650 Carriages by 2014 - Chop Chop!

[159220]

Evening.

I took a short trip to Salisbury today from Southampton Central on FGW Class 158 and it got me thinking about the November 2010 announcement by the Gov. regarding the additional 650 carriages by 2014 (Not related to IEP/SET, NXEMU and Crossrail). What I was thinking, I wonder shall we still be getting 4 car Class 172s on the Portsmouth-Cardiff line. As I really do not see the benefit of putting Class 166s on the line (forgetting Gauge clearances!!) as they are still 3 car! This line needs 4 car, something that I know is supported by councils and forums across the line.

Thus I ask, what is happening regarding these additional 650 carriages by 2014. Yes the deadline is 3 years away, but wait a minute for this thought. The Class 172s were ordered in 2007! 4 years ago.

Now for more a board discussion on the other 602 carriages (Assuming we do get 172/4 * 12 as planned and needed).

Included in these numbers are there: extra Class 350s for Transpennine (Manchester to Scotland) and London Midland? Plus extra 450s for SWT (I bet they used the Class 458/460 re-fig to claim these are additional carriages!). As I would imagine the 450/350 production line is going to be closed soon in relation to newer designed Class 380s and the proposed dull Desiro City. Surely the Dft needs to order asap!

Would in these numbers also be included the recently tendered Meseryrail NXEMU? Scotrails Borders line by 2014 new stock? These rumours that Grand Central are going to buy cheap Chinese trains. Plus the same manufacturers suggestions that a UK operator is interested in their "Inter-urban" product (Personally I think they are hinting at Northerns Pacers).

Personally I can only really think of these additional carriages, I very much welcome a lively debate. We only have 3 years and well Bombardier need that long to make a train it seems.

 

[starrymarkb]

The proposed order was cancelled when GW Electrification was first proposed by Labour.


Plus it wasn't certain to be Bombardier 172s. There were also bids from CSR, Hyundai Rotem and CAF the latter 2 already make stock for Ireland (Both Republic and Northern), no bidder had been selected when the process was abandoned.

 

[Eng274]

Evening.

I took a short trip to Salisbury today from Southampton Central on FGW Class 158 and it got me thinking about the November 2010 announcement by the Gov. regarding the additional 650 carriages by 2014 (Not related to IEP/SET, NXEMU and Crossrail). What I was thinking, I wonder shall we still be getting 4 car Class 172s on the Portsmouth-Cardiff line. As I really do not see the benefit of putting Class 166s on the line (forgetting Gauge clearances!!) as they are still 3 car! This line needs 4 car, something that I know is supported by councils and forums across the line.

Thus I ask, what is happening regarding these additional 650 carriages by 2014. Yes the deadline is 3 years away, but wait a minute for this thought. The Class 172s were ordered in 2007! 4 years ago.

Now for more a board discussion on the other 602 carriages (Assuming we do get 172/4 * 12 as planned and needed).

Included in these numbers are there: extra Class 350s for Transpennine (Manchester to Scotland) and London Midland? Plus extra 450s for SWT (I bet they used the Class 458/460 re-fig to claim these are additional carriages!). As I would imagine the 450/350 production line is going to be closed soon in relation to newer designed Class 380s and the proposed dull Desiro City. Surely the Dft needs to order asap!

Would in these numbers also be included the recently tendered Meseryrail NXEMU? Scotrails Borders line by 2014 new stock? These rumours that Grand Central are going to buy cheap Chinese trains. Plus the same manufacturers suggestions that a UK operator is interested in their "Inter-urban" product (Personally I think they are hinting at Northerns Pacers).

Personally I can only really think of these additional carriages, I very much welcome a lively debate. We only have 3 years and well Bombardier need that long to make a train it seems.

the borders railway will be worked by 170s when it opens, but part of the build specification contract states that the new line should be easy to electrify should transport scotland wish to do so. They are playing it safe on this one, making it single track for large swathes, again with the option to double track in future if demand requires it.

 

[sprinterguy]

Over half of the 650 new carriages announced by the Government have already largely been accounted for:

“New vehicles on the national rail network in England and Wales that will be introduced after 6 May 2010 and up to May 2019:”
London Midland: 69 Class 172 vehicles
Chiltern: 8 Class 172 vehicles
Manchester to Scotland: 36 EMU vehicles
Virgin West Coast: 106 Class 390 vehicles (Extending 31 Pendolinos and four new trains)
NXEA: 120 Class 379 vehicles

So that’s already 339 carriages accounted for out of the total of 650. The Crossrail and Thameslink orders for 1200 and 600 vehicles respectively are, as you rightly say separate to this.

