6,500 more seats for Great Northern Passengers

[Aictos]

Commuters on the First Capital Connect 'Great Northern' route into London are set to benefit from more frequent and longer trains, thanks to more than £27m of Government funding, Transport Minister Chris Mole announced today.

The Great Northern route connects Moorgate and Kings Cross stations in London with stations to the north of the capital such as Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North.

The improvements - which will create around 6,500 extra seats on peak time services - have been made possible through the use of 41 extra carriages.

Chris Mole said:

"More people than ever in recent times are choosing to travel by train and it's vital we keep pace with this growth. We have pledged to introduce an extra 1,300 rail carriages onto the rail network and today's announcement is part of that commitment.

"These extra 41 carriages will enable passengers on these routes to travel in even greater comfort and ensure that the unprecedented growth in rail passenger numbers continues."

Neal Lawson, Managing Director at First Capital Connect, said:

"The extra trains will see significant increases in capacity for our customers, especially at the busiest times of day. We will be adding additional services and strengthening existing services to six, eight and twelve carriages long - bringing thousands of extra seats from this December onwards."

During peak hours, passengers will benefit from an extra 3,800 seats connecting Moorgate and an extra 2,750 connecting King's Cross.

The key improvements include:

* Four extra morning services into London Moorgate from either Gordon Hill or Welwyn Garden City.

* Three additional evening services to either Gordon Hill or Hertford North from London Moorgate.

* The lengthening of a number of existing services serving London Kings Cross or London Moorgate.

Full details of the improvements to services will available from First Capital Connect ahead of the December timetable launch. In the longer term the Government and train operator also plan to increase the number of 12-car services on the line following the completion of supporting infrastructure works including power supply upgrades and the lengthening of platforms at six stations including Royston, Letchworth, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy and Finsbury Park.

Notes for editors

1. Improvements on services to and from London King’s Cross will be implemented in three stages from December 2010 and progressively to December 2013, to allow for the necessary infrastructure upgrades to be completed.

2. Improvements on services to and from London Moorgate will be implemented in December 2010.

Press Enquires: 020 7944 3108
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Public Enquiries: 0300 330 3000
Department for Transport Website: http://www.dft.gov.uk

This truly is fantastic news for all who work and use the Great Northern services and should make two members on this forum happy to see more 321s coming to FCC myself included!

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/detai...aseID=412332&SubjectId=15&DepartmentMode=true

 

[PhilipW]

What are these 41 extra carriages and where are they coming from ?

 

[thefab444]

What are these 41 extra carriages and where are they coming from ?

Sounds like a mixture of units (presumably 313s and 321s); 41 is a prime number so it can't be one batch of units of the same length.

 

[WatcherZero]

We will be adding additional services and strengthening existing services to six, eight and twelve carriages long

would love to see a breakdown of that

 

[devon_metro]

Presumably these are simply cascades of old stock, and the government is spouting a load of propaganda about them spending loads of cash in providing capacity etc

Spin spin spin

 

[ChrisCooper]

Since it's talking about Moorgate it must be mostly the ex LO 313s. For 41 coaches there could be 11 of them, with 2 321s, or 7:5 split of 313:321 would be possible. Either that or 8 321s and 3 313s. If I'm right they are the only combinations off 3 and 4 car units that would make 41 cars in total.

 

[Aictos]

Since it's talking about Moorgate it must be mostly the ex LO 313s. For 41 coaches there could be 11 of them, with 2 321s, or 7:5 split of 313:321 would be possible. Either that or 8 321s and 3 313s. If I'm right they are the only combinations off 3 and 4 car units that would make 41 cars in total.

Well done, you've got the figures right - FCC are indeed getting 8 321s and 3 313s although I have no idea what units they are but I've been told not to expect 411 to 418 in line with 401 to 410 but rather something like 425, 427 etc...

* Three additional evening services to either Gordon Hill or Hertford North from London Moorgate

Now it's just me but I would like to see them terminate at Hertford North rather then Gordon Hill as you're serving Crews Hill, Cuffley, Bayford as well as Hertford North which means more trains for passengers wishing to head north of Gordon Hill, indeed this will offer Hertford Loop passengers a better choice in what train to use.


