'A Code of Practice (CoP) on retail information for rail tickets and services'

[yorkie]

http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/wp-content/uploads/file/2015-03_retail_information_CoP.PDF

...The primary purpose of this Code of Practice is to provide guidance for train operating companies and third party retailers on, and promote best practice in, meeting consumer law and industry standards associated with the provision of information to passengers in connection with the sale and use of rail products and services. Passengers may also find it useful in helping them understand how the industry operates, the choices available to them and the service they should expect.

It has been developed with input from train operating companies, other ticket retailers, the Office of Rail Regulation and Passenger Focus in response to research that have shown the quality of information provided to passengers is not always sufficient to help them make the best decisions when choosing, buying and using the products and services available. This led the Department for Transport to recommend the development of the code in its fares and ticketing report in October 2013....

This PDF document may be of interest, however in my opinion there needs to be more enforcement by means of 'mystery shopping' to ensure that the high standards are being consistently met.

For example, the retail experience at King's Cross can be rather different, depending on not just whether you use the ticket office (and if so, who serves you) or the ticket machine, but also which ticket machine you use, with some selling tickets for certain destinations at much cheaper prices than others.

The CoP sounds good, but if operators are able to disregard it, then that's a major concern. However if an operator has disregarded it, presumably that strengthens our case to redress any losses.

 

[RJ]

I read that the other day. I wonder when, or if this will actually have any effect on training or appraisal process for those on the front line. It would be a good idea if this was provided to recruiters as well, so they can scout for the competencies that would enable potential employees to stick to it and provide good customer service.

 

[Flamingo]

Page 8 is interesting, re: Advance Tickets:

. Advance tickets: a passenger can only get on/off a train at the origin and destination for which the ticket is valid, ticket is only valid with accompanying proof of reservation (where required), and any restrictions on refunds;

 

[yorkie]

Page 8 is interesting, re: Advance Tickets:

That's nothing new; it's in the T&Cs and these instructions are for retailers. It doesn't change the industry guidance not to charge people an excess fare though (discussed in many threads, including Incorrect information given out on Scotrail Facebook page today)

 

[krus_aragon]

That's nothing new; it's in the T&Cs and these instructions are for retailers.

I think Flamingo may have been thinking about how the guidance assumes all Advance journeys are done by direct train, with no changes en-route (because you "can only get on/off a train at the origin and destination").

 

[Flamingo]

I think Flamingo may have been thinking about how the guidance assumes all Advance journeys are done by direct train, with no changes en-route (because you "can only get on/off a train at the origin and destination").

No, I did mean in relation to the discussion on starting and finishing short on Advance tickets...

 

[krus_aragon]

No, I did mean in relation to the discussion on starting and finishing short on Advance tickets...

Ah. As you may guess, I read it in another way...

 

[Flamingo]

Ah. As you may guess, I read it in another way...

No worries

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just had a read...Where are they going to find extra staff to deal with the massive queues that will result from staff having to spend 10 minutes questioning passengers and detailing restrictions for every ticket they sell? And who will the delay minutes be attributed to for on-train sales?

 

[yorkie]

Just had a read...Where are they going to find extra staff to deal with the massive queues that will result from staff having to spend 10 minutes questioning passengers and detailing restrictions for every ticket they sell? And who will the delay minutes be attributed to for on-train sales?

You're surely not suggesting rail fares are not simple, and that the new names don't "describe when you can buy or use a ticket" and that conditions are not "the same across all train companies nationwide, so you know exactly where you stand" by any chance? (rhetorical question; no answer required!)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...It doesn't change the industry guidance not to charge people an excess fare though....

Well, you say that, but your extract says that the primary purpose is "to provide guidance for the train companies". So, presumably, now we have guidance to ignore the guidance that contradicted the T&Cs????

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

 

[Starmill]

I think the NRCoC makes mention of 'information cards' which should be given out with every off-peak ticket 'where possible' detalling the restrictions. Ask at some ticket offices and they don't even know what a restriction code is, or tell you that off-peak is after 0930. I dont think I have ever seen such a information card given out with an off-peak ticket - ever.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think the NRCoC makes mention of 'information cards' which should be given out with every off-peak ticket 'where possible' detalling the restrictions. Ask at some ticket offices and they don't even know what a restriction code is, or tell you that off-peak is after 0930. I dont think I have ever seen such a information card given out with an off-peak ticket - ever.

Last Off-Peak conditions card I remember seeing was produced by GNER, though before "complification" there were generic cards for Savers, Super Savers, Super Advances and Apexes, and MML produced conditions cards for their own products.

 

[AngusH]

http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/wp-content/uploads/file/2015-03_retail_information_CoP.PDF



This PDF document may be of interest, however in my opinion there needs to be more enforcement by means of 'mystery shopping' to ensure that the high standards are being consistently met.

<Snip>

The CoP sounds good, but if operators are able to disregard it, then that's a major concern. However if an operator has disregarded it, presumably that strengthens our case to redress any losses.

I'm not a lawyer, the following is my interpretation of what I've read and been told and is not legal advice of any kind. If you need it, get proper advice from a proper source.


My thought is that these guidelines are in fact an attempt to comply with the new consumer regulations.