I think that Class 166 Turbos are a fantastic idea for the Cardiff to Portsmouth runs, though I would hope that the interiors would be changed to reflect the longer distance regional nature of the service. Having three carriage trains guaranteed will be an improvement on the mix of two, three and four carriage Sprinter formations that currently ply the route, and I’d imagine there’d be the opportunity for five carriage 166+165 formations, freeing up Sprinter units to either be cascaded elsewhere or to strengthen other services in the FGW area.

The Borders Railway will be operated by DMUs freed up by Scotrails’ ongoing electrification programme, of which Scotrail will have an ample supply once electrification is advanced and it can be expected that England and Wales will benefit from a trickle down of Scotrail DMUs, often predicted on this forum as being 158s, in the next few years.

We will see the Lancashire electrification completed before Pacers in the Northern franchise begin to be replaced by new DMUs (or more likely, new DMUs will replace Sprinter diagrams and there’ll be a shift down for 150s to take over Pacer diagrams, coupled more than likely with Pacers being directly replaced on a select few short distance commuter routes by tram-trains): I think it will be another five years before we start to see Pacers withdrawn. Any cascade of Scotrail DMUs to England and Wales would also help this process along, and so would the Cardiff Valleys electrification proposals, which could use refurbished class 315s in the interim, as has been mooted elsewhere on this forum and strikes me as a very good idea.

Out of the remaining unaccounted for new carriages, I would like to see a fleet of three carriage Class 378s for Merseyrail entering service from 2015, and in addition to the thirty six carriages (9 x 4 carriage trains? Or 12 x 3 carriage trains?) earmarked for Manchester to Scotland services, I’d like to see a follow on order of similar trains for Birmingham to Scotland, replacing the Voyagers which could go to XC: Ideally, a new build of nine carriage Pendolinos would be best suited to these services, but it would be cheaper to simply order a bigger number of Desiro type trains for both Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland: If I had my way, I’d be specifying five carriage Class 444 style AC electric Desiro trains (Yes the jigs have been destroyed but I’m sure constructing new could be done if required) for Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland, with 23m carriages and doors at the ends of the carriages, but looking at the order size mooted for the Manchester to Scotland build, this is looking unlikely.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Over half of the 650 new carriages announced by the Government have already largely been accounted for:

“New vehicles on the national rail network in England and Wales that will be introduced after 6 May 2010 and up to May 2019:”
London Midland: 69 Class 172 vehicles
Chiltern: 8 Class 172 vehicles
Manchester to Scotland: 36 EMU vehicles
Virgin West Coast: 106 Class 390 vehicles (Extending 31 Pendolinos and four new trains)
NXEA: 120 Class 379 vehicles

So that’s already 339 carriages accounted for out of the total of 650. The Crossrail and Thameslink orders for 1200 and 600 vehicles respectively are, as you rightly say separate to this.

I think that Class 166 Turbos are a fantastic idea for the Cardiff to Portsmouth runs, though I would hope that the interiors would be changed to reflect the longer distance regional nature of the service. Having three carriage trains guaranteed will be an improvement on the mix of two, three and four carriage Sprinter formations that currently ply the route, and I’d imagine there’d be the opportunity for five carriage 166+165 formations, freeing up Sprinter units to either be cascaded elsewhere or to strengthen other services in the FGW area.

The Borders Railway will be operated by DMUs freed up by Scotrails’ ongoing electrification programme, of which Scotrail will have an ample supply once electrification is advanced and it can be expected that England and Wales will benefit from a trickle down of Scotrail DMUs, often predicted on this forum as being 158s, in the next few years.

We will see the Lancashire electrification completed before Pacers in the Northern franchise begin to be replaced by new DMUs (or more likely, new DMUs will replace Sprinter diagrams and there’ll be a shift down for 150s to take over Pacer diagrams, coupled more than likely with Pacers being directly replaced on a select few short distance commuter routes by tram-trains): I think it will be another five years before we start to see Pacers withdrawn. Any cascade of Scotrail DMUs to England and Wales would also help this process along, and so would the Cardiff Valleys electrification proposals, which could use refurbished class 315s in the interim, as has been mooted elsewhere on this forum and strikes me as a very good idea.