* Four extra morning services into London Moorgate from either Gordon Hill or Welwyn Garden City.

This should be allocated to three from Gordon Hill and one from Welwyn Garden City as you have the choice of semi fast and stopper services from Welwyn Garden City to both Kings Cross and Moorgate vs only Moorgate for Hertford loop passengers but also on the Hertford Loop from Gordon Hill onwards, the trains at that time look like sardine cans so starting three extra services from there will be better for the line's passengers.

 

[PhilipW]

Were FCC always going to get these extra 41 carriages ? If so then the Press Release today is just a re-issue of previously announced news. A true case of spin.

If FCC were not going to get them and now they are because there has been a change of plan, then obviously it is indeed good news for FCC and their passengers. However in this case there must be a parallel story, which I don't see, announcing that some other area which was expecting the 41 carriages is no longer going to receive them.

 

[87015]

Were FCC always going to get these extra 41 carriages ? If so then the Press Release today is just a re-issue of previously announced news. A true case of spin.

If FCC were not going to get them and now they are because there has been a change of plan, then obviously it is indeed good news for FCC and their passengers. However in this case there must be a parallel story, which I don't see, announcing that some other area which was expecting the 41 carriages is no longer going to receive them.

Yes its all spin, they have just decided to get fewer 313s and take on 321418/419/420 instead...

 

[Aictos]

Yes its all spin, they have just decided to get fewer 313s and take on 321418/419/420 instead...

Reason FCC is getting less 313s then originally planned is because Southern want them for their Coastway services to cascade the 377s back to London to extend their services to 10 cars thus meet a franchise commitment.

Still I'm very happy that we're getting extra 321s instead, would like to cascade the remaining 12 317s to the West Anglia route to help them run 12 cars and have them replace with 321s instead,

 

[PhilipW]

I am only an occasional traveller on the North London Line, but the last time I was there the 313 I travelled on was in a dreadful condition. I hope something is being done to them before they are cascaded to FCC. Quite frankly the one I was in looked at the end of its life. It was not in a fit state to pass on to anyone else.

 

[fgwrich]

What are these 41 extra carriages and where are they coming from ?

As already said above, the 313s are coming over from LOROL, Whilst The 321s are coming out of store from from (Knights Rail) Eastleigh...

The numbers of the 6 remaining units ill get next time im back at work...

 

[jon0844]

The 321 I came to work on today was obviously quite new, as it was completely blank - not even a simple stuck-on FCC logo on the outside. Nothing done to the interior, except probably route maps and safety posters.

Once they're refreshed, they're pretty nice trains - but it's a shame there's no more 313s coming as the announcement is pretty lame with regards to an improved Moorgate service - despite it being a major part of the press release.

Why? Because FCC wants to be able to offer a 15-minute service frequency throughout the day (which from Ally Pally in would therefore be pretty much every 7 minutes) - and this doesn't really enable that to happen. Besides the extra services mentioned, it should mean that all peak trains can be 6-car, and that's about it.

Obviously it's better than nothing, and generally speaking, the GN side isn't that bad for loadings now since the last timetable or two. However, the real announcement will be the Government giving approval for a new fleet of 378s to run to Moorgate, with control of the inner-suburban GN lines being handed over to London Overground.

Now THAT would be news!

 

[Lee_Again]

However, the real announcement will be the Government giving approval for a new fleet of 378s to run to Moorgate, with control of the inner-suburban GN lines being handed over to London Overground.

Now THAT would be news!

How about extending that new line from Highbury, through the tunnel (yes, I know its a single bore) to Finsbury Park and then on to Hertford & Welwyn; A new, cheap, Thameslink.

May need to spend some cash doubling that short tunnel and building a grade seperated junction to facilitate the movements, but other than that, quite simple really.

 

[DjU]

As already said above, the 313s are coming over from LOROL, Whilst The 321s are coming out of store from from (Knights Rail) Eastleigh...

The numbers of the 6 remaining units ill get next time im back at work...

The 8x 321 are 321406, 321407, 321408, 321409, 321410, 321418, 321419, 321420

(Although 321406 has been with FCC since November, 321410 since January and 321408 went to Doncaster to be painted a week or so ago)


The 3x 313s will likely be 313122, 313123, 313134 which are due to some of the last 313 off lease from LOROL, with 313101-313121 (minus 313118 ) being the 20 to go to Southern.