The ORR published some guidance notes a while back on this and they are technically the enforcement body.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/5552/guidance_on_our_consumer_law_role_310310.pdf

One interesting example from the guidance note was if any part of a journey has a bus replacement this must be explained to the passenger before they buy a ticket.
Because if they knew about the bus they might drive or fly in this example.


There are also a number of recent issues that I've read about which probably fall into the scope of the consumer rules. The Paddington off peak gate line issues and a recent post about placement of day and period returns on ticket machines both come to mind.


AIUI Failure to comply with the consumer regulations is a legal offence and may be reported to the ORR for potential prosecution, whether any loss has occurred or not. There is also apparently no requirement for any particular number of complaints.


There are a number of areas where they may be a mismatch between what is actually happening and what is permitted by these new laws.

Any purchase where the information presented is misleading or confusing information is essentially banned.
This seems to include many of the disputes posted to these forums which don't involve actual fraud.

I'm even wondering if things like having a timetable with a cover picture that (e.g) shows a class 185 and then actually providing a pacer might be an issue? Because the customer made a decision to travel based on the picture and the actual service is worse. Maybe operators will have to show only their worst trains in publicity pictures. Or use wording like "Vehicles may vary from those pictured"


I may be way off base here, but it could require significant changes to procedures or it might mean nothing.

(Also did anyone else notice the change with the "Office of Rail Regulator" becoming "Office of Rail and Road". It caught me by surprise recently)

 

[PermitToTravel]

I was told about it on the 1st of April, the date the change took place, and assumed it was an April Fools Joke... ditto Passenger Focus being renamed to Transport Focus and now also representing road users.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

This CoP has been "spun" so that the DfT/Govt believe it is going to remove the "inconsistencies" in ticket prices depending on where the traveller chooses to buy from. It certainly doesn't do that.

 

[furlong]

This CoP has been "spun" so that the DfT/Govt believe it is going to remove the "inconsistencies" in ticket prices depending on where the traveller chooses to buy from. It certainly doesn't do that.

The TSA already tried that but breaches seem to get brushed aside and I think many people have given up trying to get them resolved. (I suspect that if pushed hard enough, they'd just bring themselves into compliance by updating the document to reflect what they do rather than changing behaviour).

The new CoP is pretty worthless until the ORR demonstrates some backbone and pursues prosecutions against companies that fail to get their house into order. I mean, adding cheap stickers of small print to ticket machines to add another line of defence against a prosecution by the ORR, instead of paying to fix the software to present the passenger with the right information and choices in the first place as the TSA has mandated for years...

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

....adding cheap stickers of small print to ticket machines...

Imagine the "tutting" from others in the queue if someone actually bothered to try to read the sticker

 

[thedbdiboy]

The TSA already tried that but breaches seem to get brushed aside and I think many people have given up trying to get them resolved. (I suspect that if pushed hard enough, they'd just bring themselves into compliance by updating the document to reflect what they do rather than changing behaviour).

The new CoP is pretty worthless until the ORR demonstrates some backbone and pursues prosecutions against companies that fail to get their house into order. I mean, adding cheap stickers of small print to ticket machines to add another line of defence against a prosecution by the ORR, instead of paying to fix the software to present the passenger with the right information and choices in the first place as the TSA has mandated for years...

Actually, if you read the TSA, it is pretty hopeless at providing ANY sort of clear guidance for ticket machines. There is plenty of guidance for staffed ticket offices but when it was written in 1995, TVMs were just Quickfare machines.

In that context, the Code of Practice provides a template for a proper update of the TSA in this area.

 

[AngusH]

Has the ORR ever prosecuted anyone for breaches in the consumer rules or the ticketing agreements?

I can't find any evidence of them doing so.

I would have thought if they have then there would be a press release somewhere of the type "Government agency standing up for passenger rights" or something.

I'm surprised by the switch to transport focus and road users too.

Is this really "focus" if they focus on everything?
Haven't they enough to do already?

I'm lucky I didn't see it on April 1st or I probably wouldn't have believed it either.

 

[furlong]

Actually, if you read the TSA, it is pretty hopeless at providing ANY sort of clear guidance for ticket machines.

There's not much, but the little there is can go a long way.

6-30 (1) (d)
Operators must accurately Sell to Purchasers the Fares appropriate for the journey described by the Purchasers.

That should cover selling Anytime Day tickets at weekends when cheaper Off-Peak tickets exist and numerous other examples people have found.

6-30 (3) (b-c)
(b) Unless the Authority agrees otherwise, if an Operator offers a Fare for Sale at a Self-service TIM, at a Station at which it is the Lead Retailer, it must also offer for Sale all Fares relating to that Flow, that are valid for travel from that Station, which have similar Rights and Restrictions, including those which entitle the Purchaser to use other Operators' trains.
(c) Paragraph (b) above also applies to a Self-service TIM located at a Station which is operated by an Operator that is not the Lead Retailer at that Station unless it is made clear to members of the public that such a range of Fares is not available from the Self-service TIM.

If it wasn't for the sloppy drafting (which probably renders it unenforceable) that would cover the machines at Kings Cross that haven't offered cheaper Grand Central tickets to some West Yorkshire destinations for years.