80x to replace Mk4s on TfW?

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that will stay a rumour. Why would TfW order brand new 140mph capable trains when the only mileage that exceeds 100mph is Sandbach - Cheadle Hulme? Particularly given that Hitachi isn't exactly a cheap supplier to order from - weren't they pricing off orders fairly recently? I suspect that the advantages of fleet commonality would mean more 197s to replace the Mk4s. If electrification in North Wales becomes a serious consideration then I'd expect some kind of regional express bimode unit (FLIRT?) which would then allow 197s to be cascaded onto the Marches and Pembrokeshire branches.

Would they necessarily be new build? It's of note that post Route Upgrade TPE will be in the market for new units for a mostly electrified future - could theirs perhaps become available displaced by new EMUs?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Would they necessarily be new build? It's of note that post Route Upgrade TPE will be in the market for new units for a mostly electrified future - could theirs perhaps become available displaced by new EMUs?

Unless Hull and Scarbrough are getting wires (which I don't believe they are), there will still be plenty of need for bi-modes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless Hull and Scarbrough are getting wires (which I don't believe they are), there will still be plenty of need for bi-modes.

I would be unsurprised to see Scarborough become a Northern service to somewhere else (e.g. an extension of the Blackpool-York); a second Liverpool-Newcastle express per hour would be of a lot more value.

Hull, I have no idea Might be short enough off the wires to use batteries?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Hull, I have no idea Might be short enough off the wires to use batteries?

Maybe, but the 802s can be refit with batteries, rather than needing new stock for it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Would they necessarily be new build? It's of note that post Route Upgrade TPE will be in the market for new units for a mostly electrified future - could theirs perhaps become available displaced by new EMUs?

Wouldn't they just use 802s instead of going through the expense of new EMUs for no benefit

 

[Richard123]

The 802s are very expensive compared to a straight electric.

Even comparing IEPs like for like, in the IEP contract I believe the bi-mode IEPs were 25% more expensive than the electrics, and higher track access charges also

 

[Krokodil]

Would they necessarily be new build? It's of note that post Route Upgrade TPE will be in the market for new units for a mostly electrified future - could theirs perhaps become available displaced by new EMUs?

They'd be looking to replace the 185s, I doubt that the 802s will be leaving - more likely that they'd be cascaded onto former 185 routes if pure EMUs take over Liverpool-Newcastle.

 

[cactustwirly]

The 802s are very expensive compared to a straight electric.

Even comparing IEPs like for like, in the IEP contract I believe the bi-mode IEPs were 25% more expensive than the electrics, and higher track access charges also

They already have them!
They're traditionally leased not part of the IEP contract so won't be as expensive as the IEPs

 

[stevieinselby]

The 802s are very expensive compared to a straight electric.

The current plans are to only electrify the TransPennine core, and maybe Hull if we're lucky. That means that although the Newcastle trains can be switched from 802 to EMU, the Teesside, Scarborough and probably Hull trains will want to be switched from 185 to BMU. The logical choice would be to move the 802s onto the Teesside, Scarborough and Hull services, and get new EMUs for the Newcastle services (including the Newcastle to Scotland route).

 

[AndrewE]

The current plans are to only electrify the TransPennine core...

Have we even had confirmation of that? There is a deafening silence about Standedge tunnel, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have we even had confirmation of that? There is a deafening silence about Standedge tunnel, for example.

Potentially discontinuous electrification? Which would require new battery units...

I can't recall anything concrete but talk has generally been that TPE would be getting new units which would potentially free up their 802s.

 

[Charlie978]

I’m certain that the new TPE order is for units with capabilities for running away from wires in service - not just slow speed depot or rescue work.

So that would free up 802s, depending on the order size.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have we even had confirmation of that? There is a deafening silence about Standedge tunnel, for example.

Design work is ongoing for Standedge electrification.
What there isn't yet is funding approval to deliver it (which will have to wait until NR have finished the design and established the costs and options).
Some route work is essential anyway (resignalling on the west side, gauge enhancement and upgrading of stations).

 

[AndrewE]

Design work is ongoing for Standedge electrification.
What there isn't yet is funding approval to deliver it (which will have to wait until NR have finished the design and established the costs and options).
Some route work is essential anyway (resignalling on the west side, gauge enhancement and upgrading of stations).

That is very good to hear, thank you. I'm desperate to see the end of the acid gas pollution in Standedge tunnel. Luckily I hardly have to go through it at all nowadays, but it's still a trial, inhaler at the ready.

(and for people who say that exhaust emission controls and modern catalysts etc have dealt with the problem, I can tell you that they certainly haven't. )

 

[trawler]

The plan appears quite clear. Transpennine is set to introduce 29 new bi-mode train units from 2029, with an option for 26 more to compliment the 19 existing 802 and the 12 397 plus the 185.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I understand it, Huddersfield-Stalybridge electrification, when auuthorised, will be a CP8 project (2029-34).
So TPE will need bi-modes until then at least.
As for cascading 802s to TfW, with its mostly 90mph diesel routes, it doesn't seem sensible.
I'd have thought XC was a more appropriate destination with more 125mph electric mileage.