Out of the remaining unaccounted for new carriages, I would like to see a fleet of three carriage Class 378s for Merseyrail entering service from 2015, and in addition to the thirty six carriages (9 x 4 carriage trains? Or 12 x 3 carriage trains?) earmarked for Manchester to Scotland services, I’d like to see a follow on order of similar trains for Birmingham to Scotland, replacing the Voyagers which could go to XC: Ideally, a new build of nine carriage Pendolinos would be best suited to these services, but it would be cheaper to simply order a bigger number of Desiro type trains for both Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland: If I had my way, I’d be specifying five carriage Class 444 style AC electric Desiro trains (Yes the jigs have been destroyed but I’m sure constructing new could be done if required) for Birmingham/Manchester to Scotland, with 23m carriages and doors at the ends of the carriages, but looking at the order size mooted for the Manchester to Scotland build, this is looking unlikely.

are the 380's also included in the list already accounted for?

 

[MacCookie]

are the 380's also included in the list already accounted for?

The Class 380s and any new units required for Borders and EGIP won't be included in any announcement by the DfT as transport in Scotland is a devolved issue.

Ewan

 

[tbtc]

What I was thinking, I wonder shall we still be getting 4 car Class 172s on the Portsmouth-Cardiff line. As I really do not see the benefit of putting Class 166s on the line (forgetting Gauge clearances!!) as they are still 3 car! This line needs 4 car, something that I know is supported by councils and forums across the line

Once Cardiff - Newport - Bristol - Bath is electrified (as part of the GWML electrification) I wonder what the business case would be for extending wires on to Salisbury/Southampton? Would probably make sense to do it at the same time as the Basingstoke - Exeter line. Would make a massive difference.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The Class 380s and any new units required for Borders and EGIP won't be included in any announcement by the DfT as transport in Scotland is a devolved issue.

Ewan

Thanks for clearing that up i wasnt quite sure

cheers

 

[sprinterguy]

are the 380's also included in the list already accounted for?

I have no idea. I’m finding it very difficult to unravel what out of the new train builds currently rolling off various production lines are included in the Governments’ promised “650 new carriages”. Those I mentioned above are those that were mentioned specifically in the DfT statement concerning new train orders this decade.

EDIT: Answered above. Good to get that cleared up!

 

[Drsatan]

Once Cardiff - Newport - Bristol - Bath is electrified (as part of the GWML electrification) I wonder what the business case would be for extending wires on to Salisbury/Southampton? Would probably make sense to do it at the same time as the Basingstoke - Exeter line. Would make a massive difference.

I agree, it would make sense, since it means that Cardiff-Portsmouth services could transfer to EMU operation. However, any trains would have to be dual voltage since the line east of Redbridge Junction is 3rd rail.

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree, it would make sense, since it means that Cardiff-Portsmouth services could transfer to EMU operation. However, any trains would have to be dual voltage since the line east of Redbridge Junction is 3rd rail.

I was thinking about this a while back, and (assuming the Eastleigh - Romsey line was done as well) I reckon the AC/DC changeover would be best done at Romsey! A nice simple track layout, all trains stop there (cos changeover is less complex while stopped in a station) and it would avoid dual electrifcation of more complex junction stations such as Salisbury, Southampton or Eastleigh. I'm thinking you wouldn't want to stop FGW's Cardiffs at Redbridge for instance, and the distance into Southampton is significant.

Eastleigh - Romsey would almost definitely be done at the same time, other wise normal diversions would not be possible for EMUs...

 

[RobShipway]

Class 444's would be ideal for this route as they are dual voltage anyway.

 

[moonrakerz]

Living on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route I really have given up hope of ever seeing any real improvement to the rolling stock along this busy route.

I should perhaps draw the OP's attention to what happened when FGW took over the franchise - all the existing 3 car 158s vanished and were replaced by worn out, hand me down, 2 car units from "'oop North "!

The route badly needs at least 4 car units, preferably 5, to allow for growth. At present a considerable number of "off peak" trains now have standing passengers - this really isn't on ! I don't think the traffic would justify the huge investment involved in electrification, this would need busy 8/9 car trains which the route certainly couldn't provide.
To me, a logical way forward would be to break the route into sections. At Bristol there is almost a total change of passengers on this route, only a small percentage actually travel on through Bristol. The busiest section of this route is South of Bristol TM - why not run (some of) the new (electric) service from S Wales into Bristol and connect with a new service from Bristol to Southampton/Portsmouth, run by longer, more modern (cleaner, fuel/efficient) DMUs. I believe the current service requires 11 sets of 158s, a shorter route would require fewer sets.

