9F 2-10-0 Query

[38Cto15E]

Whilst looking through Colin Walkers excellent books on the Great Central I noticed something about the 9F's which you may be able to help me with.

Some 9F's had a small square section cut out on the cab sides below the numbers and on the front edge of the cab side. This is on both sides of locos which had these cut outs and looks about 6" square.
You may have to look at a number of 9F's before you see what I am on about.
https://transportsofdelight.smugmug...RALWAYS-STANDARD-CLASS-LOCOMOTIVES/i-9LZj729/

 

[snakeeyes]

Never seen this before.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Me neither, looking at some other examples it seems like they are shuttered or have hinged flaps, and at first l could only find shots of them fitted to double chimneyed variants, but have since then seen them on single and Crosti boilered examples too.

 

[gazthomas]

I can’t open the link for some reason but I wonder if these were for tablets. Some Scottish Region diesels had them early on in their lives

 

[AndrewE]

It's interesting that the hole only seems to be on the fireman's side above the injectors and one picture seems to have a pipe hanging out. I wonder whether it was so that an emergency steam feed could be led down to the injectors? Alternatively, maybe the slacking pipe could be used to cool them (although I would have expected that to be aimed from the cab window.)

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can’t open the link for some reason but I wonder if these were for tablets. Some Scottish Region diesels had them early on in their lives

That crossed my mind too but a good bit of searching ended in a nil result.

It's interesting that the hole only seems to be on the fireman's side above the injectors and one picture seems to have a pipe hanging out. I wonder whether it was so that an emergency steam feed could be led down to the injectors? Alternatively, maybe the slacking pipe could be used to cool them (although I would have expected that to be aimed from the cab window.)

On some of the other photos I've seen its fitted on the driving side also Andrew.

 

[delt1c]

Emergency exit for small fireman

 

[The Lad]

Slacking pipes give hot water.

 

[John Webb]

Diagrams in both "Riddles and the '9F's" (Colonel H C B Rogers, Ian Allan 1982) and "The '9Fs' BR's Heavy Freight Locomotives" (J S Morgan, Ian Allan, 1994) all show this little flap. Photos in the same books show that these often were leaning inward from the bottom, but that in the later days of steam they appear to be closed and under the dirt virtually unseen!
But neither book makes any mention of them or their purpose.

 

[theageofthetra]

For washing down the footplate with some sort of steam lance and allowing the water/dirt an escape?

 

[AndrewE]

Slacking pipes give hot water.

Depends how much steam you blend in! The low level exit from the cab could have been to allow a flow of water downhill from the tender with no steam... but as they are on the drivers side too it's probably nothing to do with the injectors.
Thinking of how big everything on the railway is when you get up close to it, I bet they were at least 2 ft long by 18 inches high, and a drain flap wouldn't have needed to be that big. A ventilator seems a pointless feature in an open-backed cab (when forward-facing windows can be made to open), so it really is a puzzle .

 

[John Webb]

Depends how much steam you blend in! The low level exit from the cab could have been to allow a flow of water downhill from the tender with no steam... but as they are on the drivers side too it's probably nothing to do with the injectors.
Thinking of how big everything on the railway is when you get up close to it, I bet they were at least 2 ft long by 18 inches high, and a drain flap wouldn't have needed to be that big. A ventilator seems a pointless feature in an open-backed cab (when forward-facing windows can be made to open), so it really is a puzzle .

Quick measurements on the diagrams mentioned in my post (#9 above) suggest they were about half the size you suggest, ie 12in by 9in. Drain flaps struck me as a possibility, but there is no sign in any of the pictures in either book of streaks of water etc. below these flaps. Possibly for access to something below footplate level that was only required during servicing at a shed?

 

[Cowley]

They don’t seem to appear on any of the other standard classes which I would’ve thought might count out them being fitted for washing the footplate down or anything similar.
Are they there to access something with a certain type of large tool? Perhaps the rocking grate assembly? Which is maybe difficult to do with the rear drivers being quite far back on the locomotive.

 

[Ash Bridge]

They don’t seem to appear on any of the other standard classes which I would’ve thought might count out them being fitted for washing the footplate down or anything similar.
Are they there to access something with a certain type of large tool? Perhaps the rocking grate assembly? Which is maybe difficult to do with the rear drivers being quite far back on the locomotive.

Yes, and why are they only fitted on selected 9Fs, surely it has to be something installed that is unique to just those locomotives? If a list could be made of which examples were so fitted then work out what traffic these locos had been allocated to, then perhaps it could give us a little bit more of a clue, easier said than done obviously.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, and why are they only fitted on selected 9Fs, surely it has to be something installed that is unique to just those locomotives? If a list could be made of which examples were so fitted then work out what traffic these locos had been allocated to, then perhaps it could give us a little bit more of a clue, easier said than done obviously.

...and also were they on both sides of the locos that had them fitted, or either the driver's or fireman's side? There's a real challenge: find pictures of the same loco from opposite sides showing the cab side detail! I don't think I spotted a flap on the drivers side on any of the photos we were originally linked to...

 

[Cowley]

I’m assuming we’re talking about these flaps?
Zoomed in...

I note that Evening Star has them and actually I’m struggling to find a photo of a 9F without them fitted. Has anyone got a picture of a cab without them?

Another one.


And another...

 

[Cowley]

Evening Star seems to have them on both sides. Pretty sure the others I’ve looked at do too.
I suppose that they could be something to do with ventilation on a type that would require a fireman to work hard but at relatively slow speeds. Someone must know this?

 

[AndrewE]

Now that I have looked at the original pictures again I agree they are present on pretty well every picture that might show them and whichever side of the footplate is in view. Your first picture Cowley (the one that looks like an unpainted perfect scale model) makes it look as though they are a bit above the actual footplate/floor height, so probably not drains... Who built the model, do they still have the drawings and is there any clue there?
I know a man who has fired preserved locos so I'll see if he has any suggestions.

 

[Cowley]

The model picture was just one I found online Andrew which showed it well. I think it’s a DJH model.

 

[Cowley]

Here you go then chaps. I asked on the other forum and it seems that they were for accessing the washout plug on the bottom corner of the firebox...

 

[Ash Bridge]

Here you go then chaps. I asked on the other forum and it seems that they were for accessing the washout plug on the bottom corner of the firebox...

Excellent work Mr C

 

[Cowley]

Excellent work Mr C

As soon as he said it I thought “oh yeah. Wish I’d thought of that...”