5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[43096]

Brake vans provided open space, but they weren't designed specifically for bikes, unless I missed something?

No, they were far more flexible than that...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a bit of both. In the event of there being more bikes than spaces, priority will be given to those who have purchased Highland Explorer tickets. So you pay extra to maximise your chances of being able to take your bike on a given service. It’s all explained on the FAQ page here https://www.scotrail.co.uk/scotrail-highland-explorer

That's truly appalling.

What precisely is wrong with conventional bicycle reservations?

This is just bluster, faff and stupidity from the marketing department. Richmond seating at Standard pitch at the back of a guard's van as a premium service? Utterly, utterly laughable.

I guess they are just hoping for enough gullible tourists to use it once.

I have just read the page you linked to, and it seems very clear that these are conventional, free bicycle reservations, and the extra charge is for the collapsing Richmond at the back of the cycle van, with a free dose of Class 153 fishy niff. I guess there might well be enough gullible tourists to "upgrade" (LNR seems to find them from somewhere with their similarly inferior "premium" offering) but at least cyclists aren't forced to pay extra, which would be outrageous.

This bit however:

When you purchase a Standard Class rail ticket on this service, you will be given the option to reserve a cycle space on board, subject to availability. The 20 cycle spaces on the ScotRail Highland Explorer carriage will be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis, with priority given to those who have booked a Highland Explorer ticket - specifically for this carriage.

There are a further 6 cycle spaces available on the Class 156 carriages, which make up the rest of the train.

...makes no sense, as it is either first come first served or priority is given, it can't be both! I get the impression they mean those without the premium tickets will be asked to use the spaces in the 156s first until they are full.

 

[Iskra]

That's truly appalling.

What precisely is wrong with conventional bicycle reservations?

This is just bluster, faff and stupidity from the marketing department. Richmond seating at Standard pitch at the back of a guard's van as a premium service? Utterly, utterly laughable.

I guess they are just hoping for enough gullible tourists to use it once.

I have just read the page you linked to, and it seems very clear that these are conventional, free bicycle reservations, and the extra charge is for the collapsing Richmond at the back of the cycle van, with a free dose of Class 153 fishy niff. I guess there might well be enough gullible tourists to "upgrade" (LNR seems to find them from somewhere with their similarly inferior "premium" offering) but at least cyclists aren't forced to pay extra, which would be outrageous.

It's also a guaranteed table seat, which may appeal to some, especially to groups and families.

I can see why some people may pay to choose to sit in the 153, but I think Scotrail need to expect a backlash from those who are incorrectly expecting a more refined first class style product.

Personally, having done the Cumbrian Coast Carlisle-Lancaster and Peterborough-Doncaster on 153's, I'd pay a tenner not to sit in the 153 for a journey of the length Glasgow-Oban.

Overall, it is worth remembering that they are providing welcome additional capacity, which is better than not doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also a guaranteed table seat, which may appeal to some, especially to groups and families.

It's not, there are some airline seats. More chance of one I suppose.

I can see why some people may pay to choose to sit in the 153, but I think Scotrail need to expect a backlash from those who are incorrectly expecting a more refined first class style product.

Personally, having done the Cumbrian Coast Carlisle-Lancaster and Peterborough-Doncaster on 153's, I'd pay a tenner not to sit in the 153 for a journey of the length Glasgow-Oban.

153s don't really bother me and the view out is really quite good as like with Pacers the window pillars are very narrow.

Overall, it is worth remembering that they are providing welcome additional capacity, which is better than not doing so.

Certainly - it's the marketing approach I have a beef with, not the whole idea (of a bike coach and 20 ish more seats) which is itself quite good.

 

[Iskra]

It's not, there are some airline seats. More chance of one I suppose.



153s don't really bother me and the view out is really quite good as like with Pacers the window pillars are very narrow. However, Richmond seats do - they are just awful. And it's not just me and my Grammer love-in - I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they are good. And if you're charging extra, the product really does need to be genuinely good. For instance, would a door between the van area and the seats have been that hard?

