A 20 minute window for advance tickets opening ticket barrier

[Pemberton]

I've arrived at Birmingham New Street at 0910 for a train departing at 0943. My advance ticket wouldn't work in the barrier and the gateline staff didn't want to let me through because "they will only open the barriers within 20 minutes of the train departure time". If I want to use a shop or the Avanti 1st Class Lounge (as an aside I note this is closed today and tomorrow as per a sign on the door), this seems quite a short time window. I have to say I was manually let through the barriers, though only very very reluctantly.

 

[MrJeeves]

Did you notice the error code showing on the barrier?

I'm not totally sure, but I wouldn't imagine the mag stripe on a paper ticket storing details about what time the booked service is (how would this work for multiple booked services, for example), and e-ticket readers are rather dumb about how they check validity.

 

[island]

Railway staff are entitled to control access to the platforms as long as they do so reasonably. With up to three trains an hour from Birmingham to Euston taking just Avanti services into account, it's reasonable as a starting position for them not to let people through the gates until the train before theirs has left, so as to reduce the opportunity for someone to just jump on an earlier train. Whilst I realise that a "20 minute" rule is a blunt instrument, it's easier to remember than "20 minutes for this destination, 40 for that and an hour for the other".

I'm not totally sure, but I wouldn't imagine the mag stripe on a paper ticket storing details about what time the booked service is

They don't, although some ticket gates reject all advance tickets so the time can be verified.

If I want to use a shop or the Avanti 1st Class Lounge (as an aside I note this is closed today and tomorrow as per a sign on the door), this seems quite a short time window.

There are numerous shops outside the ticket barriers. As for the 1st class lounge, you aren't travelling on Avanti, so this isn't relevant, but if someone who was and had the right ticket asked, I'm sure they would be accommodated.

 

[hexagon789]

Did you notice the error code showing on the barrier?

I'm not totally sure, but I wouldn't imagine the mag stripe on a paper ticket storing details about what time the booked service is (how would this work for multiple booked services, for example), and e-ticket readers are rather dumb about how they check validity.

Some gates are deliberately set up to auto-reject Advance tickets for manual inspection but many are not.

I don't think the old mag strip tickets can provide a departure time to the gateline system but the Aztec codes can do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are numerous shops outside the ticket barriers. As for the 1st class lounge, you aren't travelling on Avanti, so this isn't relevant, but if someone who was and had the right ticket asked, I'm sure they would be accommodated.

The toilets are probably the main thing, but again if you specifically asked I suspect they'd let you in.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I had this on a Chiltern and Connections paper advance single entering at the origin Birmingham International yesterday (Avanti managed). Entering at 11:39 with a reserved time of 12:04. I am sure the barrier rejected with a code 106, which is a blanket "reject" code.

http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/barriers.shtm

I was asked what time train I was booked on, and was let through.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, 106 is described as "always to be rejected" where the gateline is configured to always reject that ticket type.

 

[172007]

Tbh, this is arguably good customer service and also protecting the customer. This practice reduces the chances of a customer from boarding the wrong train and then being potentialy penalised.

 

[mangyiscute]

Tbh, this is arguably good customer service and also protecting the customer. This practice reduces the chances of a customer from boarding the wrong train and then being potentialy penalised.

I would agree with this, up until the point where they try to stop op from going through - if the person travelling then makes it clear that they have a proper reason for wanting to go through earlier, whether that be shops, a lounge, or even just wanting to watch the trains, the barrier staff should let the person through immediately

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would agree with this, up until the point where they try to stop op from going through - if the person travelling then makes it clear that they have a proper reason for wanting to go through earlier, whether that be shops, a lounge, or even just wanting to watch the trains, the barrier staff should let the person through immediately

I suppose this is a case where applying an endorsement to the e-ticket when letting them through might make sense - a bit like the old RESTRICTIONS ADVISED stamp where a customer is asking that a station issue a ticket with a clear intention to use it on a service on which it is not valid, and the booking clerk is sick of trying to explain it.

That provides confirmation that the customer has been told they can't use an earlier train but let through on another basis, and then if they do use an earlier train anyway they can be treated more harshly because they are obviously taking the mick.

How much sense this makes depends on the station, though. If you have a station like Paddington where there's nothing inside the gateline bar trains, then it probably makes some sense, but if you have one like Temple Meads where all the facilities are inside then it doesn't.

