8A/3A Break of journey restriction imposed on return portion?

[janb]

Looking at www.nationalrail.co.uk/8a and /3a recent changes have been made to these that seem to imply that Break of Journey is now barred on the return as well as the outward?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s been like that for ages and as you might expect it is wrong.

 

[janb]

Mmm, something definitely changed on the page on the 23rd April. Certainly on the 3A they have put the Break of Journey in bold and moved it to the notes section. Having looked at the wayback machine and compared it does appear to be a case of bad web design rather than policy change.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is not legally permitted for them to enforce any break of journey restrictions on the return portion of any Off-peak ticket, whether Day, Super or otherwise. If you refer to the detailed information given when buying such tickets online, they should make clear that break of journey is allowed on the return portion. Some sites will refer you to the nationalrail.co.uk lookup to see if there are any outward portion restrictions, whereas others will simply tell you to get in contact with them to ask. The best retailing sites tell you straight up whether or not it is allowed

 

[mallard]

Surely, since National Rail is the authoritative source for this infromation (if it isn't, what is?), then whatever it says must be assumed to be correct. Even if the change was made in error, it would surely still be binding in the absence of conflicting information given at the time of purchase. Just as would be the case if National Rail were to publish text that made a ticket less restrictive than it should be.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Break of journey
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Surely, since National Rail is the authoritative source for this infromation (if it isn't, what is?), then whatever it says must be assumed to be correct. Even if the change was made in error, it would surely still be binding in the absence of conflicting information given at the time of purchase. Just as would be the case if National Rail were to publish text that made a ticket less restrictive than it should be.

If there are conflicting statements on a particular term in a consumer contract (i.e. that could be interpreted either way), then consumer law dictates that the more favourable interpretation for the consumer is the binding one. It doesn't go both ways - as demonstrated by another post above, the restriction code page is in direct conflict with the statement on the general permissibility of BoJ. The statement on the general permissibility would then count.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely, since National Rail is the authoritative source for this infromation (if it isn't, what is?), then whatever it says must be assumed to be correct. Even if the change was made in error, it would surely still be binding in the absence of conflicting information given at the time of purchase. Just as would be the case if National Rail were to publish text that made a ticket less restrictive than it should be.

Ticket restrictions cannot override the franchise agreement signed by the TOC, as VT found to their cost when they tried to put evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC in place.

This kind of botch does give the "bad eggs" among staff ammunition, though, so it needs to be fixed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BTW do you have an example of an 8A SVR? I can't find one!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

BTW do you have an example of an 8A SVR? I can't find one!

ATW have them all over their territory. They seem to be one of the last remaining TOCs who continue to use 8A in any widespread fashion. There are of course other TOCs with completely or effectively unrestricted SVRs but 8A is an 'endangered' species!

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATW have them all over their territory. They seem to be one of the last remaining TOCs who continue to use 8A in any widespread fashion. There are of course other TOCs with completely or effectively unrestricted SVRs but 8A is an 'endangered' species!

This is the wording from brfares.com which makes it clear it's the outward:

Restriction Code: 8A

The following details applies
to current travel only.

APPLICABLE DAYS

Any day

OUTWARD TRAVEL

No time restriction.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

RETURN TRAVEL

No time restriction.

For full restriction details
and all T&Cs, see
www.nationalrail.co.uk

Powered by National Rail
Enquiries

It looks like they just copy-pasted the outward time restriction and return time restriction text and all notes into one bit. I'm sure I've seen one like this before (like months ago), maybe it was 8A.

 

[janb]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Break of journey
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

The internal Knowledge Base (internal.nationalrail.co.uk) says the following,
"A break of journey is permitted on the return portion off [sic] an Off-Peak Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code."

Never mind the "bad eggs", the "good eggs" are confused.

 

[TUC]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

Break of journey
Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

I notice that below the section quoted above it also states
'You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it.'

This seems to imply that some ticket restrictions prevent BoJ at specifc stations along a route whilst being allowed at all other stations. Can anyone give an example of this and the rationale for it?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I notice that below the section quoted above it also states
'You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it.'

This seems to imply that some ticket restrictions prevent BoJ at specifc stations along a route whilst being allowed at all other stations. Can anyone give an example of this and the rationale for it?

I don't think there are any restriction codes whose wording disallow BoJ at one specific station. They most either do or don't disallow BoJ on the outward leg. On the return leg it's always allowed.

 

[transmanche]

I notice that below the section quoted above it also states
'You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it.'