 

[Topological]

Cascaded 80x certainly fit the cast off English Intercity stock bill for TfW. Mk3s, Mk4s and then 2nd hand 80x would work. However, it would seem a shame to skip the Voyagers

The only logical thing would be for 197s to replace Mk4s so that the whole fleet was flexible. They could put the first class in the same carriage as the accessible toilet if first class is insisted upon.

All that said, there does not seem to be much in this thread.

 

[RailWonderer]

Siemens could build the Mireo in Goole for TPE as a low floor bi or tri-mode unit. I had one on the NEB operated RB12 outside Berlin the other day and they are speedy. Then TPE's 185s could go to SWR, Chiltern, GWR or even Chiltern to replace their Sprinters and Turbos.

 

[Snow1964]

As I understand it, Huddersfield-Stalybridge electrification, when auuthorised, will be a CP8 project (2029-34).
So TPE will need bi-modes until then at least.
As for cascading 802s to TfW, with its mostly 90mph diesel routes, it doesn't seem sensible.
I'd have thought XC was a more appropriate destination with more electric mileage.

Yes, XC would be better.

It is questionable if TfW 197s are best option either (and could be argued that coupled DMUs are not good for any busy or long regional route.

The only logical thing would be for 197s to replace Mk4s so that the whole fleet was flexible. They could put the first class in the same carriage as the accessible toilet if first class is insisted upon.

You could just as easily say that Cardiff-Manchester, Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Plymouth, Cardiff-Nottingham should all use a common type of stock, they are all long regional, quasi-intercity type services.

I know these currently have mish-mash of operators and types of stock. But it might be better putting the 197s on busier services with more stops than stretching them thinly around Wales, where they can't cope without crowding. Then backfilling the long routes and mk4 routes with something more suitable.

But, again it comes back to needing a regional train as highest priority, not 140mph capable trains, or commuter EMUs. A 100mph (maybe 110mph on electric) Bimode, with bodyshell similar to a 444 or 197 etc and seats suitable for 3+ hours in comfort.

Need to get away from idea can only have Intercity style or one/two third doors with nothing in between, and bodging one of these extremes to poorly suit long routes.

 

[Topological]

Yes, XC would be better.

It is questionable if TfW 197s are best option either (and could be argued that coupled DMUs are not good for any busy or long regional route.


You could just as easily say that Cardiff-Manchester, Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Plymouth, Cardiff-Nottingham should all use a common type of stock, they are all long regional, quasi-intercity type services.

I know these currently have mish-mash of operators and types of stock. But it might be better putting the 197s on busier services with more stops than stretching them thinly around Wales, where they can't cope without crowding. Then backfilling the long routes and mk4 routes with something more suitable.

But, again it comes back to needing a regional train as highest priority, not 140mph capable trains, or commuter EMUs. A 100mph (maybe 110mph on electric) Bimode, with bodyshell similar to a 444 or 197 etc and seats suitable for 3+ hours in comfort.

Need to get away from idea can only have Intercity style or one/two third doors with nothing in between, and bodging one of these extremes to poorly suit long routes.

To be fair, they could all use 197s with no problems.

The 197 is the best train we have serving Cardiff to Manchester. Accelerates well, dwells are short and there is no real section that needs 80x type performance.

 

[Snow1964]

To be fair, they could all use 197s with no problems.

The 197 is the best train we have serving Cardiff to Manchester. Accelerates well, dwells are short and there is no real section that needs 80x type performance.

Unless they order more 197s (and ordering more diesel only trains might not happen), then might not be enough 197s if usage in Wales continues to grow.

ORR is releasing new annual station usage figures on Thursday morning, so should be able to look at change, and check ranking of all the 197 served stations, out of the about 2500 stations nationally

 

[Topological]

Unless they order more 197s (and ordering more diesel only trains might not happen), then might not be enough 197s if usage in Wales continues to grow.

ORR is releasing new annual station usage figures on Thursday morning, so should be able to look at change, and check ranking of all the 197 served stations, out of the about 2500 stations nationally

CAF really need to make a bimode/battery version. Though most of the lines TfW might run longer distance services on would be unlikely to have even discontinous electrification.

Otherwise, a similar unit for all of the long-distance Marches / North Wales/ Portsmouth / South West would be useful. However, that would need joining up between the GWR order and TfW.

Plenty of routes that 197s from the Marches / North Wales could go to that also wont see electrification.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I would be unsurprised to see Scarborough become a Northern service to somewhere else (e.g. an extension of the Blackpool-York); a second Liverpool-Newcastle express per hour would be of a lot more value.

Hull, I have no idea Might be short enough off the wires to use batteries?

