6E26 Knowsley Wilton

[D7666]

I had the delight of close up sight and SMELL of 6E26 today (modus operandi 66652).

Why does 6E26 do that circumnavigation of Manchester, going south from Wigan Wallgate via Warrington blah blah etc skirting round south of Manchester before gaining the Todmorden route ?

Is it just that it is too heavy and sluggish to get through Victoria and up Miles Platting without causing (increased) mayhem to Northern and TPE services?

Or some other reason?

6M16 does come south more directly via Victoria.


(( Typed in the Swan & Railway Wigan as 4S45 hammered north 29 early with (I assume) it's 68 on full bore; from where I am in pub it's been the only audible train. ))

 

[meepmeep]

I think its down to Miles Platting. Its mentioned in this Don Coffey Vid

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes - I think "they" do not want to risk heavy freights getting stuck ascending Miles Platting bank, especially in bad weather. The Liverpool - Drax loaded biomass trains also avoid Miles Platting bank.

 

[Geeves]

Strangely the Dean Lane/Agecroft Binliner fully loaded climbs up the bank back towards Runcorn every night then again I suppose it's only a miserly 1600 ton Vs 2000 for the Knowsley. They did some tests with the Drax I seem to remember but nothing seemed to come of it

 

[Rail Ranger]

Network Rail don't allow banking up Miles Platting bank, which doesn't help. Does the 1998 resignalling even cater for it?

 

[1D53]

From memory the limit for Miles Platting is 1415 tons for a Class 66

 

[Trainrave]

Yes - I think "they" do not want to risk heavy freights getting stuck ascending Miles Platting bank, especially in bad weather. The Liverpool - Drax loaded biomass trains also avoid Miles Platting bank.

Can anyone tell me which route they take?
I’ve seen Drax on the chat moss and also taking brewery curve from Philips Park onto the Calder valley lines but can’t process the route in my head.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The loaded Drax goes Liverpool Docks-Edge Hill (reverse), Rainhill, Earlestown, Warrington BQ, Hartford curve, Northwich, Altrincham, Stockport, Denton, Ashton Moss North Jn, Brewery curve, Calder Valley. The Liverpool bins go from Knowsley via Wigan Wallgate, Wigan Station Junction, WCML, Hartford curve and then the same as the loaded Drax.

 

[Rail Quest]

From memory the limit for Miles Platting is 1415 tons for a Class 66

Does anyone know per chance what the limit is for the 66/6 locos?

 

[Bevan Price]

Can anyone tell me which route they take?
I’ve seen Drax on the chat moss and also taking brewery curve from Philips Park onto the Calder valley lines but can’t process the route in my head.

Ordsall Lane Junction, Castlefield Junction, Piccadilly. I think those would then need to run round & reverse at Stockport, or alternatively run round & reverse at Ashburys. . Others have gone via Guide Bridge, Stalybridge & Huddersfield.

 

[D7666]

Ta all

I had not appreciated the Draxes did the similar avoidance; having thought about it I'D only ever seen their westbound empties in the central Manchester area (and saw one today) .

Good question on 66/6 loads.

I think I have seen some generic 59 66/0 66/6 70 load limits equalised for same conditions somewhere - but these were not for specific locations.

 

[Adrian Barr]

Does anyone know per chance what the limit is for the 66/6 locos?

On paper (loads book) the official max trailing load for a 66/6 climbing Miles Platting bank is 1470. That doesn't seem much higher than the 1415 load for a standard 66, but technically the 1415 load is described as a "66H" loading, with the bog-standard 66 load being 1130. For comparison a class 60 is shown as 1535.

The "H" in 66H is based (as I understand it) along the lines of a "half-hourly rating" for a standard 66 on maximum power for a short amount of time, used for "specially authorised loads" which often involve trial runs to prove performance is acceptable. If anyone has a clearer definition let me know! In the same way, there is a bit of scope for a 66/6 to attempt a trial with a higher weight above the printed max load.

