8 carriage trains

[Steveo77]

apologies if I am being a bit naive here but can someone please explain to me why Southern trains are able to run 10 carriage trains all the way down from Victoria to Dorking whilst South West trains can only run 8 carriage trains from Waterloo to Dorking? The 10 carriage trains are rarely full (as it is a slower service) but the 8 carraige trains are overcrowded (as it is the faster service which therefore people want to use!)

My guess is that the platforms are too short at Waterloo but if that is the case can anything be doe about that? 8 carriage trains are increasingly not going to be practicial during peak times into London and are just going to result in more and more delays as people attempt to board.

 

[samuelmorris]

Not an expert on this topic and I imagine someone more knowledgable than me will be along shortly but it's probably as much that they can't afford to run 12-car trains, either for not having enough units to support it, or platforms not being long enough. The recently delivered 377/6 units Southern use are 5 carriages in length allowing to run 10-car sets easily. South West are taking delivery of extra units (2-car 456s to add to 8-car pairs of 455s to make 10) and converting existing ones (4-car 458/0 to 5-car 458/5) to achieve this, but both these projects are rather behind schedule.

 

[joeykins82]

There's an extensive programme of platform lengthening underway for SWT metro services, with the intention being that everything should be capable of taking a 200m train (using ASDO [Automated Selective Door Opening] where lengthening is completely impractical). It's not an overnight job though, as you say there are platforms at Waterloo that need modification. It's partly why the Waterloo International platforms are being brought back in to service; there'll be sufficient platforms in service to lengthen the 160m platforms without causing total chaos.

One assumes that the 24 class 456 units will be used to lengthen some of the SWT peaks to 10 car once all of the infrastructure works are done, but that a wider rolling stock programme will be delivered by the new franchise holder. By that time there should be more clarity on whether there'll be a significant transfer of metro services to London Overground and/or Crossrail 2.

 

[swt_passenger]

Almost all the platforms on the SWT route to/from Dorking are supposedly capable of holding 10 car trains, the infrastructure work is nearly complete (according to NR) except maybe Raynes Park? The single main issue is the lack of 10 car terminating platforms off the main slows at Waterloo, work here is supposed to start this year. However the initial solution of adding a single 456 to an 8 car 455 is not progressing at the original planned speed either. (This was aimed at running a few 10 car trains into P5 or P6 at Waterloo, probably from Guildford - but not from Dorking!)

The ASDO system is not directly relevant to the Dorking route itself, because the rolling stock they intend to use here (455+455+456) cannot economically be fitted with ASDO. Hence the main suburban side platforms are all being lengthened for ten car, unlike the quiet stations towards Windsor and Weybridge that will use ASDO (with 458/5s initially - another late running project).

At the same time though, ASDO balises are being fitted right across the entire SWT route for use by suitable stock (if they happen to run it on the route), once they get the ASDO to work. That all seems to have gone quiet as well...

 

[Deepgreen]

At Waterloo, it is platforms 1-4 that are the main problem at present, as they can only accommodate 8 car trains. They are to be rebuilt shortly to allow 10 car trains (455+455+456) to use them.

 

[swt_passenger]

At Waterloo, it is platforms 1-4 that are the main problem at present, as they can only accommodate 8 car trains. They are to be rebuilt shortly to allow 10 car trains (455+455+456) to use them.

...the usual 'indicative dates' [NR speak for wild guesses?] in the CP5 plan giving a fairly relaxed timetable of start July 2015 and finish May 2017.

So another 2 and a half years of fiddling about with gradual changes, even when all the 456s become available for use...

 

[starrymarkb]

Plus there will be 10 car Cl 707s (Desiro City) arriving in 2017 for SWT Metro services.

But as mentioned up thread, the suburban platforms at Waterloo can't take more then 8 cars at the moment, I believe the eventual plan is to move the Windsor lines into the former international platforms, then move everything else across and close the short suburban platforms

 

[swt_passenger]

Plus there will be 10 car Cl 707s (Desiro City) arriving in 2017 for SWT Metro services.