I would certainly pay a tenner not to sit in a Richmond seat for that long. They're uncomfortable for half an hour.

Really, if they were going to do this, they should at least have gone for the standard of the SWR 444 refurbs*, if not 2+1 seating.

* Pic: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/travelling-with-us/onboard/~/media/a6521408e13a44109f2b6af012475fec.ashx?h=100%&w=100%&hash=B4683C24EA78CB89652738760484CABEBF4C7FDB&hash=B4683C24EA78CB89652738760484CABEBF4C7FDB



Certainly - it's the marketing approach I have a beef with, not the whole idea (of a bike coach and 20 ish more seats) which is itself quite good.

Ah okay.

I don't mind 153's for short journeys, I actually quite like them and prefer them over 150's, but not for hours at a time.

 

[Techniquest]

I did find it confusing how it's first come first served, but also priority to those with Highland Rover supplements. I'm not quite sure how that makes sense. If there's two people wanting to board, with only one space, and only one cyclist has the supplement paid, then that one would get priority.

I have noticed no mention of the price of the supplement. £10 or less, and I'm in, preferably nearer £5. I would like to know pretty soon how much the extra fare will be, as I will soon be beginning plans for my Scottish cycling adventures. If the extra fare is more than £10, I am currently happily willing to change plans and avoid the WHL, at least in one direction or the other, and book space on different trains. Currently I have several Scottish maps out, with more to order from Sustrans tomorrow, as a very preliminary planning session.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did find it confusing how it's first come first served, but also priority to those with Highland Rover supplements. I'm not quite sure how that makes sense. If there's two people wanting to board, with only one space, and only one cyclist has the supplement paid, then that one would get priority.

Yet it says cycle reservations are compulsory - which means they can hardly be turning people away.

I have noticed no mention of the price of the supplement. £10 or less, and I'm in, preferably nearer £5. I would like to know pretty soon how much the extra fare will be, as I will soon be beginning plans for my Scottish cycling adventures. If the extra fare is more than £10, I am currently happily willing to change plans and avoid the WHL, at least in one direction or the other, and book space on different trains. Currently I have several Scottish maps out, with more to order from Sustrans tomorrow, as a very preliminary planning session.

I believe it's £10.

 

[Techniquest]

Yet it says cycle reservations are compulsory - which means they can hardly be turning people away.



I believe it's £10.

Hopefully soon it'll be confirmed by ScotRail, £10 is reasonable. £20 for a return trip is acceptable for a leisure trip, and as I've mentioned already this week it's the peace of mind that swings it for me.

The confusion on the spaces thing will hopefully be picked up by them too, and things will be clarified. Perhaps it's a case of 'well this cyclist has paid extra to be in this part of the train, unfortunately you haven't so you will have to take space in another carriage as this one will now be full'. With spaces in the 153 still free to use if there are any unallocated?

Paying a supplement, personally, is not a huge deal. I'm not regularly in that part of the world, so I'd only be there when on a planned well in advance trip. If I was local, and going on a last-minute trip due to a forecast change (that happens to me a lot!) then it would be a relatively local journey and I'd not be willing to pay the supplement. £10 to basically tell ScotRail "I'm boarding the 0520 Oban to Glasgow, I have a bike with me and I want to sit in your new bike carriage with a reserved seat" is fine, and to be honest I reckon a fair few people will be inspired to go adventuring on the WHL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's paying a supplement for a lower quality travelling environment than the rest of the train I have a problem with. I have the same problem with LNR's sham "First Class".

Decent 2+1 seating and I'd be in, though, even for a much higher supplement.

 

[InOban]

Did I read somewhere that you get free refreshments with your Explorer ticket?

 

[hexagon789]

Did I read somewhere that you get free refreshments with your Explorer ticket?

Don't see anything in the link mentioning that; also isn't catering still suspended?

 

[Carntyne]

Heaven forbid the train operator tries to raise income after spending a not-insignificant amount bringing in these trains, refurbishing them, and training their crew.