Yes - I think "they" do not want to risk heavy freights getting stuck ascending Miles Platting bank, especially in bad weather.

I've heard there is an intention to trial a full load (likely 1750 tons or so) from Knowsley via Miles Platting with a 66/6, possibly on a strike day when less of the kind of "mayhem" mentioned in the original post is likely to be caused to passenger services. Along with demonstrating the ability to climb the bank without getting stuck, I think Network Rail would want a realistic idea of how long it will take to do it, to assess if paths would be feasible between the passenger trains. Usually they add an extra 66 "dead in tow" to such trials, partly to provide ready-made assistance if the train grinds to a halt, but also to add extra dead weight and demonstrate a bit of a "safety margin" in terms of haulage capability.

 

[D7666]

On paper (loads book) the official max trailing load for a 66/6 climbing Miles Platting bank is 1470. That doesn't seem much higher than the 1415 load for a standard 66, but technically the 1415 load is described as a "66H" loading, with the bog-standard 66 load being 1130. For comparison a class 60 is shown as 1535.

.....................


I've heard there is an intention to trial a full load (likely 1750 tons or so) from Knowsley via Miles Platting with a 66/6, possibly on a strike day when less of the kind of "mayhem" mentioned in the original post is likely to be caused to passenger services. Along with demonstrating the ability to climb the bank without getting stuck, I think Network Rail would want a realistic idea of how long it will take to do it, to assess if paths would be feasible between the passenger trains. Usually they add an extra 66 "dead in tow" to such trials, partly to provide ready-made assistance if the train grinds to a halt, but also to add extra dead weight and demonstrate a bit of a "safety margin" in terms of haulage capability.

Interesting TY.

Another factor may be length limits - when long train starts weaving through complex junctions, the time they take to clear track circuits can be important even if they are moving , and worse if they get a red and stop and the long train is fouling a conflicting move. Even without detailed knowledge it is not hard for me to suggest getting a long train through the Salford Crescent and Deal Street area switches could be as critical as stalling or not up Miles Platting.


Or perhaps they just don't want the stink of Merseyside waste in Manchester; if you recall Wednesday when I encountered 6E26 was that really hot day - the stench from it at Wigan Wallgate where it paused for a couple of minutes was overpowering. All round maybe probably a bigger health hazard than a nuclear flask train.

 

[8A Rail]

I've heard there is an intention to trial a full load (likely 1750 tons or so) from Knowsley via Miles Platting with a 66/6, possibly on a strike day when less of the kind of "mayhem" mentioned in the original post is likely to be caused to passenger services. Along with demonstrating the ability to climb the bank without getting stuck, I think Network Rail would want a realistic idea of how long it will take to do it, to assess if paths would be feasible between the passenger trains. Usually they add an extra 66 "dead in tow" to such trials, partly to provide ready-made assistance if the train grinds to a halt, but also to add extra dead weight and demonstrate a bit of a "safety margin" in terms of haulage capability.

I was under the impression that 66651 had already done this (Miles Platting) about 7/8 weeks ago on 6E16 overnight. May be I misread what I noted.

 

[Rail Quest]

On paper (loads book) the official max trailing load for a 66/6 climbing Miles Platting bank is 1470. That doesn't seem much higher than the 1415 load for a standard 66, but technically the 1415 load is described as a "66H" loading, with the bog-standard 66 load being 1130. For comparison a class 60 is shown as 1535.

The "H" in 66H is based (as I understand it) along the lines of a "half-hourly rating" for a standard 66 on maximum power for a short amount of time, used for "specially authorised loads" which often involve trial runs to prove performance is acceptable. If anyone has a clearer definition let me know! In the same way, there is a bit of scope for a 66/6 to attempt a trial with a higher weight above the printed max load.

Very interesting, many thanks for this info!

 

[childwallblues]

6J46 0850 Peak Forest CEMEX to Salford Hope Street CEMEX and 6H56 1537 return traverse Miles Platting in both directions. RTT shows the train has 2400 tons coming down the bank and 600 tons with the empty wagons going up.

