5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Clansman]

The difference is you don't need to pay someone to stand there for the entire journey, so you've already cut out what's probably the most expensive bit of running it.

Touché. That thought never even entered my mind there.

 

[6Gman]

The practicality of vending machines on trains has been discussed on here at length in the past.

There are difficulties.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The practicality of vending machines on trains has been discussed on here at length in the past.

There are difficulties.

One big issue is that vending machines on platforms are always ridiculously expensive. The same applies to buffets or trollies, but people are more likely to pay over-the-odds if there's a person doing the selling. With a vending machine, a customer will think "why is it so expensive when it's just a machine?"

They'd expect a machine to be cheaper than a trolley, but we all know that it wouldn't be- so if it cut costs, that difference would be pocketed by the operator.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Vending machines also have the advantage over trolleys that they can usually provide a cold drink which is actually cold.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vending machines also have the advantage over trolleys that they can usually provide a cold drink which is actually cold.

Done right a trolley could do that. Options would be a 12V battery powered fridge (and water heater) or a trolley dock for it to be plugged in when not being pushed in order to cool the fridge/heat the water. Or even just have an on board fridge to put a drinks "module" in - they don't warm up that quickly.

 

[underbank]

Because there's at seat catering on the vast majority of long distance services?

"Long distance" maybe, but not long duration. There are plenty of routes where you can be stuck on a Pacer/Sprinter for 2/3 hours without any catering facilities, not even a trolley. Vending machines would be an ideal solution to slow services.

 

[takno]

Vending machines also have the advantage over trolleys that they can usually provide a cold drink which is actually cold.

Yup, an unparalleled range of really chilly non-alcoholic drinks is just what you need to see you through the Scottish winter!

 

[DPWH]

Yup, an unparalleled range of really chilly non-alcoholic drinks is just what you need to see you through the Scottish winter!

Particularly Irn-Bru?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Particularly Irn-Bru?

I love the way when you go into a Scottish supermarket that there is an entire aisle of orange cans and bottles of various kinds!

 

[James James]

Done right a trolley could do that. Options would be a 12V battery powered fridge (and water heater) or a trolley dock for it to be plugged in when not being pushed in order to cool the fridge/heat the water. Or even just have an on board fridge to put a drinks "module" in - they don't warm up that quickly.

The low-tech airplane solution is to pack it all in ice. Keeps drinks plenty cool for many hours, but also assumes you can restock the ice from time to time.

 

[scotraildriver]

I suspect it's a weight issue. I offered once to lift a trolley off a train as the ramp was broken - bad mistake. They weigh a ton!

 

[DenmarkRail]

The practicality of vending machines on trains has been discussed on here at length in the past.

There are difficulties.

Vending machines also have the advantage over trolleys that they can usually provide a cold drink which is actually cold.

We have vending machines on the Oresundtrains in Denmark... They work relatively well, and it helps avoid the need for a member of staff, and needing to cut through commuters to get food / drink.

 

[mark-h]

The low-tech airplane solution is to pack it all in ice

The more expensive method is to use "Dry Ice" (solid CO_2) although this is mainly used for perishable food rather than chilling drinks.

 

[Altnabreac]

I really think the future of at seat service on shorter trains like those used on Scotrail is to do away with trolleys and use an app based ordering service using the onboard WiFi supplemented by a staff member taking orders walking through the train.

On a four-six coach train having a central catering area with fridges hot water supplies and possibly even a microwave allows a wider selection of food, better service and easier for the staff than dragging the trolley around. The distances to take food to tables as it is ordered are relatively small.

Paper menus on each table can advertise the stock and explain to customers how to order. App would also reduce cash handling and make it more likely people will order food.

 

[mde]

I really think the future of at seat service on shorter trains like those used on Scotrail is to do away with trolleys and use an app based ordering service using the onboard WiFi supplemented by a staff member taking orders walking through the train.

On a four-six coach train having a central catering area with fridges hot water supplies and possibly even a microwave allows a wider selection of food, better service and easier for the staff than dragging the trolley around. The distances to take food to tables as it is ordered are relatively small.

Paper menus on each table can advertise the stock and explain to customers how to order. App would also reduce cash handling and make it more likely people will order food.

That could certainly work on the HST, but, I doubt they will roll out such a service on the conventional DMUs (e.g. 156, 158) - a kitchen would take up too much space that can be filled with seats (or luggage).

I do agree about app based ordering though, if it can handle things like the payment then even better - less faff for the catering crew taking orders as they'd have fewer elongated transactions (thanks to the woeful payment terminals in use) and could focus more on customer service.

As for the paper based menus - these do already exist and can sometimes be seen on the 170 (it's a little booklet, based roughly on this PDF), but, aren't always placed on the tables.

 

[The_Engineer]

All this talk of catering should be on a new thread, not here.....

 

[mde]

All this talk of catering should be on a new thread, not here.....

Agreed - mods, unless perhaps the idea is to pop a kitchen on the 153 on the end of a 156 consist? I mean, it *could* work, but, it does seem like a waste of the space being added.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed - mods, unless perhaps the idea is to pop a kitchen on the 153 on the end of a 156 consist? I mean, it *could* work, but, it does seem like a waste of the space being added.

You could make a killing on posh meals on the WHL in peak tourist season. Though a 153 might be stretching "posh".

I really think we undermarket these lines. First Class would similarly be money for old rope.