 

[mangyiscute]

With Paddington, and other terminal stations, you also have the issue of there being trains which aren't announced yet, but due to tools like realtimetrains, people can work out which train their train will be - I tend to never physically go onto the platform before the train is called, since it will just cause confusion for the staff and as long as you position yourself near the correct platform, you'll always get a good seat, but somewhere like that I imagine the policy is always to never let someone through until their train's platform has been announced

 

[WelshBluebird]

Railway staff are entitled to control access to the platforms as long as they do so reasonably.

Except for many stations, including Birmingham New Street, the gates don't just control access to the platforms, they also control access to station facilities (as noted by the OP and other commentators).

The toilets are probably the main thing, but again if you specifically asked I suspect they'd let you in.

Not sure I agree that passengers should be reliant on staff being nice in order to access station facilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With Paddington, and other terminal stations, you also have the issue of there being trains which aren't announced yet, but due to tools like realtimetrains, people can work out which train their train will be - I tend to never physically go onto the platform before the train is called, since it will just cause confusion for the staff and as long as you position yourself near the correct platform, you'll always get a good seat, but somewhere like that I imagine the policy is always to never let someone through until their train's platform has been announced

I've had a member of staff let me through in exactly those circumstances from the bridge gateline - I said something along the lines of "It's that train, I know it's that train, I can see it says on the side of it, better that I stand out of the way down there than wait here in the way, I won't get on until it appears on the displays" and he let me through. And I indeed did what I said I would, stood under the stairs out of the way and didn't board until it came up on the screen. This was on a paper ticket, though, it just wasn't encoded properly, one of the TVMs at Bletchley is a bit iffy with encoding tickets, I just always forget which of the two I used by the time I discover it has happened at Euston (Bletchley gateline is almost never in use now).

On the main gateline they usually won't, though.

We may well reach a point where gatelines and the PIS are integrated well enough that an Advance ticket won't be let through until the booked train shows as boarding, but we're a way away from that. And it really depends on the station as to whether there's a reason you may need to get through ASAP - New St is arguably one because of the toilets (there's very little retail inside that's not duplicated outside), but as mentioned Paddington and Euston have nothing inside bar trains, and somewhere like Temple Meads has everything inside bar the booking office, as would Preston if it ever gets a gateline.

 

[Pemberton]

Thank you for the varied viewpoints and the Interesting comments. I had actually travelled 1st Class on Avanti to get to Birmingham New Street and was trying to get to their 1st Class Lounge (I do get confused with the 'A' and 'B' end differences regarding one meaning negotiating barriers and the other not). Anyway, I ended up using my tickets to get as far as Birmingham New Street to exit the barriers and needed my 0943 tickets for the next train to get back in. When they didn't work in the barriers at 0910, I was told it was because I wasn't within 20 minutes of the departure time. As I mentioned previously the Avanti 1st class lounge actually had a 'closed' sign on it when I got there. I would say that the 0943 departure had an arrival time at Birmingham New Street of around 0933 (some 10 minutes waiting time) which I was aiming for and with my wife not being the most mobile I might have been a bit stressed if I wasn't let through until 0923, which was the permissible time for the tickets to automatically activate the barrier from what gateline staff indicated.

 

[mangyiscute]

Thank you for the varied viewpoints and the Interesting comments. I had actually travelled 1st Class on Avanti to get to Birmingham New Street and was trying to get to their 1st Class Lounge (I do get confused with the 'A' and 'B' end differences regarding one meaning negotiating barriers and the other not). Anyway, I ended up using my tickets to get as far as Birmingham New Street to exit the barriers and needed my 0943 tickets for the next train to get back in. When they didn't work in the barriers at 0910, I was told it was because I wasn't within 20 minutes of the departure time. As I mentioned previously the Avanti 1st class lounge actually had a 'closed' sign on it when I got there. I would say that the 0943 departure had an arrival time at Birmingham New Street of around 0933 (some 10 minutes waiting time) which I was aiming for and with my wife not being the most mobile I might have been a bit stressed if I wasn't let through until 0923, which was the permissible time for the tickets to automatically activate the barrier from what gateline staff indicated.

It may be worth asking them for some sort of compensation if the first class lounge was shut when you wished to use it - as I said above, I'd hope if you explained all of this to them they'd let you through without hassle, but unfortunately, some staff just see it as their way, and they don't care what the customer has to say

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be worth asking them for some sort of compensation if the first class lounge was shut when you wished to use it - as I said above, I'd hope if you explained all of this to them they'd let you through without hassle, but unfortunately, some staff just see it as their way, and they don't care what the customer has to say

If they intend to do this as an ongoing thing, it probably makes sense to move the lounge outside the gateline. It's outside at Euston after all. It's just a room with some chairs and a counter in it, relocating it into any empty shop unit wouldn't be hard.