The main problem with this route is the apparent total lack of anyone looking at the "big picture" - which has been wonderfully "hidden" for the last couple of years by the new FGW timetables so that passengers can't really see what is available.

There are trains going to/from along parts of this route:
Portsmouth.
Southampton.
Warminster.
Salisbury.
Swindon.
Frome.
Westbury.
Bristol TM.
Gt Malvern.
Newport.
Brighton.
Worcester Foregate St
Worcester Shrub Hill
Cheltenham
Weymouth
Waterloo. (I have probably missed some others too !)

Apart from the Waterloo service (SWT), all these are operated by FGW, it is a shambles !

There are dedicated services from Warminster to Gt Malvern (WHY ??) - the train comes 4 miles from Westbury and then reverses and goes back the same way.
The return services don't go to Warminster, they go to Frome.
There are jam-packed 158s to Portsmouth closely followed, minutes later, by almost empty 150s to Southampton or Brighton - utter madness.
I must also agree with the Trainline ads, most rail passengers are like sheep ! The train that they want is Blue and goes to Cardiff and they get off at Bristol, the nice empty silver/grey/orange one which also goes to Bristol is ignored. But no one at the FGW managed stations makes an effort to tell anyone this.
Most of the through trains allegedly carry a trolley service, more often than not this cannot get through the train, so sales are minimal. How long before a "coffee" bean counter in FGW HQ decides that these trolleys are no longer viable ? He of course is oblivious to the fact that there a lots of people who might well buy a coffee if only the trolley could get to them.

In the days of steam there were 8/9 coach trains along here ! Must admit though, can't remember the frequency ...........

 

[MCR247]

Class 444's would be ideal for this route as they are dual voltage anyway.

Are they really? They must have that transparent panto fitted then

A 444 can be converted easily to a Dual voltage unit, but they aren't ATM

 

[ainsworth74]

The route badly needs at least 4 car units, preferably 5, to allow for growth. At present a considerable number of "off peak" trains now have standing passengers - this really isn't on !

Join the club! It's like that around Leeds and Manchester for certain and a couple of other places 'oop north' as well.

 

[RobShipway]

Are they really? They must have that transparent panto fitted then

A 444 can be converted easily to a Dual voltage unit, but they aren't ATM

You are correct they are not ATM, but do have space like class 450's for a pantograph to be fitted.....

 

[tbtc]

I should perhaps draw the OP's attention to what happened when FGW took over the franchise - all the existing 3 car 158s vanished and were replaced by worn out, hand me down, 2 car units from "'oop North "!

158s were replaced by 158s (albeit a coach shorter). You make it sound like we sent you Pacers or something

 

[swt_passenger]

You are correct they are not ATM, but do have space like class 450's for a pantograph to be fitted.....

Yes, they do - in principle there's no real reason why they were given 400 series numbers, as they are just as convertible as all those 377s that have an empty panto well and space for a transformer...

 

[moonrakerz]

Join the club! It's like that around Leeds and Manchester for certain and a couple of other places 'oop north' as well.

I suppose you got clapped out old stuff from "dahn saff" ? :cry:

 

[starrymarkb]

The TPX stuff was in better condition then the Canton 'maintained' Wessex units - it was the CT stuff from the middle that was in a real state.

FGW did the unit swap to save money - Porterbrook were offering significantly lower leases on the ex TPX 158s then Angel (who owned the Wessex fleet). Also having the fleet under one leaseco means they've all had the same mods.

SWT swapped their Scottish units for the same reason.

Best way to spot an Angel unit is the OTMR ducting in the passenger saloon which is enormous! Porterbrook units have everything under a luggage rack with relatively hidden ducting.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I suppose you got clapped out old stuff from "dahn saff" ? :cry:

didnt they go to swt?

we dont get clapped up stuff from down south. Not to my knowledge anyways

 

[Yew]

On a slightly relavent note, but slightly tangential,

Are there any pacers down south? If not, why not?

 

[Eng274]

They've spent most of their lives in the north (bar the FGW/wales stuff), just the same as the old slam-door Scalextric DC crap spent all of its life in the south

*quietly grabs coat and runs*

 

[ainsworth74]

Are there any pacers down south? If not, why not?