 

[XAM2175]

It's paying a supplement for a lower quality travelling environment than the rest of the train I have a problem with. I have the same problem with LNR's sham "First Class".

So treat it as a supplement for being able to supervise your bike whilst in transit without having to stand in the vestibule.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So treat it as a supplement for being able to supervise your bike whilst in transit without having to stand in the vestibule.

That's even worse - tending towards a protection racket.

Those seats should be reserved for booked cyclists. Proper First Class (2+1 and window aligned) should be fitted to the 156s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2021 ==

Heaven forbid the train operator tries to raise income after spending a not-insignificant amount bringing in these trains, refurbishing them, and training their crew.

I'd be fine with it if it wasn't such an utterly awful product. I'd pay a lot more than £10 for a proper First Class seat around a big picture window in one of the 156s.

 

[XAM2175]

That's even worse - tending towards a protection racket.

Is it not better than the options available on most other long-distance services?

Those seats should be reserved for cyclists. Proper First Class (2+1 and window aligned) should be fitted to the 156s.

I completely agree with your oft-stated position that decent first on the route would be well received, though I presume you mean to say that conversion should be performed to half of each 156 set rather than all of it.

I would also question what effect doing so would have on the diagramming of the units, as to the best of my knowledge there's no captive pool of 156s for the WHL.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not better than the options available on most other long-distance services?

I can't think of any other train where you have to pay an extra £10 to sit near where your bicycle is stored, no.

Pendolinos even have the end few rows in coach A reserved for cyclists, which is ideal.

I completely agree with your oft-stated position that decent first on the route would be well received, though I presume you mean to say that conversion should be performed to half of each 156 set rather than all of it.

A couple of window bays in each unit would do nicely.

I would also question what effect doing so would have on the diagramming of the units, as to the best of my knowledge there's no captive pool of 156s for the WHL.

Perhaps there should be.

 

[adrock1976]

Is it not better than the options available on most other long-distance services?


I completely agree with your oft-stated position that decent first on the route would be well received, though I presume you mean to say that conversion should be performed to half of each 156 set rather than all of it.

I would also question what effect doing so would have on the diagramming of the units, as to the best of my knowledge there's no captive pool of 156s for the WHL.

The only 156s of the Scotrail fleet that can be used on the WHL are the ones that have been fitted with the RETB equipment (including the famous 156478).

Scotrail also has a fleet of 156s without the RETB equipment.

 

[Journeyman]

The only 156s of the Scotrail fleet that can be used on the WHL are the ones that have been fitted with the RETB equipment (including the famous 156478).

Scotrail also has a fleet of 156s without the RETB equipment.

RETB units do show up elsewhere, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

RETB units do show up elsewhere, of course.

I doubt it'd be disastrous if a 1st-fitted unit did, you'd just declassify it.

 

[Journeyman]

I doubt it'd be disastrous if a 1st-fitted unit did, you'd just declassify it.

Well, yeah, of course. Happens all the time with 170s.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I did find it confusing how it's first come first served, but also priority to those with Highland Rover supplements. I'm not quite sure how that makes sense. If there's two people wanting to board, with only one space, and only one cyclist has the supplement paid, then that one would get priority.

I have noticed no mention of the price of the supplement. £10 or less, and I'm in, preferably nearer £5. I would like to know pretty soon how much the extra fare will be, as I will soon be beginning plans for my Scottish cycling adventures. If the extra fare is more than £10, I am currently happily willing to change plans and avoid the WHL, at least in one direction or the other, and book space on different trains. Currently I have several Scottish maps out, with more to order from Sustrans tomorrow, as a very preliminary planning session.

With 26 or 32 bike spaces on the train between the 153 and either one or two 156 units, surely the risk of running out of bike spaces is pretty minimal?

In my experience most trains can take a couple of bikes beyond the stated capacity too. So the actual capacity is probably higher.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2021 ==

So treat it as a supplement for being able to supervise your bike whilst in transit without having to stand in the vestibule.