 

[jon0844]

How about extending that new line from Highbury, through the tunnel (yes, I know its a single bore) to Finsbury Park and then on to Hertford & Welwyn; A new, cheap, Thameslink.

Isn't there at least a plan to join up the new East London Line to Highbury one day?

Of course, that's probably just a plan to terminate trains there - not to be joined up to the north London line or GN routes.

 

[philjo]

I believe that ELL phase 2 was originally going to terminate at Finsbury Park using the exsiting link from the NLL line at Highbury, but unfortunately this got cut back to Highbury. (If I remember correctly from a previous article in Rail, they will use new bay platforms at Highbury)
Finsbury Park would make a better interchange with GN outer suburban services, especially at weekends when the Moorgate services don't run.
It would also help to relieve the moorgate services in peak hours.

 

[Aictos]

Seems a good idea but why not just have the NCL open Monday to Sat between 0500 and 0100 and open on Sundays between 7am and 0000?

What do our regular users of the NCL think of that proposal?

 

[philjo]

Going back to the original topic, on thinking about it I take it that the additional 321s will be used to free up some of the existing 313s for use on the Moorgate line.

There are several services to/from Kings Cross the peak current timetable that use 313s e.g. 06:48 and 07:20 Letchworth-Kings Cross and various Kings Cross-Welwyn GC services in the evening (some of which then form a semi-fast back to KX again) which don't need to use dual voltage units.
I take it that these will be substituted by the 321s to provide more capacity here running as 8 coaches instead of 6. These could possibly be formed instead of 317s to allow the 321s to take over some of the exisiting 317-operated services.
the 17:22 Kings cross-Cambridge stopper is currently only 4 coaches (317) & needs to become 8 coaches as it is always full & standing between Hatfield & welwyn north (where most of the reach coach get off), so don't know what the loading is like south of Hatfield. The equivalent service 30 minutes later is 8 coaches.

 

[jon0844]

You're absolutely right - I was a bit silly in not thinking of the fact they could move the 313s currently being used by having the extra 321s.

Isn't there a problem at one station that the 313 semi-fast service stops at when going from King's Cross though? I say this because I remember when they used 8-car 365s and had to have staff on the rear set to 'guard' the rear set of doors. This would mean having to run a 4-car instead of 6-car, or bring back staff (who were actually just RPIs), which could mean more problems.

 

[philjo]

I wasn't aware of that issue - the morning southbound services have had 8-coach 317 or 365 substitute for the 313s on several occasions in the past (also giving us declassified first class seating as the timetable shows these as having only standard accommodation )

The 16:57 out of Kings Cross to WGC is currently 6 coaches. When I join this service at Potters Bar it is very lightly loaded. I don't know how busy it is out of London, but I would imagine that a 4-coach service would suffice for this - the equivalent service 30 minutes later is shown in the timetable as being 4 coaches.
That would release 2 x 313 units to allow both the 16:53 and 17:08 Moorgate - WGC services to run as 6 coaches - both are only 3 coaches at the moment & I would imagine they are pretty crowded south of Finsbury Park !

 

[jon0844]

I can take any number of trains in the peak, sometimes leaving early - sometimes late.

I'll generally get the 1740 OLD - HAT, but might go and get the 1757 KGX - HAT, or go earlier and take the 1727 or 1657.

All of the trains will be fairly busy (but never anything like crush loaded - and many people stand becuase they choose to) and people gradually alight at the stopping stations until, as you say, by Potters Bar it's near empty - by Hatfield, I'd be surprised if more than 10 people stay on to WGC! (Presumably because there are faster services where WGC is the first or second stop!).

The problem is, they can't short form the train as it is so busy from the start.

I wish I could remember what station had the need for staff on the train; perhaps New Southgate, Oakleigh Park or New Barnet? It was only for trains going north. Perhaps there was work being done on the platform or something. Only someone for FCC would know exactly.

 

[traji00]

However, the real announcement will be the Government giving approval for a new fleet of 378s to run to Moorgate, with control of the inner-suburban GN lines being handed over to London Overground.