ScotRail need to look at what Switzerland does, not just slightly posh up some Class 158s. A Scottish "Glacier Express" would make an absolute packet. Apply the Sleeper style marketing to the day service, make a fortune on tourist First Class and posh nosh, and have a decent Standard for the locals.

 

[mde]

ScotRail need to look at what Switzerland does, not just slightly posh up some Class 158s. A Scottish "Glacier Express" would make an absolute packet. Apply the Sleeper style marketing to the day service, make a fortune on tourist First Class and posh nosh, and have a decent Standard for the locals.

No disagreement, the stock on those lines really doesn't do the scenery justice - the problem is any move to substantially increase the quality would be political suicide unless the prices remained the same, and it seems unlikely that they would.

It'd be very popular with tourists mind you, but, it's the complaints from locals would perhaps dissuade anything other than an occasional special service - especially as we're not that far off another election

 

[Bletchleyite]

No disagreement, the stock on those lines really doesn't do the scenery justice - the problem is any move to substantially increase the quality would be political suicide unless the prices remained the same, and it seems unlikely that they would.

That's why I propose First Class panoramic coaches for the tourists. They'd snap it up. No reason to downgrade Standard nor to increase the prices for that (though equally no reason not to offer the nosh for sale there too!)

 

[mde]

That's why I propose First Class panoramic coaches for the tourists. They'd snap it up. No reason to downgrade Standard nor to increase the prices for that (though equally no reason not to offer the nosh for sale there too!)

Going (more!) off topic here - but, if SRPS would get on with accessibility mods they could be doing these types of runs and make a killing.

 

[HLE]

I think that there should also be a caged off area of the 153 for people travelling with animals to leave their pets. It wouldn't be known as a dogbox for nothing!

Brilliant. A dog in No.2 end cab would be a photo worth seeing (if ironic)

 

[Class83]

No disagreement, the stock on those lines really doesn't do the scenery justice - the problem is any move to substantially increase the quality would be political suicide unless the prices remained the same, and it seems unlikely that they would.

It'd be very popular with tourists mind you, but, it's the complaints from locals would perhaps dissuade anything other than an occasional special service - especially as we're not that far off another election

A HST with a disproportionate amount of 1st class and a full catering vehicle would be ideal, Scotrail will have a depot for them anyway.

Apologies it's OT, but there will be luggage space in the power cars.

 

[theblackwatch]

I see that according to wnxx, 6x 153s are likely to be moving up from GWR to Northern at the end of the month. Not sure if 5 of these are the ones destined for the ScotRail 156 strengthening project.

 

[broadgage]

Done right a trolley could do that. Options would be a 12V battery powered fridge (and water heater) or a trolley dock for it to be plugged in when not being pushed in order to cool the fridge/heat the water. Or even just have an on board fridge to put a drinks "module" in - they don't warm up that quickly.

A 12 volt battery powered water heater is not practical. A large 12 volt leisure battery contains about 1KWH of electricity, enough to heat to boiling point only a few cups of water. The battery is very heavy. A large battery as might be found in an off grid home can certainly supply a kettle or other water boiling device.
The electrical system of a vehicle with the engine running can supply enough energy, but a portable battery can not supply enough energy to boil useful volumes of water.
12 volt fridges with a high efficiency compressor are readily available but very expensive.

 

[James James]

A 12 volt battery powered water heater is not practical. A large 12 volt leisure battery contains about 1KWH of electricity, enough to heat to boiling point only a few cups of water. The battery is very heavy. A large battery as might be found in an off grid home can certainly supply a kettle or other water boiling device.
The electrical system of a vehicle with the engine running can supply enough energy, but a portable battery can not supply enough energy to boil useful volumes of water.
12 volt fridges with a high efficiency compressor are readily available but very expensive.

I have no idea how it's implemented - but trolleys with espresso machines exist. Probably multiple batteries. (And espressos are only about 30 ml so the energy usage isn't all that higt.)

 

[TEW]

I see that according to wnxx, 6x 153s are likely to be moving up from GWR to Northern at the end of the month. Not sure if 5 of these are the ones destined for the ScotRail 156 strengthening project.

GWR 153s (Angel Trains Units)
At Northern currently: 305, 373, 380
For Northern: 370, 377
For EMT: 318, 368, 372, 382
The 6 for Northern/EMT are the ones due to move at the end of the month.
The 5 at Northern will then transfer to Scotrail at some point.

The remaining 5 GWR 153s, the Porterbrook units (325, 329, 333, 361, 369), remain at GWR for now, and transfer to Wales & Borders next year.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So this may have been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but why the hell are DMUs being converted to luggage vans when we currently have a shortage of DMUs and services in GWR land are being regularly short formed because of that?

 

[InOban]

Because it's not viable to give them PRM modifications. Lots of dmus are being released over the next twelve months as electrification projects are finally completed.

 

[theblackwatch]

GWR 153s (Angel Trains Units)
At Northern currently: 305, 373, 380
For Northern: 370, 377
For EMT: 318, 368, 372, 382
The 6 for Northern/EMT are the ones due to move at the end of the month.
The 5 at Northern will then transfer to Scotrail at some point.

The remaining 5 GWR 153s, the Porterbrook units (325, 329, 333, 361, 369), remain at GWR for now, and transfer to Wales & Borders next year.

Thanks for clearing that up!