Why not just lock it up?

 

[marks87]

With 26 or 32 bike spaces on the train between the 153 and either one or two 156 units, surely the risk of running out of bike spaces is pretty minimal?

In my experience most trains can take a couple of bikes beyond the stated capacity too. So the actual capacity is probably higher.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2021 ==


Why not just lock it up?

The last time I travelled with my bike on ScotRail (and LNER) I was instructed not to lock it to the train.

 

[yorkie]

Why not just lock it up?

Train companies don't allow this

 

[LowLevel]

The last time I travelled with my bike on ScotRail (and LNER) I was instructed not to lock my bike to the train.

Standard rule though not enforced. I once had a chap lock his bike to my train on it's previous journey and he put it in the wrong half of the train on a splitting service. He moved but didn't think to move his bike. He ended up in Thetford and his bike ended up in Crewe and I had to get the depot staff and BTP to come out and break the bike lock off, having tried and failed to do it myself.

Also to do with nefarious intent on the part of certain Irish groups in the 80s.

 

[trebor79]

It's paying a supplement for a lower quality travelling environment than the rest of the train I have a problem with. I have the same problem with LNR's sham "First Class".

Decent 2+1 seating and I'd be in, though, even for a much higher supplement.

The seats are OK, it's the appalling noise level in a 153 that would put me off. Hopefully whoever designed the refurb has thought to put the big storage end over the engine and the seating end in the quieter (but still far too noisy for a modern train) part.
And there's that unique class 153 musty smell, I wonder if they've managed to banish that?

 

[Neptune]

The seats are OK, it's the appalling noise level in a 153 that would put me off. Hopefully whoever designed the refurb has thought to put the big storage end over the engine and the seating end in the quieter (but still far too noisy for a modern train) part.
And there's that unique class 153 musty smell, I wonder if they've managed to banish that?

Always found it noisier working from the number 2 end of a 153 which is where the seats are.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The seats are OK, it's the appalling noise level in a 153 that would put me off. Hopefully whoever designed the refurb has thought to put the big storage end over the engine and the seating end in the quieter (but still far too noisy for a modern train) part.
And there's that unique class 153 musty smell, I wonder if they've managed to banish that?

The engine is under the seating area

 

[GLC]

...makes no sense, as it is either first come first served or priority is given, it can't be both! I get the impression they mean those without the premium tickets will be asked to use the spaces in the 156s first until they are full.

It can be both. It’s first come, first served as policy, until there are more bikes to carry than spaces, at which point priority is then assigned based on what tickets have been purchased, to resolve the conflict. In the event that there are more priority ticket holder with bikes than spaces, the spaces would then be allocated on a first come first serve basis amongst those with the Highland Explorer ticket (although I would hope the booking systems would prevent this from ever being an issue I suppose) Will this mean that there will be some passengers who book their bike on under a regular ticket, only to be informed that they can no longer take their bike, as all bike spaces have been allocated to Highland Explorer customers? Undoubtably yes, this is the risk you take by buying a cheaper ticket.

Taking a bike to Oban without a Highland Explorer ticket therefore becomes akin to flying on a standby ticket. Efforts will be made to accommodate you, but don’t be surprised if there is no room for you. Want to guarantee your place? Then pay for the appropriate (albeit more expensive) ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can be both. It’s first come, first served as policy, until there are more bikes to carry than spaces, at which point priority is then assigned based on what tickets have been purchased, to resolve the conflict.

If cycle reservations are mandatory, as it says they are, exactly how can that arise? (It can't).

 

[Killingworth]

The day has almost arrived. Let's assume for a minute they're a success with users, albeit it noisy and uncomfortable. 153's will now be a challenge to keep running as advertised - why do HSTs spring to mind?

What follows when it's accepted they're clapped out, as they surely will be in 10 years time? Lots of cycles or skis to go in a new unit developed from the experience about to be gained? Fun and games ahead operationally and commercially.