This seems to imply that some ticket restrictions prevent BoJ at specifc stations along a route whilst being allowed at all other stations. Can anyone give an example of this and the rationale for it?

Not at all. It's stating that the starting short/breaking/resumption/ending early of the journey may be restricted - and that any starting short/breaking/resumption/ending early of the journey must be along the route of travel. But it's not stating that particular stations may be restricted.

 

[kieron]

I notice that below the section quoted above it also states
'You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel on Off-Peak tickets unless the ticket restriction for the journey you are making does not allow it.'

This seems to imply that some ticket restrictions prevent BoJ at specifc stations along a route whilst being allowed at all other stations. Can anyone give an example of this and the rationale for it?

Some off peak day tickets from Heyford or Tackley (such as Tackley-Stratford International) use the O7 restriction, for which the outward restriction reads:

Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 10:00, except:

06:44 from Heyford
06:49 from Tackley
06:55 from Heyford
06:59 from Tackley

Not valid for change of trains or break of journey between Heyford / Tackley and London Paddington. Boarding anywhere other than Heyford or Tackley with tickets from Heyford or Tackley is not permitted on this service.

07:40 from Heyford
07:44 from Tackley

Not valid for change of trains or break of journey between Heyford / Tackley and London Paddington, except for the purpose of making connections to London Paddington. Boarding anywhere other than Heyford or Tackley with tickets from Heyford or Tackley is not permitted on this service.]

Needless to say, none of the services quoted actually run at the moment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW have them all over their territory. They seem to be one of the last remaining TOCs who continue to use 8A in any widespread fashion. There are of course other TOCs with completely or effectively unrestricted SVRs but 8A is an 'endangered' species!

They are quite recent on ATW, but are now widespread for longer journeys.
I suspect it is to counter split-ticketing, while not enforcing peak restrictions (which their CDRs now do).

 

[MotCO]

I've always been bemused by the option to break a journey. Most people I would suspect would travel A>B and then B>A;why would anyone want to go A>B but on the way back break their journey? I would have thought it more likely to want to break on both the outward and return journeys, or not at all.

What is the rationale for this? Are many people are aware of this option?

 

[Shell]

What is the rationale for this? Are many people are aware of this option?

Recently, I visited Edinburgh from Aberdeen, and was invited to visit a friend in Dundee on my way back. I had an off-peak return, so I could do that without buying another ticket and wasting half of my return portion.

I think that generally, when you buy an open return, you have a good idea of when and where you're going, but a more flexible idea of when you're planning on returning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are quite recent on ATW, but are now widespread for longer journeys.
I suspect it is to counter split-ticketing, while not enforcing peak restrictions (which their CDRs now do).

It doesn’t prevent splitting.

 

[infobleep]

Sometimes I have an idea of what I want to do and that includes wishing to break my journey on the way out and not the return.

 

[kieron]

ATW have them all over their territory. They seem to be one of the last remaining TOCs who continue to use 8A in any widespread fashion. There are of course other TOCs with completely or effectively unrestricted SVRs but 8A is an 'endangered' species!

The other TOC which uses 8A restrictions a lot is SWR. Oddly, they only use them for heavily restricted weekend super off-peak tickets, where the code is used interchangeably with XA. For instance, Bournemouth-London Terminals has XA for first class tickets, 8A for standard.

I've always been bemused by the option to break a journey. Most people I would suspect would travel A>B and then B>A;why would anyone want to go A>B but on the way back break their journey? I would have thought it more likely to want to break on both the outward and return journeys, or not at all.

What is the rationale for this? Are many people are aware of this option?

A break on the return journey may be more appealing to people as you can spread the return journey over several days, whereas the outward one is more constrained. Personally, one thing I sometimes do is to travel from or to different stations in each direction to take account of the train frequency on different lines. The 8A code sometimes supports what I wish to do, and sometimes doesn't.

 

[Furrball]

So where does this stand now? The National Rail site has been amended to remove the reference to all Off Peak returns having Break of Journey validity and VTWC fares carry the code 3A which prohibits Break of Journey, so a massive change of policy. I assume to prevent bypassing of certain peak fares by using off peak returns in reverse?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So where does this stand now? The National Rail site has been amended to remove the reference to all Off Peak returns having Break of Journey validity and VTWC fares carry the code 3A which prohibits Break of Journey, so a massive change of policy. I assume to prevent bypassing of certain peak fares by using off peak returns in reverse?