But as mentioned up thread, the suburban platforms at Waterloo can't take more then 8 cars at the moment, I believe the eventual plan is to move the Windsor lines into the former international platforms, then move everything else across and close the short suburban platforms

The latest (Sept 14) enhancement plan now has them extending P1 - P4 to ten car and eventually using all the international platforms as well. I reckon that can only be done by fairly drastic remodelling in the throat. Intentions as far as Grip 3 should out by June according to the enhancement plan.

I don't think they ever planned to close all the four platforms though, but a couple of years back they were definitely proposing at least two would close.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

be fitted with ASDO. Hence the main suburban side platforms are all being lengthened for ten car, unlike the quiet stations towards Windsor and Weybridge that will use ASDO (with 458/5s initially - another late running project)...

If the Windsor lines are "quiet" I would hate to see a busy staion in the rush hour!

 

[swt_passenger]

If the Windsor lines are "quiet" I would hate to see a busy staion in the rush hour!

'Quiet enough' to successfully use ASDO is what I probably should have written...

 

[TEW]

The latest (Sept 14) enhancement plan now has them extending P1 - P4 to ten car and eventually using all the international platforms as well. I reckon that can only be done by fairly drastic remodelling in the throat. Intentions as far as Grip 3 should out by June according to the enhancement plan.

I don't think they ever planned to close all the four platforms though, but a couple of years back they were definitely proposing at least two would close.

The need for the extra platforms was explained as being necessary because of the extensive remodelling to the throat, which will make the layout less flexible, and therefore suburban services will need more platforms than at present.

 

[Myb]

Is there any web page with more details of the planned track alterations? Unfortunately, the Network Rail website only mentions new shops inside the station.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any web page with more details of the planned track alterations? Unfortunately, the Network Rail website only mentions new shops inside the station.

Nothing at all public yet, because they haven't got to the single option selection stage, planned for Jun 15 as I posted above.

The single page brief in the CP5 enhancements milestones gives nothing away on the detail.

 

[Class 170101]

The need for the extra platforms was explained as being necessary because of the extensive remodelling to the throat, which will make the layout less flexible, and therefore suburban services will need more platforms than at present.

Indeed the platform re-occupancy requirements increase. So more platforms are required to maintain the current service using platforms 1 to 4.
I understood the idea to be that services would shift over over to the right by four with platforms 1 to 4 closing and making use of the International platforms during construction of platforms 1 - 4 and after that trains shifting back into platforms 1 to 4 plus platforms 5 and 6 thus increasing from four to six platforms the requirement with the remaining (International) platforms being used to increase platform capacity at Waterloo either for nerw services or to improve performance of existing services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed the platform re-occupancy requirements increase. So more platforms are required to maintain the current service using platforms 1 to 4.
I understood the idea to be that services would shift over over to the right by four with platforms 1 to 4 closing and making use of the International platforms during construction of platforms 1 - 4 and after that trains shifting back into platforms 1 to 4 plus platforms 5 and 6 thus increasing from four to six platforms the requirement with the remaining (International) platforms being used to increase platform capacity at Waterloo either for nerw services or to improve performance of existing services.

I wonder if they'll actually do all four at once though, it might need more temporary track alterations than if they do a couple at a time. No doubt it will all become clear later this year.

I did read somewhere (probably in a post here) that the final platform allocations basically had 1-6 for inner suburban, 7-18 for mains, and 19-24 for the existing and proposed Windsor side, but the Windsor side is only due the odd few extra trains, something like 3 or 4 max.

 

[Hophead]

apologies if I am being a bit naive here but can someone please explain to me why Southern trains are able to run 10 carriage trains all the way down from Victoria to Dorking whilst South West trains can only run 8 carriage trains from Waterloo to Dorking? The 10 carriage trains are rarely full (as it is a slower service) but the 8 carraige trains are overcrowded (as it is the faster service which therefore people want to use!)