 

[Pemberton]

They didn't get the year right!

 

[crosscity]

Railway staff are entitled to control access to the platforms as long as they do so reasonably. With up to three trains an hour from Birmingham to Euston taking just Avanti services into account, it's reasonable as a starting position for them not to let people through the gates until the train before theirs has left, so as to reduce the opportunity for someone to just jump on an earlier train. Whilst I realise that a "20 minute" rule is a blunt instrument, it's easier to remember than "20 minutes for this destination, 40 for that and an hour for the other.

I wouldn't mind being stopped and told "you must only catch the train specified on the ticket which doesn't leave for half-an-hour", but I would be miffed if I wasn't allowed through the barrier (unless there was a valid reason such as serious overcrowding at the station).

 

[mangyiscute]

They didn't get the year right!

It wouldn't surprise me if it's been up for a year

 

[island]

I wouldn't mind being stopped and told "you must only catch the train specified on the ticket which doesn't leave for half-an-hour", but I would be miffed if I wasn't allowed through the barrier (unless there was a valid reason such as serious overcrowding at the station).

People will still jump on the first train and give attitude to the TM if challenged.

 

[hawk1911]

Thank you for the varied viewpoints and the Interesting comments. I had actually travelled 1st Class on Avanti to get to Birmingham New Street and was trying to get to their 1st Class Lounge (I do get confused with the 'A' and 'B' end differences regarding one meaning negotiating barriers and the other not). Anyway, I ended up using my tickets to get as far as Birmingham New Street to exit the barriers and needed my 0943 tickets for the next train to get back in. When they didn't work in the barriers at 0910, I was told it was because I wasn't within 20 minutes of the departure time. As I mentioned previously the Avanti 1st class lounge actually had a 'closed' sign on it when I got there. I would say that the 0943 departure had an arrival time at Birmingham New Street of around 0933 (some 10 minutes waiting time) which I was aiming for and with my wife not being the most mobile I might have been a bit stressed if I wasn't let through until 0923, which was the permissible time for the tickets to automatically activate the barrier from what gateline staff indicated.

For changing platforms at Birmingham New Street, I have my own reminder:
A = AVOID
B = BEST
It works for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For changing platforms at Birmingham New Street, I have my own reminder:
A = AVOID
B = BEST
It works for me.

I actually tend to go to the A end because the toilets are quieter and I usually want to use them. Passing two gatelines is hardly a killer.

 

[AY1975]

Has anyone had any experience of this 20 minute window with any operators other than Avanti?

 

[crosscity]

People will still jump on the first train and give attitude to the TM if challenged.

We have no idea how often this happens. It sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Isn't it only a small minority who would do this? And won't there be an announcement on the train before it leaves suggesting all manner of pain if you've got an advance ticket for another train or operator? That's been my experience.

 

[trainophile]

If you're making a connection so already on the trains side of the barriers, they can hardly prevent you going down to your next platform.

It's rather ironic really, if on an Advance ticket with a long connection time they will almost always let you out without any problems, but it seems getting back in might become the tricky thing now. If there's a queue for the toilets (at the B end) and your departure is from platform 1, 20 minutes might be pushing it to queue and do what you have to do and sprint down the concourse.

Is this 20 minutes a new thing? I've never encountered it and I use BHM a lot.

 

[greatkingrat]

I guess that is one advantage of the separate gatelines, if you are not allowed through the A side, you can just try again at the B side.

 

[crablab]

People will still jump on the first train and give attitude to the TM if challenged.

Then they can issue an excess to the appropriate flexible fare.

Just like all the pointless barrage of announcements that just get ignored, I don't need to be nannied into getting on the right train. It does get frustrating when you're prevented from going about your business and have to give lengthy explanations of what you're doing.

Maybe we could "chillax" on the bossing people around in officious tones? And be a bit more understanding of people who accidentally get on the wrong train, and not threaten them with prosecution... Then maybe the travelling experience would be a bit nicer for the majority.

 

[njr001]

Had this issue at Cardiff Central with an e-ticket not opening gate although I think i may have been told I could only enter 30 minutes prior to departure time, however when I requested access to First Class lounge I was allowed through.

 

[island]

Then they can issue an excess to the appropriate flexible fare.

It’s better customer service to avoid the passenger incurring an excess fare in the first instance.

 

[xotGD]

Don't they make a big thing of the so-called "lounges" at New Street? Where you are supposed to relax in comfort while waiting for your train.

A bit tricky if you are forced to mill about outside the barrier until close to departure time.

I imagine that the retail outlets inside the barrier aren't great fans of this policy.