNCF (2, including RER), SBB (5) and DB (2). A small sample, I know, but only Eurostar and DB have been 100% on time.

Good to hear mate.

 

[frodshamfella]

From the Liverpool Echo:

I can confirm that trains between Sheffield and Manchester are usually full to capacity, or more...

Sounds a very accurate account , and have to say , you don't see this in the SE

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds a very accurate account , and have to say , you don't see this in the SE

You absolutely do, see for example Chiltern putting out 2-car sets which are rammed and standing, and how utterly awful the GWR suburbans were before electrification. The SE is not a land of milk and honey.

 

[frodshamfella]

Strange comment. Thorp's point is that the train service between four major cities, including Manchester whose regeneration is implied, not dismissed, is far less than adequate and not what anyone should have to put up with. The infrastructure to serve London and the south east is much superior, and understandably so given the much larger population and economy. But the sort of tinpot multiple unit which might be perfectly suited to a remote rural line in midWales, is blatantly obviously not the intercity train service which this route deserves and needs.

The Liverpool Echo's standards have fallen way below even the standards of National Rail, nevertheless Liam Thorp is one of their few remaining journalists of quality. He is articulate and writes well (even if he can't spell minuscule!). Comments on here about political bias miss the point: it's the job of the press to hold politicians to account. Who is ultimately responsible for the lack of investment in rolling stock? Or the refusal to recruit enough staff to run the advertised train service? Clearly it is the government, which for the past thirteen years has been a Conservative one. The fact that the alternative of a Labour government is unlikely to do much better is a confirmation of a broken system, which prioritises short term electoral advantage over radical policies. To turn this into a party political issue is to play their game. Only radical change will solve matters.

well said

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2023 ==

You absolutely do, see for example Chiltern putting out 2-car sets which are rammed and standing, and how utterly awful the GWR suburbans were before electrification. The SE is not a land of milk and honey.

Well ive never experienced it myself. I use South Eastern towards Dartford, have never had to stand. I was on GWR to and from Mortimer last Friday and Monday, again very relaxing journey. Its just not the same as up north which is generally appalling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2023 ==

but I deliberately typed "trans-Pennine" trains, meaning Northern, EMT and TPE services across the Pennines. The Manchester to Scotland services seem to have been pretty rough when I have been out and about near Carlisle, but yesterday in Liverpool I saw loads of local and longer-distance trains cancelled

That is regular at Lime Street, exacerbating the already poor service levels. Its not uncommon for Liverpool - Birmingham to be cancelled , and now its only 1 per hour and very busy.

 

[bramling]

Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that Britain is currently broken every which way.

The article is also a good reminder that, despite the weasel words of Bojo and his ilk, England is run in the South, by the South and for the South.

Completely agree that Britain is screwed at the moment, but don’t think that things are any better in the south. People there are just as peeved as anywhere else. Different issues perhaps, but same crap.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2023 ==

It's been stated many times - a workable solution is to reduce the published timetable to one you can deliver (to say 95% punctuality and reliability) with the resources you have, because doing otherwise is just being dishonest.

I’m a bit sceptical of that. Whilst in theory it seems sensible, there’s the big risk that you end up with resources continuing to be run down, such that we simply end up in the same situation but with a lesser service in the first place.

We’ve kind of seen that here with GTR. Successive reductions to the timetable compared to December 2019, yet still unable to deliver.

 

[frodshamfella]

Being the Liverpool Echo, they no doubt slept through Manchester and the ample evidence of regeneration. Likewise, I suspect they conveniently ignored the environmental benefits that the changing land use between Nottingham and Sheffield is connected with. Probably no mention of all that is happening with the old UMIST campus next to the Piccadilly-Oxford Road section in Manchester. That is not to say the growth of investment in Manchester, the change away from coal, or academic-industry collaboration are necessarily 100% good, but that train does showcase quite a lot of what might otherwise be termed "progressing Britain".

When Liverpool - Nottingham went up to 4 carriages it was a major boost. The turbostars on the line had 3 carriages, but mostly it had been a 2-car line. Admittedly 2-car is a short form now, but it is certainly not symptomatic of any breaking.

We would all like to see new infrastructure build and more efficient uses of existing capacity, but presently it is hard to see where a money tree will come from to kickstart the virtuous cycle of development of the railways.

Their remit is the LCR generally, and regeneration in that region. Regeneration in Manchester would be handled by the local paper there for the most part, so not really relevant. However the reporter is spot on with what one can expect from rail travel across the north.