 

[D7666]

6J46 0850 Peak Forest CEMEX to Salford Hope Street CEMEX and 6H56 1537 return traverse Miles Platting in both directions. RTT shows the train has 2400 tons coming down the bank and 600 tons with the empty wagons going up.

Of course, if this were a sensible railway, and we had had a 1950s DC electrification extension, your 2400 t cement train descending Miles Platting would be 2 x 76 (or similar) regenerating back into the 1500 V wires for your 2 x 76 hauled 1750 t rubbish train to ascend.


Ditto via Standedge. Ditto via Summit. And still ditto via Woodhead of course.

OK they'd not be 76s now, in the third 21C decade, maybe some sub version of a 92 or other.

 

[Meerkat]

The loaded Drax goes Liverpool Docks-Edge Hill (reverse), Rainhill, Earlestown, Warrington BQ, Hartford curve, Northwich, Altrincham, Stockport, Denton, Ashton Moss North Jn, Brewery curve, Calder Valley. The Liverpool bins go from Knowsley via Wigan Wallgate, Wigan Station Junction, WCML, Hartford curve and then the same as the loaded Drax.

Why would it reverse at Edge Hill - didnt they build a north to east chord to end having to reverse?

 

[8A Rail]

Why would it reverse at Edge Hill - didnt they build a north to east chord to end having to reverse?

I think he meant 'Tuebrook Sidings' as the outward train on the majority of occasions does reverse there as these days, the loaded train is top and tailed on the Bootle branch with the 'train loco' on the tail end when leaving the docks. This means when arrive at Tuebrook Sidings, the drag loco (ie Class 69) detaches and then Biomass train is ready and proceeds forward to Drax. Nowadays because of this arrangement and especially no Class 60's on the Drax trains anymore, the biomass trains do not need to use the Olive Mount Chord direct to the L&M line anymore.

 

[Adrian Barr]

I was under the impression that 66651 had already done this (Miles Platting) about 7/8 weeks ago on 6E16 overnight.

Yes and no... there was a planned trial on 9th May (which was a strike day on Northern) when it ran as 6Z16 via Miles Platting. However, due to issues at the Knowsley terminal the train wasn't fully loaded, and it ended up being well within the existing weight limit for Miles Platting. I don't think there's been a repeat attempt at the trial since then, but I assume it will happen whenever the stars (or the bins) align.

 

[Meerkat]

I think he meant 'Tuebrook Sidings' as the outward train on the majority of occasions does reverse there as these days, the loaded train is top and tailed on the Bootle branch with the 'train loco' on the tail end when leaving the docks. This means when arrive at Tuebrook Sidings, the drag loco (ie Class 69) detaches and then Biomass train is ready and proceeds forward to Drax. Nowadays because of this arrangement and especially no Class 60's on the Drax trains anymore, the biomass trains do not need to use the Olive Mount Chord direct to the L&M line anymore.

Is that to avoid the chord or because the train needs banking to get out of the port?

 

[8A Rail]

Is that to avoid the chord or because the train needs banking to get out of the port?

It is because (especially now with Class 66's on them) operationally they need to top & tail because of the 2400 tonne load along with the relative gradients in the first couple of miles out of the docks. In the past and majority of the time, the Class 60's hauled them on their own and consequently took the direct route via Olive Mount Chord for the L&M line.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think he meant 'Tuebrook Sidings' as the outward train on the majority of occasions does reverse there as these days, the loaded train is top and tailed on the Bootle branch with the 'train loco' on the tail end when leaving the docks. This means when arrive at Tuebrook Sidings, the drag loco (ie Class 69) detaches and then Biomass train is ready and proceeds forward to Drax. Nowadays because of this arrangement and especially no Class 60's on the Drax trains anymore, the biomass trains do not need to use the Olive Mount Chord direct to the L&M line anymore.

Is the lack of 60s a permanent change, or just a temporary measure due to the number of 60s waiting for overhaul?