89001 'Avocet' to return?

[DarloRich]

Apart from a number painted in the cab and the paperwork, what stops a 90 reaching 120/125mph?

:roll: what stops my 1ltr SEAT outperforming a Ferrari?

You will have task an engineer but i would assume power of the engines, gearing, aerodynamic performance, resistance, bogie/wheelset type etc.

Now another question could be could they be easily uprated

 

[Ploughman]

I suppose the option of using a Eurostar set is out of the question now?
They used to be a regular on the KC - Leeds and a lot of work was done to improve clearances for the sets.

 

[DXMachina]

Eurostars can only do 110 on the ECML as their HS1-compliant pantographs would rip the catenary apart otherwise.

 

[DarloRich]

I suppose the option of using a Eurostar set is out of the question now?
They used to be a regular on the KC - Leeds and a lot of work was done to improve clearances for the sets.

worked to York as well. I think they are all spoken for now. Would love another ride on one on the ECML. Mind Tornado might be available

 

[D365]

How about the 6 A4s that are meeting up again next year for the 75th, must try to get up to York then

 

[DarloRich]

How about the 6 A4s that are meeting up again next year for the 75th, must try to get up to York then

only 3 work though! We could chuck in a couple of Deltics just to give some flexibility in the fleet!

 

[D365]

For the ultimate in traction variety, let's use Tornado, Flying Scotsman, the working A4s and Deltics alongside IC125s, IC225s, 89, a few 90s and some 373s.

 

[Eagle]

I suppose the option of using a Eurostar set is out of the question now? They used to be a regular on the KC - Leeds and a lot of work was done to improve clearances for the sets.

Those sets (known in Britain as 373/2s) are all now used on SNCF domestic highspeed services, as I recall.

 

[HSTEd]

Eurostars can only do 110 on the ECML as their HS1-compliant pantographs would rip the catenary apart otherwise.

This speed limit was actually lifted on the southern ECML towards the end of the "White Rose" service as I understand it.

 

[Liam]

I think a 67 hauling +9/10 would have pretty terrible acceleration so would really not be at all ideal what with the timetabling being so tight on EC services these days. Also unless you borrow some of the 67s that have been modified to work with DVTs (and aren't they nearly all accounted for elsewhere?) then you're going to be doing a lot of running around adding time and complications to the service.

Also I've always been under the impression that 67s are 125mph locos in name only and that there are problems with them going much above 100mph, though I'm not sure what the problem is so that might just be me picking up on a 'railway myth'.

Is it possible to stick a 67 at each end and operate in push-pull? Might give it better acceleration, then if possible power one loco down as the train reaches 125mph. Or is this to complicated?

 

[deltic1989]

Is it possible to stick a 67 at each end and operate in push-pull? Might give it better acceleration, then if possible power one loco down as the train reaches 125mph. Or is this to complicated?

I expect the problem with that would be the powering up and down of the rear loco. I can't see that being very economical, with there being a dead loco that has to be towed as well as the train at a sustained high speed fuel economy may suffer to some degree.

If there are any availability problems with 91's then I echo the call for Deltics to be brought back to cover, but they may fall foul of the 125 mph rule, being 100 mph locos.

 

[route:oxford]

Is it possible to stick a 67 at each end and operate in push-pull? Might give it better acceleration, then if possible power one loco down as the train reaches 125mph. Or is this to complicated?

Potentially, yes.

But perhaps a pair of brand new Vossloh UKLIGHT Class 68 topping and tailing, in the 200kph variant of course, instead?

http://www.vossloh-innotrans.com/media/downloads/pdfs/vrv/Vossloh_UKLIGHT_us.pdf

(link copied from the original post of 159220)

 

[jopsuk]

Is it possible to stick a 67 at each end and operate in push-pull? Might give it better acceleration, then if possible power one loco down as the train reaches 125mph. Or is this to complicated?

You'd need to through-wire them for AAR multiple working- the only mark 3s currently so fitted are in use by Chiltern/soon to be in use by ATW.

 

[sprinterguy]

You'd need to through-wire them for AAR multiple working- the only mark 3s currently so fitted are in use by Chiltern/soon to be in use by ATW.

I didn't think that the carriage wiring needed to be altered to allow push-pull working with class 67s? I was under the impression that it was just the DVTs that needed major alterations to their multiple working. I wasn't aware that the wiring on the hotch-potch collection of mark 3s used on the Banbury commuter rake had been altered, for starters.

 

[captainbigun]

The Chiltern sets are indeed through wired with AAR multi and the DVTs have been modified to include an AAR interface.

As for the 90s, the software limits their top speed to 110. Previous use on the EC has seen them oversped when shoving as this is controlled by the DVT - not good for the loco, or the loco's owner. For permanent use at 125 you would need to re-gear as a minimum, but then you would be compromised on tractive effort. Not likely to happen in my lifetime.