Southern's trains may be quiet at Dorking but the extra capacity is certainly welcome at the likes of Carshalton, Hackbridge and Balham.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Southern's trains may be quiet at Dorking but the extra capacity is certainly welcome at the likes of Carshalton, Hackbridge and Balham.

And the 10 car trains are used on most Southern Metro routes including Horsham and East Grinstead, so the diagrams are interchangeable.

 

[tsr]

Southern's trains may be quiet at Dorking but the extra capacity is certainly welcome at the likes of Carshalton, Hackbridge and Balham.

Although Hackbridge only has 7 coach platforms.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Almost all the platforms on the SWT route to/from Dorking are supposedly capable of holding 10 car trains, the infrastructure work is nearly complete (according to NR) except maybe Raynes Park?

The extensions at Raynes Park have been completed for a while; maybe the website hasn't been updated to match?

 

[Bigfoot]

The extensions at Raynes Park have been completed for a while; maybe the website hasn't been updated to match?

All platforms planned for extension have been completed.. The last to be completed was Strawberry Hill.

 

[swt_passenger]

The extensions at Raynes Park have been completed for a while; maybe the website hasn't been updated to match?

I was going by the Sept 14 update, which showed Raynes Park yet to be completed. They've never been exactly in line with happenings on the ground though...

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

'Quiet enough' to successfully use ASDO is what I probably should have written...

Sorry I still do not understand. These trains are so full in the mornings that getting passengers on and off causes delays.

I can see that ASDO would, in principle, be a great help as there would be more doors for people to use. I say in principle as people would probably still try and use the same 2 sts of doors!

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry I still do not understand. These trains are so full in the mornings that getting passengers on and off causes delays.

I can see that ASDO would, in principle, be a great help as there would be more doors for people to use. I say in principle as people would probably still try and use the same 2 sts of doors!

Given the large sums spent on platforming lengthening across the rest of the SWT suburban network they must have some evidence to back up their decision not to do anything at certain stations towards Windsor and Weybridge though?

 

[joeykins82]

I thought that the majority of non-lengthened platforms were due to sheer impracticality rather than cost (Feltham for instance)?

 

[NSEFAN]

I thought that the majority of non-lengthened platforms were due to sheer impracticality rather than cost (Feltham for instance)?

Nothing's impractical if you have enough money, though

 

[swt_passenger]

I think there's a difference between locations. Feltham is clearly a location where they want to extend but can't for physical layout reasons, but I don't think that applies to all the stations that are staying with ASDO

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

A few years ago now I remember seeing a planning application attached to a post next to the Feltham level crossing. This stated that an application had been made to permanently close the crossing, but made no mention of why. This was before there was any mention in these forums about longer trains and platform lengthening.

I seem to recall that the planning application was rejected after objections from the local council.

Seeing as the road is only one way anyway I can't see how it would make a big difference. The northbound traffic has to use an alternative route I can't see why southbound traffic could not also use the diversionary route.

As for pedestrian usage for people with prams etc, there is an adjacent footbridge with ramps.

 

[Steveo77]

does anyone know why there are 8 car carriages on one route and then 10 car carriages on another.

I often get a train to Victoria on Southern in the morning peak which is packed because it only has 8 carriages.
However I can get a return in the evening peak which is much more pleasant because it has 10 carriages.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Feltham and Isleworth seem to be a problem...plus a few others,not sure why they haven't done Chertsey at least to 8,but is it needed?
Suppose I can see the problem with Feltham but they successfully did Kingston with a platform spanning the bridge.(For the Isleworh example and perhaps Syon Lane (I know,no bridge,problem.With selective door I've been keeping an eye out at what opens and where due too the odd problem and notice not many stations need doing round the Slowhounds loop.

Also with new trains air con/longer carriages more aircon and computer junk more substations will need to be built.We are forever running on power reduction due to problems with these.