Nope, it's just plain wrong. This is the correct wording of 3A, note where the "no BoJ" is positioned. They've just screwed it up while trying to make it look more readable.

Restriction Code: 3A

The following details applies
to current travel only.

APPLICABLE DAYS

Mondays to Fridays

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
arrive:
London Euston after 04:29 and
before 10:05;
Watford Junction after 04:29
and before 10:20;
Milton Keynes Central after
04:29 and before 10:20.

Valid on all Caledonian
Sleeper services (with
supplement).

Break of Journey not allowed
except to change trains.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and
before 09:05;
Watford Junction after 04:29
and before 09:00;
Milton Keynes Central after
04:29 and before 09:00.

Valid on all Caledonian
Sleeper services (with
supplement).

NOTES

For Off-Peak journeys via
Hereford, Oxford & Newport see
restriction code GK.

For Super Off-Peak journeys
via Hereford, Oxford & Newport
see restriction code 2Q.

For journeys via Nottingham,
see restriction code CG.

For journeys to/via London
Kings Cross and Stevenage, see
restriction code 1K.

For journeys to/via London St
Pancras International, see
restriction code 7E.

SEASONAL VARIATIONS

Restrictions are lifted from
midday on Friday 22nd December
until Monday 1st January
(inclusive)

For full restriction details
and all T&Cs, see
www.nationalrail.co.uk

Powered by National Rail
Enquiries

 

[Furrball]

Nope, it's just plain wrong. This is the correct wording of 3A, note where the "no BoJ" is positioned. They've just screwed it up while trying to make it look more readable.

Well speaking with NRE they are adamant that what is written regarding restriction 3A is correct! Where on earth does this leave the travelling public?!?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well speaking with NRE they are adamant that what is written regarding restriction 3A is correct! Where on earth does this leave the travelling public?!?

Confused, as usual.

<sigh>

This is not a new problem, by the way - 8A has been similarly wrong for as long as the restrictions have been on there.

 

[Furrball]

Well at least VTWC still show the break of journey as being permitted...!

From a test booking for off peak return

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is permitted on the return direction of Off-Peak tickets, and is generally permitted on the outward direction unless prohibited for the journey that you are making. If you intend to break your outward journey, please contact us to check if it is permitted. You can always break your journey where necessary to change train.

 

[janb]

This is not a new problem, by the way - 8A has been similarly wrong for as long as the restrictions have been on there.

No, 8A used to have the BoJ restriction confined to the outward journey (unless you are saying that is what was wrong)
https://web.archive.org/web/20170629135151/www.nationalrail.co.uk/8a

As I say recent changes were made in April. Frustatingly, if it is in error NRE have not corrected this so that the wording mirrors for example the 2U restriction. If it is a conscious decision it is incumbent on RDG/Virgin to publicise it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, 8A used to have the BoJ restriction confined to the outward journey (unless you are saying that is what was wrong)
https://web.archive.org/web/20170629135151/www.nationalrail.co.uk/8a

As I say recent changes were made in April. Frustatingly, if it is in error NRE have not corrected this so that the wording mirrors for example the 2U restriction. If it is a conscious decision it is incumbent on RDG/Virgin to publicise it.

8A has absolutely been wrong longer back than April 2018; there was a thread discussing it on here. Sadly the Wayback Machine hasn't indexed anything since June last year. The thing that is wrong is it saying BoJ is banned on both legs; this would AIUI be a breach of the TSA (@yorkie can you confirm this?)

It looks to me like they moved at some point from one CMS to another (the point I think when /planmyjourney stopped giving you the planner) - they probably broke it at that point.

It is absolutely not a wilful change; you can clearly see the correct wording for 3A (8A is the same) from the January fares manual for this year quoted above, obtained from brfares.com. That's the version rail staff will get in The Manual or whatever it's called now.

 

[Joe Paxton]

8A has absolutely been wrong longer back than April 2018; there was a thread discussing it on here. Sadly the Wayback Machine hasn't indexed anything since June last year. The thing that is wrong is it saying BoJ is banned on both legs; this would AIUI be a breach of the TSA (@yorkie can you confirm this?)
...

For what it's worth, the wording on this NRE webpage - that is, the T&Cs for (Super) Off-Peak tickets - has changed in the last few days.

Under the 'Break of journey' heading, the page used to say (this is from 14 May 2018):

Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.

The page now says this (as at 18 May '18):

Break of journey is allowed on the outward and return portions of Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's validity code.

The delete key has been at work at NRE HQ.