The 89 includes all of the interfaces to work with a Mk4 set at 125, so it's the only option in that respect. It's also the only option for 125mph operation with a Mk3 set, should one be found.

67s are definitely out, too slow and not passed for 125mph before you get into a catelogue of other issues.

 

[D365]

Has 89001 retained all of the Mk4 equipment? And I thought that the 67s can/do run to 125mph...

 

[ainsworth74]

And I thought that the 67s can/do run to 125mph...

As I said above that's a theoretical maximum, I'm not convinced they've ever done it anywhere other than in testing.

 

[ash39]

Saw 89001 at Barrow Hill yesterday. Think it's been back in Intercity Executive livery for some time as it's showing serious signs of fading/rusting. I would expect it to be repainted if it was to be reinstated again.

As much as I'd love to see it, I can't envisige it happening. It would be a serious amount of expense and risk for essentially a cover locomotive for 91's?

 

[Whistler40145]

It is unfortunate that Class 92s don't have a Max Speed of 125 mph, TDM equipment & modified ETH equipment for use with Mk 3 & Mk 4 stock.

 

[RPM]

The issue surely is the cost/practicality of driver training for class 89. There can't be that many EC drivers who retain the traction knowledge and those that do will want a refresher. Sounds like a rostering nightmare.

 

[deltic1989]

Potentially, yes.

But perhaps a pair of brand new Vossloh UKLIGHT Class 68 topping and tailing, in the 200kph variant of course, instead?

http://www.vossloh-innotrans.com/media/downloads/pdfs/vrv/Vossloh_UKLIGHT_us.pdf

(link copied from the original post of 159220)

That does look very nice.

 

[jopsuk]

It is unfortunate that Class 92s don't have a Max Speed of 125 mph, TDM equipment & modified ETH equipment for use with Mk 3 & Mk 4 stock.

You might as well say that it is a shame that class 20s can't haul a fully loaded coal train up Shap at 200mph...

In more grounded discussions- TDM presumably the traction knowledge problems would be similar for hiring a 90?

 

[Whistler40145]

I see what you mean.

 

[DXMachina]

Come to think of it if you put a pair of DVTs on either end of 89001+mk4s, anyone who could drive a 91 could drive it....

Edit - as pointed out by those who know, this wouldn't do

 

[jopsuk]

Surely it isn't that simple? Surely the driver would still need tractiona knowledge for the loco providing the power?

 

[BestWestern]

Surely it isn't that simple? Surely the driver would still need tractiona knowledge for the loco providing the power?

Yes. In the event of a locomotive failure the Driver would need to be competent to assess the fault. There *may* be a way around this, if a competent Driver or Technician was to be provided to ride with the loco at all times, though I'm unsure of the exact legalities of that. If it was legal then it could perhaps be negotiated into the lease agreement that the required personnel would be provided along with the loco. Some level of training would still be needed regardless though, as any Driver would obviously need to be aware of the basic handling characteristics of his locomotive.

Certainly it's perfectly normal for trains to be 'piloted' over a route the initial Driver does not sign, by a second Driver who does sign it. In turn, that second Driver does not need to sign the traction, he simply advises the first of what is happening route-wise. Whether the same could be worked in the reverse way I don't know, I would think probably not but perhaps our qualified Drivers could share their thoughts on that?

A simpler solution might be to allocate the 89 one set turn of duty, and have a small Link containing competent Drivers.

 

[Aictos]

GNER used to regularly hire a class 90 from EWS on a daily basis on a London - Leeds diagram to cover for insufficient class 91s. In fact, one class 90, 90024, was even painted into GNER livery for this duty, although it very rarely actually appeared on it!

Didn't GNER's MD at the time insist it was only intended for GNER services and kicked up a stink if it was elsewhere on freights?

 

[sprinterguy]

Didn't GNER's MD at the time insist it was only intended for GNER services and kicked up a stink if it was elsewhere on freights?

Must have spent a lot of time complaining if that was the case, I wouldn’t be surprised if it spent more time hired out to Virgin West Coast than it did powering GNER services.

I recall it spending the majority of its time on mail and parcels traffic, mind...

 

[ryan125hst]

Are East Coast forming a Mark 3 loco hauled set? I was looking on Abrail Databases last night and found that a few Mark 3 loco hauled coaches are labeled: "to be refurbished for East Coast".

They are defiantly loco hauled coaches as they are TOPS code AC2G. The HST vehicles are labeled as GH2G. From their coach codes page:
AC Open 2+2 Seating - gangwayed
2 Standard (formerly Second)
G Mark 3/3a

They are also getting Mark 3 First Opens.

Does anyone know what is going on?

 

[Harbon 1]

Not to burst anyone's bubble, but we asked both of the members of the AC Loco group looking after the Class 89 exhibit yesterday, and they say not to believe it...