Apart from with FGW no. The reason to my mind would be that when the Pacers were being built in the mid-80s the only part of BR that was experiencing significant passenger growth was Inter-City and Network South East. Hence the investment went there, Regional Railways was left with a limited budget to do what it could to replace the ageing 1st Gen DMUs which led to the 14xs and 15xs. Of course if it had been known then that passenger numbers everywhere were going to sky rocket over the next 20+ years then I suspect Regional Railways would have been given funding to procure more 15xs (and more 3/4 car units) and fewer 14xs. However at the time the picture didn't look like that, with a decline that hard started in the 1950s only just starting to bottom out and reverse.

So in short the money went where the proven demand was and that is the South East (at least in my view, others may disagree ).

 

[jopsuk]

That's pretty much it- many of the 1st gen DMUs in the Network South East area weren't replaced until after privatisation (South Central sector, now running Turbostars), a lot of those that were were replaced by Networkers (NSE's pet project) on the Thames Valley and Chiltern, and the rest would pretty much be the 159s- which needed to be express units. The only places Pacers might have been suitable would have been the GOBLIN and perhaps (outside the NSE area) the Norfolk branchlines.

Basically, there was almost nowhere to use Pacers. Very little in the way of lightly used branchlines under threat of closure. Unlike the North.

 

[tempests1]

On a slightly relavent note, but slightly tangential,

Are there any pacers down south? If not, why not?

This is not a North/South Divide arguement but the South East i.e Wessex, Kent & Sussex Rail areas generate over 60% of all rail revenue in the UK, so of course they will get the lions share of the Investment, such as Crossrail & Thameslink. In the Morning Peak most of the twelve car EMU's are totally rammed by the time that they get into the London Terminus. For example on the Brighton Line, passengers who get on at Three Bridges will generally not get a seat. This is still quite a long way out of London. As an earlier poster stated the Slam Doors were on their last legs & were well overdue replacement in 2003 to 2005. I believe the 4 CEP's were over 50 years old! In a few cases the Pacer's in the mid 80's were they only think that saved some unprofitable lines from closure. If they ran them say from Reading to Gatwick Airport they would probably have to couple up 3 Pacer's to cope with the passenger numbers. A Southern example of economising was the Mid Hants Railway from Alton to Winchester Jcn, in the late 50's they had a DEMU service introduced to try & stave off closure by reducing costs for a while it seemed a winning formula as passenger levels increased but sadly it was still closed down in 1973 against a background of complaints.

 

[Rhydgaled]

On the Portsmouth service point some of you were disscusing, I think 166/165 would be unsuitable, partly due to being stuck with 3-car sets but mostly beacuse they have a commuter door layout, not a regional express one.

Personally I think a mix of 3-car and 4-car 158s are the way to go (I had a trip not long ago that was a 3-car and fairly lightly loaded, but a different trip (also 3-car) was a different story north of Warminster, so I think some trips need 4-car some need 3). If the money can be found for electrification, yes somthing like a 444 would be the way to go (though the front end of a 5-WES is better looking in my opinion).

As for making passengers change in Bristol, maybe. If the service from Bristol to Wales was operated with 158s and extended to Carmarthen (via the Swansea District Line, with alternate hour extensions to Fishguard) then yes. However if the service would continue to terminate at Cardiff then no, it should continue to be a through service from Cardiff to Portsmouth, otherwise tourists from the south would need to change trains twice (at Bristol and again at Cardiff) to reach Pembrokeshire.

 

[tbtc]

Are there any pacers down south? If not, why not?

I think the only places they could work would be to give the seven 142s from FGW to NXEA to run on their branches for the duties run by single 153s (a Pacer is around thirty metres, so would have more seats than a single unit), allowing the 153s to move to Northern - any extra units for Northern will be used as extra capacity on busy routes, so a 153 (with corridor connections) is arguably more use than a 142 (longer, but with no corridor connection).

Apart from that, I think any routes "down south" are too busy for Pacer operation

 

[jopsuk]

I think the only places they could work would be to give the seven 142s from FGW to NXEA to run on their branches for the duties run by single 153s (a Pacer is around thirty metres, so would have more seats than a single unit), allowing the 153s to move to Northern - any extra units for Northern will be used as extra capacity on busy routes, so a 153 (with corridor connections) is arguably more use than a 142 (longer, but with no corridor connection).

Apart from that, I think any routes "down south" are too busy for Pacer operation

They're also either too fast or electric.

 

[yorksrob]

Are there any pacers down south? If not, why not?

Certainly on the Southern Region we had a very reliable fleet of DEMU's which in spite of being old, didn't need replacing by the early 1980's.

They also shared many components with the Mk 1 EMU's some (but not all) of which were becoming life expired by the mid noughties, which made them easier to keep going.