 

[gallafent]

will rarely arrive on time

I travel thousands of miles on our railway every year and by far the majority of trains do arrive on time.

I did a quick search for a snapshot of weekday evening services local to me, and found that by far the majority of them were late. Clearly it should be possible for the maintainers of the recenttraintimes to perform a similar query over all services for a given period (the last six months, say), and thus definitively answer that question for the network as a whole.

 

[yorkie]

Is the UK really any worse than everywhere else?
Recent experiences in Switzerland suggest these are not UK specific issues.
I was delayed last week on a train from Paris to Zurich (with passengers for Vienna - not including me - missing a connection) and again today due to a derailment in the Gotthard Base tunnel:, with the local train over the "panoramic" route heavily overcrowded as a result

This is exceptional; Switzerland is a far more civilised place for train travel than the UK. Many people have (what we call) Railcards over there and overcrowding is the exception, not the norm. Based on cost of living, rail travel is more affordable and zonal priced fares do not penalise passengers for mixing "modes", unlike in the UK.

The UK is very, very far behind Switzerland.

 

[Topological]

Their remit is the LCR generally, and regeneration in that region. Regeneration in Manchester would be handled by the local paper there for the most part, so not really relevant. However the reporter is spot on with what one can expect from rail travel across the north.

Only true to the extent "broken Britain" applies. Unless you mean the headline should say "broken LCR"?

My point is that, like much in life, we see what we want to see and are very good at blocking out the parts that do not fit our agendas. However, those who have read the article suggest the "broken Britain" was an editor enhancing the title rather than anything which is written in the article.

As a regular user of the service over the years I can say that there have been plenty of problems, but equally things like the increase to 4 carriages were really having a positive impact pre-covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a regular user of the service over the years I can say that there have been plenty of problems, but equally things like the increase to 4 carriages were really having a positive impact pre-covid.

There have been some transformations, e.g. Manchester to Blackpool twice an hour with 6.331 all day is pretty much the same as a South East commuter service off the mainlines. And TPE would be quite good were it not for the present staffing issues.

 

[Topological]

There have been some transformations, e.g. Manchester to Blackpool twice an hour with 6.331 all day is pretty much the same as a South East commuter service off the mainlines. And TPE would be quite good were it not for the present staffing issues.

Manchester to Preston was another regular journey of mine. Improvements on that corridor since it was the preserve of 15x and 14x are beyond impressive.

The issue appears to be the growth of passengers has outstripped the number of additional seats per hour. Somehow I feel like the statistics do not say that, but for there to be overcrowding with so many extra seats means something must be happening.

It would be great if the CLC was electrified and then meaningful use of EMUs was made between Liverpool and Manchester to bring major capacity benefits. The problem then is that it does not help the Liverpool to Norwich itself.

With the specific Nottingham to Liverpool journey I am not sure if there is much more can be done. I would like there to be a service via the Dore South curve but then there needs to be extra paths to keep Nottingham to Sheffield and Manchester to Sheffield regular. Such a split would help spread the loadings.

Pending anything drastic more carriages seems to be the answer, ideally in a way which is robust to staff shortages and/or maintenance issues.

 

[frodshamfella]

Only true to the extent "broken Britain" applies. Unless you mean the headline should say "broken LCR"?

My point is that, like much in life, we see what we want to see and are very good at blocking out the parts that do not fit our agendas. However, those who have read the article suggest the "broken Britain" was an editor enhancing the title rather than anything which is written in the article.

As a regular user of the service over the years I can say that there have been plenty of problems, but equally things like the increase to 4 carriages were really having a positive impact pre-covid.

How can it be broken LCR, he gets on at Nottingham, and mentions the cities the train calls at across the north. I see no agenda, he is talking about a typical long distance rail trip in the north. Its more often poor than good unfortunately .

 

[Topological]

How can it be broken LCR, he gets on at Nottingham, and mentions the cities the train calls at across the north. I see no agenda, he is talking about a typical long distance rail trip in the north. Its more often poor than good unfortunately .

Then why question where I posted about the good things the train passes outside the LCR? Things which are the absolute opposite of broken.

As @Bletchleyite and I have highlighted there have been many meaningful improvements across the North, albeit that many focus on Manchester as the defacto Northern hub city.

Going to discussions about economic hubs and the comparative geographies the railways were built to, versus those which dominate in a lower transport cost age is very interesting but would take us far off topic.