Now THAT would be news!

Don't think that could be feasible - If i remember correctly the Drayton Pk - Moorgate tunnels can't accommodate fullsize trains due to insufficient clearance, hence the 313s.

 

[Aictos]

Don't think that could be feasible - If i remember correctly the Drayton Pk - Moorgate tunnels can't accommodate fullsize trains due to insufficient clearance, hence the 313s.

Well you will be surprised to heard that 378s are cleared between Finsbury Park and Moorgate as I've been reliably informed that LOROL did some trials last year which were successful so a order of 378s is quite feasible.

 

[traji00]

Well you will be surprised to heard that 378s are cleared between Finsbury Park and Moorgate as I've been reliably informed that LOROL did some trials last year which were successful so a order of 378s is quite feasible.

My misunderstanding
So fullsize trains can fit, but the clearance issue referred to OHLE (can't remember where I told this but its on Wikipedia now too)

 

[yorkie]

Are there any loading figures for Great Northern route trains?

I've seen graphs showing passenger numbers on the EC services (the spikes just before/after the peak period is interesting; for example the 1900 off King's Cross is popular!) I guess something must exist for FCC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My misunderstanding
So fullsize trains can fit, but the clearance issue referred to OHLE (can't remember where I told this but its on Wikipedia now too)

The OHLE stops at Drayton Park. From there to Moorgate it's third rail.

 

[Aictos]

Are there any loading figures for Great Northern route trains?

I've seen graphs showing passenger numbers on the EC services (the spikes just before/after the peak period is interesting; for example the 1900 off King's Cross is popular!) I guess something must exist for FCC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OHLE stops at Drayton Park. From there to Moorgate it's third rail.

I'm sure the old BR hands can verify this but as far as I am aware, when BR electrified the ECML they wanted to use OHL down the NCL but there isn't enough clearance to do so, so the former LUL setup was retained with the 313s only using the 3rd rail.

As to graphs showing passenger numbers I would like to see them - I know there's a market for Hertfordshire residents between Hertford and Stevenage which is only served by a hourly service off peak which should be increased to a 30 minute service.

Not only do I say this as I work in Hertford but the local council agrees as well, sadly though FCC doesn't which although isn't their fault but the DfT and NR for not getting on with it and building a new platform with the existing Down Hertford being extended along the Down Slow all the way to the station.

So if the services were provided, I know they would be well used.

 

[87015]

Not only do I say this as I work in Hertford but the local council agrees as well, sadly though FCC doesn't which although isn't their fault but the DfT and NR for not getting on with it and building a new platform with the existing Down Hertford being extended along the Down Slow all the way to the station.

So if the services were provided, I know they would be well used.

If its all the fault of the nasty DfT, why don't FCC offer to put up the funding for it then?

 

[Aictos]

If its all the fault of the nasty DfT, why don't FCC offer to put up the funding for it then?

because you know as well as I do that as much as it would benefit everyone, it just isn't considered important enough to get done.

Even though the potential for improving the ECML and getting ready for the East West link at the same time would be there.

if this was Chiltern, then the work would have been done by now.

 

[wyvfe1]

I can take any number of trains in the peak, sometimes leaving early - sometimes late.

I'll generally get the 1740 OLD - HAT, but might go and get the 1757 KGX - HAT, or go earlier and take the 1727 or 1657.

All of the trains will be fairly busy (but never anything like crush loaded - and many people stand becuase they choose to) and people gradually alight at the stopping stations until, as you say, by Potters Bar it's near empty - by Hatfield, I'd be surprised if more than 10 people stay on to WGC! (Presumably because there are faster services where WGC is the first or second stop!).

The problem is, they can't short form the train as it is so busy from the start.

I wish I could remember what station had the need for staff on the train; perhaps New Southgate, Oakleigh Park or New Barnet? It was only for trains going north. Perhaps there was work being done on the platform or something. Only someone for FCC would know exactly.

I know New Southgate has problems with trains stopping on the fast lines due to no mirror's, sometimes when a semi-fast to Kings Cross is on the fast line it doesn't stop even though it's timetabled due to the missing mirror.