I believe Blackpool to York did use to extend to / from Scarborough in Arriva Trans Northern days, at least on Sundays? A train Mum and I caught back in August 2004 from Preston to Blackpool North around 18:50 (after a Voyager from Oxford) had come from Scarborough.

 

[deltic08]

CAF really need to make a bimode/battery version. Though most of the lines TfW might run longer distance services on would be unlikely to have even discontinous electrification.

Otherwise, a similar unit for all of the long-distance Marches / North Wales/ Portsmouth / South West would be useful. However, that would need joining up between the GWR order and TfW.

Plenty of routes that 197s from the Marches / North Wales could go to that also wont see electrification.

If and when electrification is completed to Bristol via Chippenham and Parkway, Cardiff-Portsmouth trains need to be trimode. AC from Cardiff to east of Bath, battery to Eastleigh and 750 DC to Portsmouth. If the battery part is too far, then wire to Trowbridge or Westbury.
Cardiff-Plymouth-Penzance will need to be bimode as Cardiff-Weston will be wired eventually if not to Exeter.
Cardiff-Manchester is already wired Cardiff-Newport and Crewe to Manchester so bimodes would be needed there.
If another tranche of 197s is needed then they should be bi/trimodes.

 

[Krokodil]

CAF really need to make a bimode/battery version. Though most of the lines TfW might run longer distance services on would be unlikely to have even discontinous electrification.

You'd use bimode units on the routes that do have a greater proportion of electrified mileage and cascade 197s from those routes to the Marches.

 

[Charlie978]

Otherwise, a similar unit for all of the long-distance Marches / North Wales/ Portsmouth / South West would be useful. However, that would need joining up between the GWR order and TfW.

I agree that under GBR there needs to be a drive to procure a fairly standard regional express type unit to operate these services, and others like Liverpool to Norwich. However when considering timelines that tender/development process needs to start soon to replace 15x and 16x on these sorts of routes and not have some young and redundant units.

 

[Snow1964]

I agree that under GBR there needs to be a drive to procure a fairly standard regional express type unit to operate these services, and others like Liverpool to Norwich. However when considering timelines that tender/development process needs to start soon to replace 15x and 16x on these sorts of routes and not have some young and redundant units.

It is the one type GBR could order straight away, say 70-100 5car bimode regional units (not express IETs), and work out later where best to allocate them. (there are around 130 longer regional trains operated by 158, 166, 170 and other stock etc)

The 170s could replace older stock eg 156s, actually there could be a big cascade (but discussing that would be better in its own speculative thread)

Any spare 80x would almost certainly be better replacing XC voyagers that operate of part electrified routes, (even better just replace the 220 driving cars of 4car units, with spare intermediate vehicles reformed to make other units upto 6 cars)

 

[Caaardiff]

Unless they order more 197s (and ordering more diesel only trains might not happen), then might not be enough 197s if usage in Wales continues to grow.

ORR is releasing new annual station usage figures on Thursday morning, so should be able to look at change, and check ranking of all the 197 served stations, out of the about 2500 stations nationally

It will be interesting to see the results of TFW stations. After years of no investment and generally poor customer perception, to be fair to TFW they are certainly turning it around. There has certainly been a noticeable shift in peoples view of TFW and increased footfall across many routes.

It goes back to the age old discussion of if just 2 and 3 car 197's were suitable. On some routes 2 cars are sufficient but even the quieter branches of West Wales and local South Wales routes can struggle at times with a 2 car. With TFW and Welsh Government plan to increase use of public transport could increase passenger numbers even further could mean even the current capacity plans aren't sufficient.

By ordering a new fleet to replace the Mk4's, it's TFW's opportunity to provide a consistent South Wales - Manchester service, which could cascade 197's to other routes and capacity increases elsewhere. North Wales - Manchester seems to be short changed with mostly just 3 car services, as well as the Cambrian seeing fewer seats that the 158's and the only increases are the planned extra Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services.
It also means the chance to move 197's to HOWL and even Bidston if 777's never happen.

CAF Chester also doesn't have the capacity for more 197's. Under the current contract they are the only Depot to do maintenance on them. At least with a new order, even if it's another CAF type, the contract can be drawn up to work better for TFW and CAF.

 

[chrisjo]

CAF Chester also doesn't have the capacity for more 197's

The CAF capacity at Chester problem is not down to the number of 197's in service per se. It's the number of broken ones at any one time that's the issue.

 

[Krokodil]

The CAF capacity at Chester problem is not down to the number of 197's in service per se. It's the number of broken ones at any one time that's the issue.

That doesn't help, but Chester was never going to be able to cope with what the original plans envisaged anyway. Stabling-wise, the plans were going to use the depot, the whole of Middle Yard, and every bay platform. No account taken of the fact that Network Rail test trains frequently stable in Middle Yard, that Northern stables units at Chester etc. In 175 days the depot only had one vacant slot per night. The 197 fleet is bigger than the combined 175 and 158 fleet (Machynlleth isn't awash with empty sidings either).